Yeah. Now I can't even get either montage devices to show up in audio/midi or anywhere. I've tried rebooting montage. Nothing. And it doesn't show up in Logic.

OK. LOL. I unplugged the USB cable and plugged it back in. Nothing. Then I unplugged it and plugged it into my Novation. The novation came on as its USB powered. THEN I plugged it back into the Montage. Now I can see the devices in audio/midi, Logic and the Editor, though the editor still says it's not connected and Logic is still not recording midi data.

Well hell! I walk away for about 30 minutes and Montage disappears from Logic and the editor. In Logic it asks me if I want to reassign the midi I/O "Montage" because it's no longer there. WTF???

[quotePost id=117717]I can't help you directly but others will when they see your thread.

From previous threads I know that there have been, maybe still are, some issues with:

1. Big sur on the mac - https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/montage-macos-monterey-2021-m1-16-macbook-pro

2. Proper version of Steinberg driver - I believe that the current driver works for that configuration but past versions didn't support it

3. Proper type of USB cable - past reported cable issues were that you needed to use a USB 2 cable and not USB 3. I thought the latest Montage supported the USB 3 cable but again not sure.

[/quotePost]Thank you. I've been thinking about the type of cable. Big Sur. Interesting. It might be time up upgrade my OS? Damn.

Thank you. I have bare minimum on both DP and Logic systems. I mean there are VIs. But nothing else in terms of synth hardware. I have my audio interface, MOTU Midi Express XT and that's it. Interestingly enough I already ordered another 2.0 25 foot USB cable two days ago which should be arriving any moment.

Not too keen on upgrading my OS but I have a test SSD I can install it on. I'd rathe be making music. . . LOL.

Thank you again. I'll peruse and respond to that thread.

My MacOS system is Big Sur. That's not your problem. I'm still not willing to upgrade Big Sur because I don't think Monterey has enough "bake time". For audio applications about the worst thing to do is upgrade the OS when a new one comes out. That said, I have recently created a Monterey VM and verified that the drivers and all for my Montage work fine. I don't have Apple silicon. Others with Apple Silicon seem to be doing better now that drivers have been released.

Still, I think looking at this as a Big Sur issue would be incorrect.

Using a hub is not recommended. That's Yamaha's position. I can say that others have used hubs fine since it's necessary to use a hub for certain configurations. At least when using the TO DEVICE port. And I understand that in cases where a machine has a limited number of USB inputs -- there's a strong pull to gang together external devices which may include Montage's TO HOST port at the PC/computer side.

Still, it's worth peeling this onion back and trying the USB cable straight from Montage to your Mac without a hub. I can say that here when using a Macbook with type-C connections and a converter (Apple branded) from Type-A to Type-C that there were some cables that would work with other equipment that did not work with the Mac. Swapping out with a "better" USB 2.0 cable (TO HOST type B to Type A - aka "USB Printer Cable" ) worked. Many, many times the issue has ended up being a cable.

On the top line of your touchscreen you need to see a USB icon such as the following:

... if you see the following icon (or similar -- neither of these images are from Montage itself):

... then this would be an issue with your mode set as "MIDI" instead of "USB".

Thank you Jason - Today my purpose is to further investigate. It's still not working. I replaced the USB 2.0 cable. I immediately saw the montage devices in audio/midi and the Performance Editor. But it's still listed there as not connected. Then I was confused and thought I had figured my problem out. I didn't know what Montage Connect was. I had installed the USB Driver but not the connect driver. So I installed that. No change that I could see. Darn.

SO . . . I installed Monterey. Painless so far but still not the solution apparently. Once again I see the devices, but I'll have to unplug the USB cable or do some futzing before one of the two icons in audio/midi become active, meaning they're not greyed out.

I thought perhaps it might be the hub. I have a bad back that';s giving me problems so I can't really move and bunch of stuff and crawl behind the "console" right now to see which hub it's connected to, otherwise I'd move it to my Mac. I was fairly certain it was connected directly to Mac but looking at my apple profile it appears to be connected to a hub.

It seems the only way I can consistently get the devices to be active in audio/midi, etc is to unplug the USB cable from the Montage, plug it into the Novation ReMote 25SL Compact, where it starts it, unplug from the 25SL and plug it back into the Montage. THEN it's recognized. Eventually it goes offline. This is the only way I know how to bring it back online. BUT it still doesn't work.

And to be CLEAR, I'm using USB To Host, NOT device.

Running on the assumption that you are using a USB hub, my gut informs me that the hub is suspect. You should be able to leave the hub connected up without having to go back behind the console. Instead, take a different USB "printer cable" and connect it up to MODX's USB TO HOST port and then the other side to your Mac. This may require using a USB-C to USB-A adapter or proper translation cable for the USB ports your Mac uses.

Connect does not provide any USB connectivity and is not a driver. Connect is a helper application for certain operations but is not involved in providing communication between your Mac and the MODX. The Yamaha Steinberg USB Driver handles this and is all you need to be concerned with at the moment.

The 2009 (correction: 2019) Mac Pro 7.1 seems to support two USB type A connections - so the cable should be able to plug straight in without any additional cabling. And yes these two USB-A connectors are on the back of the Mac -- maybe this is what you mean about going behind the console. In which case -- I would say this would be a necessary step in order to rule in or out the hub as a problem.

If you are not using both USB type A connectors you may want to leave a cable plugged in the back and route it somewhere you can get to. The reason for this is to allow plugging in gear with type B connections in the future without having to again get to the back of your Mac. I tend to leave cables plugged into my system like this because it's easier to plug gear into cables than it is to route the cables to the PC/Mac (or, in my case - a docking station) every time. The USB cables I purchase are very long which gives my keyboards lots of flexibility in the room where they can be setup. I believe they are 15ft which is 1.5ft shorter than USB 2.0 maximum length spec. I haven't ever had an issue with these cables. I wish I had the manufacturer because if I ever want to order more -- I'd get the same thing in a heartbeat (and would help to let you know too).

Both of these things will sound insane, but are really real:

MODX/Montage are unusually sensitive at the USB hole, where you plugin your cable. This is a significant contributing factor to better cables working better as they have better connectors.

High Sierra (10.13.6) is hugely more reliable for all manner of USB transfer and connectivity than all later versions, in which they changed the security processes that manage and control the sending and receiving over USB (and other ports, too).

[quotePost id=117727]Running on the assumption that you are using a USB hub, my gut informs me that the hub is suspect. You should be able to leave the hub connected up without having to go back behind the console. Instead, take a different USB "printer cable" and connect it up to MODX's USB TO HOST port and then the other side to your Mac. This may require using a USB-C to USB-A adapter or proper translation cable for the USB ports your Mac uses.

Connect does not provide any USB connectivity and is not a driver. Connect is a helper application for certain operations but is not involved in providing communication between your Mac and the MODX. The Yamaha Steinberg USB Driver handles this and is all you need to be concerned with at the moment.

The 2009 Mac Pro 7.1 seems to support two USB type A connections - so the cable should be able to plug straight in without any additional cabling. And yes these two USB-A connectors are on the back of the Mac -- maybe this is what you mean about going behind the console. In which case -- I would say this would be a necessary step in order to rule in or out the hub as a problem.

If you are not using both USB type A connectors you may want to leave a cable plugged in the back and route it somewhere you can get to. The reason for this is to allow plugging in gear with type B connections in the future without having to again get to the back of your Mac. I tend to leave cables plugged into my system like this because it's easier to plug gear into cables than it is to route the cables to the PC/Mac (or, in my case - a docking station) every time. The USB cables I purchase are very long which gives my keyboards lots of flexibility in the room where they can be setup. I believe they are 15ft which is 1.5ft shorter than USB 2.0 maximum length spec. I haven't ever had an issue with these cables. I wish I had the manufacturer because if I ever want to order more -- I'd get the same thing in a heartbeat (and would help to let you know too).

[/quotePost]Thank you. Wife my wife's help I moved the Montage back into the control room, since I canceled our rehearsal this week. I can more effectively troubleshoot if I don't have to run back and forth. I can plug the Montage directly into the Mac from here.

What I meant with my back is that I have a wall connector, which may be the problem, that goes into the tracking room. This USB 2.0 (or 3.0, I don't remember. I remember 3 years ago I built it to be whatever the most advanced version was at the time) - the wall panel that has the USB plug is in back of the computer desk and sub woofers and a snake of cables. To get to it I have to move the monitor and desk and the rack on the left where the usb hub is. A lot of bending, twisting and lifting. I have to track the cable down. I label all my cables but the label must have come undone because I can't find it. So I have to trace it down. Presently it's impossible for my back. TMI but you asked!

Unrelated question, do you know of a keyboard stand adequate for the Montage 8 that has wheels? And BTW I know you meant it but this is a 2019 Mac Pro 7,1, not 2009. And its an Intel Xeon so I shouldn't have those silicon hoops with installing the usb driver.

And I'm assuming USB is much more efficient over regular midi? I might have to go that route.

Thanks for all your help.

[quotePost id=117728]Both of these things will sound insane, but are really real:

MODX/Montage are unusually sensitive at the USB hole, where you plugin your cable. This is a significant contributing factor to better cables working better as they have better connectors.

High Sierra (10.13.6) is hugely more reliable for all manner of USB transfer and connectivity than all later versions, in which they changed the security processes that manage and control the sending and receiving over USB (and other ports, too).[/quotePost]Hm. Could be. I will absolutely check this out. I plug it in without trying to force it too hard. Thank you.

Alright. Still more testing to do but after moving the Montage in the control room I plugged the USB straight from the computer and it came on.

And I'm assuming USB is much more efficient over regular midi? I might have to go that route.

Regular MIDI will not carry audio like USB can. So using Montage as an audio interface requires USB if you want that. Also, not all features of Connect work with MIDI only so if you want to use Connect then this would also require USB.

You don't have to do either of these but if you plan on doing so, you are locked into USB (combo MIDI and Audio over USB).

Back to the cable ...

If you ran USB cable in your wall for USB 3.0 then the length may exceed USB specs for 2.0. The more we dig into these specifics the less I "like" what's setup there. I run long USB runs but keep them in spec and do not extend with a hub. The cabling is USB 2.0 compliant and is the only interface point to point from Montage to the PC.

A stand ...

I was just at Academy yesterday looking at grills. There's one with metal that seems 3x thicker than your typical high end grill. The door is so heavy there's a counterbalance weight to help assist. And still it takes both hands to lift the door. What I'm getting at is that the thing is incredibly heavy. Heavier than a heap of Montages. The base has two wheels. Huge metal ones. And the structure is "rock solid" steady. It's possible to fabricate such a structure that would meet your requirements. The grill is an over the top reference, but I'm playing devil's advocate a bit.

There are equipment transport carts that have table attachments. Not as stout metal as the grill, but it may work out. There are more expensive "boutique" ones that may have something better. That's a quick off the shelf suggestion.

There's other ways to skin this.