I do not see anything in the data list which is new for 1.60 (rev e0 of the datalist). I'm comparing the 1.60 version to the 1.2 data list. Nothing new for "cycle" or "xa control". The list isn't always kept up to date with new features. I also do not see anything mentioned in the "nf" (new feature) guide.

Not sure what's going on - but you may want to send 1-performance user file (X7U) with the performance to Yamaha for them to take a look if it's something proprietary.

That I can tell groups with wave cycle do not allow for ordering to go in reverse - only that ordering can be offset by group. With each group getting to start together.

Reference: https://yamahasynth.com/forum/is-it-possible-to-do-roundrobin-like-drumkits-with-xa-random

If 8 elements were the same group and set to cycle, then this would result in 1 then 2 then 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 (... and back to 1)

Then you get the 1+(first element of group 2)+(first element of group 3 ...) and so on so multiple elements can sound at the same time from different groups. Each in order from lowest element first to highest element number last within that group.

It's difficult for me to see how the order would result in reverse ordering -- but maybe I'm missing something.

Thanks Jason,

When Montage is used completely in standalone mode, I cannot reproduce the issue described above. I started to think it was a one-off fluke of a situation. However, today when working with Cubase and the Montage, the problem has reproduced. This appears to be some sort of MIDI issue.

Here's the situation. There are three parts in this performance. Parts 1 and 3 have 5 elements where each element is in Group 1 and XA Control Cycle is turned on. So when Montage is used standalone, for each key press (keyboard control is on for Parts 1 - 3), they each cycle through the elements in forward order (1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5). For what it's worth, Part 2 is a saw wave I use with the vocoder effect to modulate it with the output from Part 1.

Now, in Cubase, I do the following:

1. Create a new MIDI track with midi out routed to Montage Port 1 Channel 1. That should target Part 1 of the performance.
2. Set the Record Enable button on the new track to OFF. On Montage, in MIDI setup, enable local control and set MIDI IN/OUT to MIDI (thus isolating Montage from Cubase MIDI control).
3. At this point, Part 1 behaves as expected. The elements fire in forward order with each key press.
4. Now, in Montage MIDI setup, set MIDI IN/OUT to USB and turn off local control. Also, engage the Record Enable button for the track created in step #1.
5. At this point, Part 1's behavior is different. The elements fire in the order of 1 -> 4 -> 2 -> 5 -> 3 with each key press. It's not random. It will repeat the order just mentioned.

If I set the channel for the track created in #1 to "Any", Part 1 and Part 3 behave as expected. Elements fire in forward order.

"Any" is great if I was recording from Montage, but in this work flow, I didn't want to do that. Instead, I was fabricating MIDI tracks in Cubase. I wanted to created three identical midi tracks with the same note information and target channels 1 - 3 respectively, thus targeting Parts 1 - 3 of the Performance. I would have expected that to be the same as if I was playing the Montage keyboard in standlone mode where Parts 1 - 3 have keyboard control enabled, but it's not the same. If I do this, and then play those three tracks simultaneously, the elements of Parts 1 and 3 fire in different orders which messes up the whole effect.

What do you think?

Trey

When MIDI tripling occurs you get the odd behavior... remove the triple note triggering and things return to normal. It sounds like you are funneling three Part's worth of data and sending back to MONTAGE on a single channel.

You have three Parts, if you have activated a MIDI Track set to echo the notes back to Montage on a Channel, when you play a Key three note-ons were generated. One on each channel 1, 2, and 3... but you are echoing them all back to MONTAGE on a single channel.

The channel setting on a Cubase Track rechannelizes all the recorded data to that setting.
Each MIDI Track in Cubase receives all incoming MIDI data... if you've created three tracks they all will record the same thing... three MIDI events for each Note-on, one on each Channel. But then each will force all notes back out on that single channel.

So 1, 4, 2, 5, 3, 1, 4, 2, 5, 3, etc. will be the cycle. Three steps apart in a five Element cycle.

You want to create just one MIDI Track. Set the single MIDI Track so the channel = "ANY"
This allows each Note-on to be echoed back to MONTAGE on the channel it came in on.

Given the OP's latest description - it does appear to be a MIDI configuration issue - NOT a Montage issue (MIDI, interpretation, etc).

I do find that using MIDI-OX (PC - would be something else for Mac) helps me "see" the MIDI data echo'd back to Montage to reinforce what I should have already known from the configuration I setup.

Thanks Bad Mister,

That really helps clear up the mud and makes total sense. At one point during my experimenting I wondered if something like that could be a factor, but since one cannot tell Cubase to only accept midi input from a specific channel on a track when in record mode, it was difficult to isolate.

I do have a question about the super knob and its midi data if you have a moment. I put your information to work and performed an experiment.

I created a new midi track, solo'd it, set the channel to "Any" and recorded some playing while turning the super knob. Then I dissolved the track by channels and ended up with three tracks. I noticed that the super knob data, which came in as cc95, ended up being recorded on channel 1.

The cc95 value matches the configured control number in the MIDI setup on the Montage, but does the super knob always use channel 1? Is that configurable?

Asked another way..... If one were to manually create the MIDI data within Cubase, if one wanted to control the super knob, would it always have to arrive at the Montage on midi channel 1?

Thanks!

Asked another way..... If one were to manually create the MIDI data within Cubase, if one wanted to control the super knob, would it always have to arrive at the Montage on midi channel 1?

That is correct, if you set the global parameter for "Super Knob CC" = 95, and "Scene CC" = 92, for example, those parameters will be Output on MIDI CHANNEL 1. By selecting a Control Change number, you are designating that number to address the MONTAGE as a whole. The Super Knob is on the upper Common/Audio level of the architecture so the basic channel of the instrument is used (Ch 1).

Super Knob CC and Scene select CC
These two parameters (along with the Assignable Foot Switch) are controllers that are "global" and these can address all sixteen Parts of the Performance (in Common). And the messages for them are documented on channel 1

If you set "Super Knob CC" and the "Scene CC" to OFF, instead of a CC Number they would generate a System Exclusive message (instead of the CC number) for each of these - System Exclusive messages do not have a channel, but, by convention, are typically listed with the data on Channel 1... as well.

In order for ultimate flexibility you may want to separate the System Exclusive data, so that it can be played and/or muted independent of MIDI Channel 1's music data. You can even separate CC 95 and 92 to a separate track... for convenience.

Depending on what version of Cubase you are using, the more elegantly you can deal with Sysex and CC messages. Cubase Pro allows you to capture your Super Knob and Scene change commands on their own separate track filtered to record only these (Sysex) messages. This makes it easy to keep the Track active at all times... independent of any music on channel 1

If you are using CC95 for the Super Knob, you must keep that Track active at all times IF you wish to communicate with it because you typically work with Local Control Off when recording MIDI. PLEASE recognize the messages generated by the Super Knob and the Scenes address the MONTAGE as a whole... even though documented on channel 1. Whether the Super Knob affects all Parts is not the issue, the fact that it's messages can affect all Parts is the point.

The Super Knob will appear "frozen" if you have Local Control OFF and you do not "complete the circuit" by echoing Channel 1 back to the MONTAGE.

Result...
This means, even if you are directly playing Part 12 ([PART SELECT 12] is lit) turning the Super Knob, or pressing a Scene button will still globally change what they are assigned to control. So you can be giving instructions to the Scenes which could be controlling backing Arps, or changing/morphing instruments, editing effects, panning sounds, sweeping Filters, changing Operator and Element Levels... etc., etc. you can, with Super Knob and SCENE Control, continue to influence all your 'backing' Parts even when you've selected another for direct lead play! (This is new!)

DAW Tips and Tricks
In Cubase you can select multiple tracks to be active simultaneously allowing channel 1 and what ever other channel you require to be selected together.

The concept of manually creating CC data for the Super Knob... please explore this. As you will discover (depending on the programming) is quite a bit different than working with cc74 to open a filter. That one gesture (turning the Super Knob min-to-max) could be affecting scores and scores of parameters simultaneously.

As many have discovered, editing CC data is now "old school", MONTAGE challenges you to "program the synth engine"... you'll see what I mean as you go along. The simple stream of cc95 going from 0 toward 127 can literally be changing tons of parameters settings across sixteen Parts.

For example, turning the Super Knob could be changing volume for twelve of the Parts turning them down from current stored value, while it turns up three rhythm section Parts slightly... as the others fade, while it is adding Reverb and delay to your lead sound... just as a quick example. Additionally, it might also be slowly opening the filter on the strings and brass, while closing filters on the pads and electric piano, and doing nothing to the filters of the guitars... and so on... 16 Parts, each with 8 AssignKnobs, and each with 16 Control Set Source/Destinations.

If you want to edit what it is doing to the flute ... it's not going to get done alone by editing the Super Knob CC message... you're going to need to EDIT THE SYNTH! You're going to need to edit how the flute Part is interacting with the Motion Control Engine as a part of this Performance group.

And to me, that is what is really cool and very, very hip about MONTAGE, it ain't about CC messages so much as it about tweaking the synth engine directly (the reason I got into synthesis in the first place was tweaking the synth engine, not drawing Control Change message with a mouse!)

Hope that helps. I've discovered that I'm unsuccessful in explaining this to some folks totally invested in old methodologies... but that once they reach this point, they begin to discover that this is the case. Sure there are times the Super Knob is doing just one thing, but mostly it's doing multiple things so editing what it is doing is accomplished NOT on the computer with a mouse, but in the synthesizer within the Control Assign matrix!

You link a parameter to an Assign Knob, that Assign Knob is linked to a Common Assign Knob... but you can determine exactly *how much* a parameter changes when you move the Knob. You don't always want the minimum to be 0, and you don't always want the maximum to be 127... you can tailor not only *how much*, but in what *direction*, to a very deep degree.

Scene selection and Super Knob movement are universal (in that they are messages that will or can apply to all Parts together... some Parts specifically. You get to design exactly what it does to each Part.

Thanks Bad Mister!

This response was definitely very helpful and cleared up some issues and solidified others in my brain. Indeed, I do grok the power of the super knob and am very pleased at the fact that when Cubase records super knob action, it's actually recording the super knob itself and not all the things the super knob is potentially controlling.

Thanks for clarifying the options of tying the super knob to channel 1 vs. using sysex messages. I do have a Cubase 9 Pro license. So I plan on experimenting with putting the sysex messages in a separate track.

The only injustice is that your excellent response and clarification is not a standalone post of its own but buried in this thread. Hopefully search engines help folks find it when needed.

Thanks!

Since this and every message is well indexed on popular search engines - you can free-form type any keywords that would help you find this message in the future either by editing your previous messages and adding those keywords somewhere - changing the title (if OP) - or adding a response with the keywords.

Sysex Cubase Super Knob - and any others.

The above keywords currently bring up:

https://yamahasynth.com/forum/super-knob-midi
https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/is-it-possible-to-control-the-super-knob-by-midi
https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/recording-filters-and-superknob-on-cubase
https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/super-knob-and-daw-recordings-issue
https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/edit-superknob-data-in-cubase

as the first 5 hits.

The search engine is going to favor matches with the title (which ends up being put in the link content)

Trey wrote:

Thanks Bad Mister!

This response was definitely very helpful and cleared up some issues and solidified others in my brain. Indeed, I do grok the power of the super knob and am very pleased at the fact that when Cubase records super knob action, it's actually recording the super knob itself and not all the things the super knob is potentially controlling.

Thanks for clarifying the options of tying the super knob to channel 1 vs. using sysex messages. I do have a Cubase 9 Pro license. So I plan on experimenting with putting the sysex messages in a separate track.

The only injustice is that your excellent response and clarification is not a standalone post of its own but buried in this thread. Hopefully search engines help folks find it when needed.

Thanks!

You're quite welcome. When you are ready to step up to Cubase Pro (recommended) you can take advantage of the convenient MONTAGE Project Template described in this article in the "LEARN" area of this site:

MONTAGE and Cubase Pro 9 Workflow

This automatically sets up a Sysex Track, a MIDI Track exclusively for each MIDI Part, a Stereo Audio Track for each Part...MONTAGE CONNECT is running and will automatically capture and restore your MONTAGE Performance for the Project down to the finest detail.

This article is a part of the banks of reference materials concerning the various supported products. While searching posts you may actually find someone with your exact question, posts are more personalized based on the direction of approach of the original poster... and would be my second choice for searching for info. First, use the cloud-links found on the Learn page or search a topic by Product... if you are using Safari, you can click in the URL address bar ("page" icon on the left side of the address) to view the articles formatted in printable PDF format.

Thanks! I did experiment with the sysex info being on a separate track, etc. The one drawback is that editing sysex messages within Cubase is a bit of a pain since one has to modify the raw hex values for each message individually using the MIDI sysex editor. Additionally, for a tool like the super knob, the display of sysex messages does not give you a clean visualization of the super knob's activity. It's a trade-off. On the one hand, one can bundle super knob activity on MIDI channel 1 using a defined cc such as cc95 and get a nice visual representation of the super knob's activity which also allows one to "draw" what they would want the super knob to do within the Cubase midi editor if they're not directly recording super knob activity. On the other hand, one can partition the super knob activity on it's own channel using sysex messages at the expense of losing visualization into its movement and losing easy editing of super knob behavior.