[quotePost id=120695]BTW: The construction of "DX FM EP" is very close to the EP preset (#1 I believe) that's a DX7 preset. There's an online DX7 emulator that initializes with the EP preset and there was very little to change. Same alg (not number - but it's the same shape). Same feedback. Very similar AEG settings (not exact, attack rate is faster -- more thunk in the beginning). Same ratios. The detuning is different. But overall pretty close. And on this emulator OP6=FM-X OP3, OP5=FM-X OP4, OP4=FM-X OP5, OP3=FM-X OP6, OP2=FM-X OP7, OP1=FM-X OP8

"DX FM EP" uses chorus and of course a DX7 doesn't have this. This is what the detuning provides in the "DX" (FM-X) sound.[/quotePost]

The Ep1 preset does not have either of the 2 high harmonics as the Bell DX preset. But I found another FM preset on the Montage that does have the higher harmonic which is the Heart of FM EP preset.

[quotePost id=120702][quotePost id=120697]@ Alex...

For clarity.... do you own or have frequent access to a Montage or MODX?

So far, I assumed you don't, and you only have access to FM Soft Synths.

If you do own a Montage/MODX... I would hope the "search and compare" process would be fairly simple.
[/quotePost]

Yes I do own a Montage. The searching I have done thus far has only brought me to trying to layer different dx7 sounds together but I am just pecking about with no experience programming FM synths. Thats why I am looking for some guidance.[/quotePost]

Thanks for clearing that up.

I thought you had only "heard" this Patch played by someone else, and were trying to recreate it because you didn't have a Montage/MODX.

Glad you found something to better match your concept than even the original. I believe Part 2 of "Heart of FM EP" is the important one and Part 1 offers fairly little. Therefore, I'd focus on just transferring Part 2 of "Heart of FM EP" over. I didn't crack it open to take a look at the algorithm and operator usage.

@Alex

I totally get why you don't want to deep dive into FM-X Programming. I was the same.

Then someone here (probably Bad Mister or Jason or both) recommended Yamaha Official FM Tutorials by Dr Manny Fernandez. Bad Mister has also written a bunch of tutorials, with more Montage/MODX context thrown in.

Manny's "beginner" tutorials ( I think called "FM Xploration") provide downloadable Presets (a Library), videos (indexed on YouTube) and sound bytes to help you along. In the provided presets, all the necessary "FM Parameters" are brought out to the Top Panel Controllers, so you can play with them, and hear what's changing without needing to jump into menus.

They are well worth looking into, because without any brain hurting tech, they cover the basic FM sound design concepts with plenty of examples.

More importantly to you... how to create those "Bell-like Attacks" commonly used to create ePianos (and Rhodes simulations).

This would at least arm you with enough knowledge to take an FM Preset that is similar, and then edit/change the critical components, and shape it to the sound of the Element's in "Bell DX".

It's all put in layman's terms, so it's easy to digest. You won't need to go any deeper than that, unless you want to.

Also anything you learn here will also apply to Dexed, OP7 et al... (remembering to change programming conventions where applicable, 1 - 99 vs 99 - 1 etc, as Jason pointed out).

[quotePost id=120736]@Alex

I totally get why you don't want to deep dive into FM-X Programming. I was the same.

Then someone here (probably Bad Mister or Jason or both) recommended Yamaha Official FM Tutorials by Dr Manny Fernandez. Bad Mister has also written a bunch of tutorials, with more Montage/MODX context thrown in.

Manny's "beginner" tutorials ( I think called "FM Xploration") provide downloadable Presets (a Library), videos (indexed on YouTube) and sound bytes to help you along. In the provided presets, all the necessary "FM Parameters" are brought out to the Top Panel Controllers, so you can play with them, and hear what's changing without needing to jump into menus.

They are well worth looking into, because without any brain hurting tech, they cover the basic FM sound design concepts with plenty of examples.

More importantly to you... how to create those "Bell-like Attacks" commonly used to create ePianos (and Rhodes simulations).

This would at least arm you with enough knowledge to take an FM Preset that is similar, and then edit/change the critical components, and shape it to the sound of the Element's in "Bell DX".

It's all put in layman's terms, so it's easy to digest. You won't need to go any deeper than that, unless you want to.

Also anything you learn here will also apply to Dexed, OP7 et al... (remembering to change programming conventions where applicable, 1 - 99 vs 99 - 1 etc, as Jason pointed out).

[/quotePost]

Thanks that helped as did the Doctor Mix tutorial on creating ep sounds. Not so easy matching the sounds but I think with a bit more digging in I will get closer. This is as close as I've come so far using OPS7:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/16VEXhbPocS8fxfSlhIAPFdkmGP8yS0Em

Actually if there is anyway to get the factory presets/patch bank for the reface DX in syx format I think that would help a lot.

Actually if there is anyway to get the factory presets/patch bank for the reface DX in syx format I think that would help a lot.

Just FYI - but in the above you say 'reface DX' but when you posted you said 'DX7'

I am looking to recreate the "Bell DX" preset from the Yamaha montage inside of Dexed or a DX7

Those are NOT the same instrument and some functionality and formats are different.

It's important for people to know for sure what the actual target instrument is or they could be just wasting any time and effort they expend if you can't use any offering they come up with.

It will be easier for people to help you if they precisely what you need.

[quotePost id=120750]

Actually if there is anyway to get the factory presets/patch bank for the reface DX in syx format I think that would help a lot.

Just FYI - but in the above you say 'reface DX' but when you posted you said 'DX7'

I am looking to recreate the "Bell DX" preset from the Yamaha montage inside of Dexed or a DX7

Those are NOT the same instrument and some functionality and formats are different.

It's important for people to know for sure what the actual target instrument is or they could be just wasting any time and effort they expend if you can't use any offering they come up with.

It will be easier for people to help you if they precisely what you need.

[/quotePost]

Ah ok didn't realize. Cuz I actually just found the reface dx factory presets but they won't open in OPS7 so that would explain that.

Ah ok didn't realize. Cuz I actually just found the reface dx factory presets but they won't open in OPS7 so that would explain that.

Ok - but you forgot to tell everyone EXACTLY what the target instrument and model number is.

[quotePost id=120752]

Ah ok didn't realize. Cuz I actually just found the reface dx factory presets but they won't open in OPS7 so that would explain that.

Ok - but you forgot to tell everyone EXACTLY what the target instrument and model number is.
[/quotePost]

Plogue OPS7.

But actually any way I can have that sound in my computer would be ok. If all else fails I can just sample my montage but I don't think that is the best way.

I updated the file on the link below which is my attempt to match sounds using 3 instances of Plogue OSP7 to match the 3 elements that comprise the Bell DX preset. I think I am getting close.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/16VEXhbPocS8fxfSlhIAPFdkmGP8yS0Em?usp=share_link

[quotePost id=120756]I updated the file on the link below which is my attempt to match sounds using 3 instances of Plogue OSP7 to match the 3 elements that comprise the Bell DX preset. I think I am getting close.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/16VEXhbPocS8fxfSlhIAPFdkmGP8yS0Em?usp=share_link [/quotePost]

Very good! Well DONE!!!!

If you add one more layer for a deeper little (very short) attack "thwack" right at the start (an octave lower) that'll give that start a bit more oomph.

and the layer that's trailing out with a long release, add a bit more chorus to that, to widen it a little, and you'll be super close.

@ Alex...

here's some tips for "emulating" AWM2 sounds on a different Synth. I have attempted doing this on several occasions, for different sounds reasons (mostly trying to copy with the Hydrasynth).

#1 - You need to hear the actual raw Sample without the "Shaping" added by AWM2.

This is what's likely going on in Bell DX.

Element1 -> AWM Shaping 1 -> Mixer
Element2 -> AWM Shaping 2 -> Mixer
Element3 -> AWM Shaping 3 -> Mixer

AWM Shaping is primarily:-
Filter Type
Filter Cutoff & Resonance
Filter Envelope
Amp Envelope
Insert Effects.

You need to make a mental note of these "Shapers" and what, if anything, they are contributing to the sound you hear.

#2 To hear the raw samples (as the microphone "heard" the DX7 when it was sampled):-

a) Write down each Element Waveform name in Bell DX.
b) Open an AWM2 Init Preset.
c) Edit Part1 Element 1 and do the following:-
Set Filter Cutoff = 255, Resonance = 0
Set FEG Depth = 0
d) Copy Element1 to Element 2 and Element3.
e) Set Elements 1 to 3 to the Waveforms recorded in a).

Now you will hear the Bell DX Elements in a "raw" state, without any AWM2 influence. This might provide a better aural guide when trying to recreate in Dexed etc.

#3 My guess is that the 3 Waveforms are actually isolated recordings of each of "3 Carriers" from a single "6 Operator FM" preset.

If that guess/assumption is correct, it provides a massive clue... it tells you that each sample is likely going to be a recording of a "Two Operator Stack".

DX7 Algorithms

Probably Algorithm #5 in the linked diagram above.

For example:-

Element 1 is a recording of just Operators 2 & 1 (With operators 3 and 5 muted)

Element 2 is a recording of just Operators 4 & 3 ( 1 and 5 muted)

Element 3 is a recording of just Operators 6 & 5 (1 and 3 muted).

It is only a guess, but you have to start somewhere. It's a "low hanging fruit first" approach.

If this option becomes exhausted, then it can be eliminated, and you look for the next likely scenario.

It might be that each "Sample" was a complex "Full Algorithm" sound in its own right... in which case you might have to settle for approximations. Reverse engineering complex FM sounds can be very difficult. It might not be a DX7, maybe it was a DX1 or SY77 etc that originally made the sound.

#4 - Follow the clues in the sound. This of course requires at least some basic knowledge and experience of how FM sounds are constructed.

The first "clue" was outlined in #3. 3 component sounds, strongly suggests a "3 Carrier" Algorithm.

Another free clue from me... it's definitely a "Sine Wave" construct... you can hear it. So if your FM Synth of choice offers any other Waveforms (not Sine waves) they can be discounted.

Another Clue is High Harmonic Scaling. You can hear a Louder "Bell Tone" or "Bell Attack" the lower the Note played. This suggests that FM Keyboard Scaling was likely in play.

A prominent Attack indicates Amp Envelope usage for both Carrier and Modulator in each "2 OP Stack".

A Bell or Chime like quality of the Attack suggests a Pitch Envelope (changing Ratio) was used in the Modulator.

The "thicker" sound of the 3, was likely created by the "Stack" that has the feedback loop.

At the moment, this might just all be gobbledegook, but will make sense if you follow Manny's tutorials mentioned in my earlier post.

#5 - Assuming you "nail" each of the three sounds in raw FM, the actual composite sound you hear in "Bell DX" will likely be "enhanced" by AWM2 Engine as per #1. So this is where you need to understand what those AWM2 enhancements are, so they can be recreated elsewhere. A very simple example:- AWM2 might only be adding Chorus and Reverb, and therefore easy to mimic on a different platform such as Dexed.

#6 - As per #5, Recreating the "AWM2" Shaping is extremely easy if you use your Montage's FM-X Engine (not Dexed). The post FM Carrier construction and signal path in "FM-X" is pretty much identical to AWM2. So adding "AWM2 Shaping" is little more than a copy & paste exercise.

For this reason, I highly recommend you use your FM-X Engine to "calculate" the FM programming. Once you have "discovered" the formula in FM-X, you can then copy it verbatim into Dexed, or whatever FM Synth you choose.

Another beauty of using FM-X is that you can have the AWM2 "Original" and the FM-X "Experiment" side by side as 2 neighbouring Parts in a single Performance. Using Mute and Solo you can make immediate and direct audio comparisons with minimal effort.

[quotePost id=120764]@ Alex...

here's some tips for "emulating" AWM2 sounds on a different Synth. I have attempted doing this on several occasions, for different sounds reasons (mostly trying to copy with the Hydrasynth).

[/quotePost]

Have you had a listen to where Alex is up to?

Two posts up from your first screed... there's a link to a drive folder with the original and where Alex is up to. He's already quite some ways along, very near.