Is there another way to mute an external sound using the scenes?

Scene memory does not store external settings.
And, yes, Mutes, by definition, work on internal sounds.

The only way to "mute" (stop an external device from sounding) is to stop transmitting to it. I know that sounds obvious - but there is not currently an accessible On/Off switch for transmitting externally. I'm not at all sure what your application for this is but if you use a separate Part, one that is not under KBD CTRL, use it to setup the external Zone. This way it plays only when you select that Part directly.

If you are using an internal and external sound together and wish to silence the external you could do it with controller messages.
I'm sorry, I've yet to begin to scratch the surface of the combinations of setups in that Master Keyboard area. What is the nature of the issue.

Thanks Phil,

I just wanted to mute a layer during the verse of a song and bring it back in during choruses. I was able to work around it by using an internal sound instead of the external sound in this case, but I wonder if Keyboard Control toggle is something that can be added to Scenes. That wouldn't be described as an "external setting" would it? To be clear, I'm referring to the little green Kbd Ctrl switch. That's the only way to mute/unmute an external sound.

It seems the external control, at least the way I'm doing it at this point, is cumbersome on Montage in that it's easy to waste Parts. A couple of examples: in order to call up a patch on external board I have to use one of my 8 Parts even if I don't plan on controlling it from Montage key bed; another example where I have to waste one of the precious first 8 Parts is if you want to octave shift the external layer, I can't octave shift an external Zone without it affecting the internal sound of the Part, so again, I have to use up another Part even though note limit is the same. I'm working around these things but it seems like they could be better.

Do you think Scenes could be updated to include Kbd Ctrl since it is an internal setting?
Do you think it would be possible to separate the Octave Shift and Transpose Zone settings from the internal Part?

It's very possible that we're missing something. I don't quite understand why they would have separate Note Limit, Oct, and Transpose in the Zone Settings area if the they couldn't somehow be 'detached' from the internally sounded Part...

Your thoughts and clarifications are always welcome and helpful toward understanding the big picture Phil.

Thanks,
G

It seems the external control, at least the way I'm doing it at this point, is cumbersome on Montage in that it's easy to waste Parts. A couple of examples: in order to call up a patch on external board I have to use one of my 8 Parts even if I don't plan on controlling it from Montage key bed; another example where I have to waste one of the precious first 8 Parts is if you want to octave shift the external layer, I can't octave shift an external Zone without it affecting the internal sound of the Part, so again, I have to use up another Part even though note limit is the same. I'm working around these things but it seems like they could be better.

Hi Gary, Change the word "waste" to "use", it is not a "waste" if you need it - don't be so hard on your selection... Unless the assignment is unnecessary how is it a waste? It just one of my tips on approach: know the specification, look for solutions within that specification.

Problem: If you need to call up a patch on your external board and you don't plan on controlling it from Montage.
Solution: Use a non-KBD CTRL Part, for example, Part 9, to set up the Zone for that external device. It will send your Bank Select and Program Change etc., but will not trigger it unless you directly select Part 9. The BankSelect/PC is sent when you recall this Performance.

Leave the first eight Parts for creating internal sounds and those external that you intend play from Montage keys... Those that you plan to use together.

The way you are currently using this, I agree is a bit cumbersome. I never use a Zone for both internal and external control. I guess I understand and/or have accepted that I have 8 Zones (which means to me, I can play a total of 8 sounds be they all internal or a mix of internal/external or they are all external. But the max is 8, I've accepted that. And it's not wasteful to utilize them, that's what they are for. If I'm using all eight Zones internally, I guess I would have to use an internal/external on the same Zone. But I never needed even eight.

If you are not using 8 Parts internally, use an available Part exclusively for your external device. This gives each its own parameters and controls.

Do you think Scenes could be updated to include Kbd Ctrl since it is an internal setting?

ha, ha, it doesn't matter what I think, it's up to engineering. What I did request for the XF was a Zone On/Off Switch so that there were eight internal Zone Switches and 8 external Zone Switches... Which they did implement, using the XF's Performance Control function. But that system was quite a bit different from the current system.

Do you think it would be possible to separate the Octave Shift and Transpose Zone settings from the internal Part?

They are separate if you give your external item its own Zone. In fact, I highly recommend this because then each Zone has its own Fader. Worst case when you need to "mute" the external device, it will have its own dedicated Fader, at least. The FADER for a Zone you designate for external (Int SW = Off), will send Controller cc007 to the external device.

I promise to have a much closer look at the Master Zone function, and get some clarity on what is possible - even if it requires a firmware update. A ZONE On/Off Switch matrix would be very convenient. But there are still plenty of workable solutions.

But until then my advice: there are 8 Zones total - means expect to control a maximum of eight things (elegantly).
_ Give each sound its own Zone whether internal or external; this way each has its own FADER, Note Limits, Octave, Transpose, etc.
_ Use assignable controllers to manipulate internal Zones separate from external Zones (for example, I don't know your external device, but each Performance on the Montage has customizable Control Assignments, you could set your external device to respond to say, the AsgnSw2... In experimenting with this issue I programmed the external device to go to volume 0 when I latched the AS2 button... Thus acting as a programmed "Mute" button for external device.

Hope some of that is helpful... and I promise to look into some workflows in lieu of accessible Zone On/Off switches.

Interesting workaround to use an Assignable button to mute external zone. I'm going to try this. Thanks Bad Mister.

Hi Phil,

I would really urge Yamaha engineers to make it possible to store all the parameters that are shown in the main performance screen into a scene.
Parameters like keyboard control and keyboard range.
Imagine how powerful and musical that could be!

I'm transitioning from a MOXF to a MONTAGE and I had created a song/mixing for the MOXF which consisted of 4 different voices but in 4 different organizations which were selected by each track.

The objective was:
Track1 (song intro and refrain): Split of a Rhodes on the left with a synth lead on the far right of the keyboard.
Track2 (song chorus): Split of a brass synth with the same synth lead split on the far right as track1.
Track3 (after the chorus): A synth with arp (just an up arp with 2 octaves).
Track4 (interlude): Rhodes

In the original song, the keyboard player had 2 keyboards but I managed to sound very similar but at a fraction of the cost.

Now I have recreated the same song/mixing as a performance on the MONTAGE.
I am using scenes to have the same control as I had with the tracks on the MOXF, but I had to use part mute in order to do that.
I am using 2 parts for the Rhodes because I used Rd Scratched as my starting point, so I need to use it twice (4 parts) as I cannot change the split using scenes.
It is playable like it is now, but there are some disadvantages:
1- The sound cuts of between scene changes
2- The Rhodes is using twice as much part slots as necessary.

On the MOXF I had to use extra parts as well due to the different splits, but at least the sound wouldn't cut between track changes.

On the MONTAGE I could create 3 different performances and use them in separate live sets to use SSS and avoid sound cut off, but that should not be needed for such a simple setup if scenes could store keyboard control and range like I mentioned in the beginning.
Another alternative would be to use XA controls but that would take a lot more time to program.

I'm not sure if your track #1 synth lead and track #2 synth brass overlap notes or not. If they do not, then how to manage these is simple using the same range of the keyboard for both synth parts and mute one or the other depending on the scene. The fact the sound cuts off is not relevant when switching scenes while a part is at rest (gap with no overlap).

Between track 2 and track 3 - I'm not sure what kind of overlap there is of the Rhodes or synth brass from the previous track. If the overlap is a held chord - then you could use octave shift while holding down the sustain to keep the track 2 notes sounding - and have the octave shift be a different range of the keyboard that does not overlap with tracks 1-2. That's one way - but I do not know the specifics of your tune.

If you want the Rhodes to use less parts - pick a single-part Rhodes sound (I'm sure there is one -- the data list doesn't list performances by number of parts which would be useful). It doesn't seem like it matters if you're not out of parts.

I do understand that if Yamaha tears down the scene engine and rebuilds it differently - this would solve problems for you. I have the same opinion about this and other aspects of the keyboard. However - it's unlikely before your next several gigs you need to perform this that any change will be made - so work on creative solutions using the system available.

I'm also not sure what the note ranges are for your various sounds. Sometimes PARTs take up more keyboard space because of the notes on the keyboard where the splits need to be made. Maybe I only go up to an "F" with one split, but the next sound starts with "E" - so I have to "waste" notes F# through D# because the next sound starts with "E".

Sound 1:
... D, D#, E, F [end]

Sound 2:
[start] E, F, F#, G ...

So if sound 2 has to be to the right, on the keyboard, of sound 1 then:

Sound 1: ... D, D#, E, F [end] F#, G, G#, A, A#, B, C, C#, D, D# ( <-- wasted notes) Sound 2: E, F, F#, G ...

So what I will do is "pack" sound 2 right next to sound 1 by transposing the part using note shift. I may just waste one note (like F# in this example) and transpose so the "E" of sound 2 sounds when I press the "G" key. This way, no white keys are wasted and lets me put more splits on the keyboard.

Hi Jason,

I want to thank you for all the tips.
In my case the performance to accomplish the tune was already created, and it was more an example of what could be easily accomplished if scenes could "remember" keyboard ctrl and keyboard range parameters.
It would make it easier to go from one scene to the other without having to press the button at the precise moment.
One could hold a chord using sustain pedal, change scene, and at the right time just play the next chord with the new timbre.

The song in my example is this one here
If anyone is interested, I can upload my performance in a reply.
Notes don't overlap, but your idea of using transpose for splits that do overlap is very cool, and I would never though of that!

It is interesting to note that the request for scenes to do what we are describing here is becoming more and more frequent on the forum.
There was a new post on this same subject today, but another power user just dismissed the OPs idea saying he should make some deeper synth programming to get that done.
As far as I can see, the keyboard ctrl and range settings are already there in the main performance page and you could manually set them by pressing on the screen, so why couldn't the scenes just memorize those parameters as well?
Imagine the Rhodes gallery performance being able to change from one Rd type to the other without any cuts for example.
Wouldn't that be nice?
Sounds like a pretty simple thing to code on a next firmware upgrade.

I would just use MUTE for that tune. I'm listening here with lousy built-in speakers - so I can't tell what the rhythm part is at the beginning (right after the Moog 6-note deal). The Moog parts hardly take up any range - so they sit nice at either end of the keyboard. The rhythm part doesn't seem to move around too much - so it's a relatively compact split. The Rhodes/sax breakdown near the end has the Rhodes by itself without any overlap - can still keep the Moog alone on a split I would say in the upper keys. That brass thing I can hear - and that sits wherever the beginning rhythm part is swapped out by mute. I don't see any loss by doing this tune that way.

If you run out of space - not sure if you're using a 6, 7, or 8 - you could always use a tiny keyboard MIDI'd in for some parts. I don't think this is needed - but it would "emulate" what the player in the video does with two keyboards. No such "emulation" is really needed here, though.