Synth Forum

Notifications
Clear all

Latency when I change the program

9 Posts
4 Users
0 Likes
1,778 Views
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

Hi, when I change the program on my montage there is a little time before I can start to sound the new one. When I touch the new program or use some switch button to do that, it take some time (about one second or part of second) before I can use the keyboard to control the new program.
Is it my montage problem? I didn't try in store so I've no comparison.
Also some change of screen page it happens that take long time ....
Best regards

 
Posted : 07/07/2016 5:28 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

There is quite naturally a pause when a musician puts down one instrument and picks up another. However, we recognize that our customers perform live on-stage and require smooth changes in some instances and rapid changes in other instances. Until you know how to approach this, you can experience what you refer to as "latency" - we know what you mean. There is a difference between "trying out" sounds (which is obviously what you are doing) and having prepared sounds for use on-stage. Preparation will allow you (once you've selected the programs you wish to perform with) to put these programs in either a customized PERFORMANCE or in your own LIVE SET, for quick/immediate access.

There is nothing wrong with your Montage, in all likelihood you have not spent enough time reading the available documentation and are simply experiencing moving around for the first time. Below we will show you the best ways to accomplish changing of programs on the Montage. There are more ways to accomplish this than your first instincts would tell you.

SSS for musically overlapping performing
First, we have what is called SSS or Seamless Sound Switching. Designed specifically, for holding one sound while switching to another. A Performance with multiple Parts (up to eight) can be held, either with your hands or sustain pedal, you can switch to a second multi Part Performance and immediately begin playing that sound while the first found continues to sound. Example, recall the LIVE SET called "Best of Montage 1" - select the box "Seattle Sections" - a seven Part string orchestra/solo string sound. Play a full chord and hold it with the sustain pedal. Now select "CFX + FM EP" and play a piano run over that sustaining string chord. The strings will continue to hold as long as you desire - the piano plays normally - finally release the sustain pedal. This is the purpose of "Seamless Sound Switching". Designed for use *during* playing - specifically for this type of overlapping musical gesture. If you simple stop playing the strings completely you may become aware that recalling another sound does takes some time. That is normal.

If you require to stop playing completely and then change to another program entirely, you may require a more instantaneous change, this is facilitated in an entirely different way... Perhaps jot so obvious to a new owner... When you need to move from one sound to another as rapidly as possible, and that would not be serviced by the SSS method, we recommend you make use of the sixteen slots within each Performance program. Some Performance only use one or two slots out of the 16 available. Hit that "+" icon to ADD new Parts to any Performance. There are sixteen slots in each Performance - they are for you to select the instruments you want to have rapid access to...

Upcoming Articles on Performances and Live Sets
Our next series of articles will concentrate on the basics of Performances and assembling your own LIVE SET. Let's use as our second example a situation where you need to rapidly, seamlessly and completely glitch-free switch between several sounds. Piano on the intro, Electric piano on the verse, Synth Lead on the choruses, and back to Electric piano for the next verse, and a funky Clavinet on the vamp at the end.
You would create a PERFORMANCE (name it the name of the song so you know what it's for)
Part 1 - S700 for Montage as your acoustic piano
Part 2 - DX Legend as your FM electric piano
Part 3 - Wind Synth as your Synth Lead
Part 4 - Clavi Stuff as your funky Clav

When you call up this PERFORMANCE, Press the [PART CONTROL] button
This activates the top two rows of buttons on the right front panel as Part Select 1-16. Touch a Part Select button - you are playing that sound immediately. By placing the sounds you need to access quickly in Parts side-by-side, you can switch between these sounds as rapidly as you can touch the buttons, you can still hold a sound either manually by holding the keys or with a sustain pedal, and switch and play the new sound. You cannot get it to glitch. You can select your favorite sounds to play without any hesitation and you can have as many as sixteen Parts in your setup.

Another approach to this same scenario is to use a Performance like "CFX + FM EP", that combines both an acoustic piano and an electric piano, which you can smoothly morph between the acoustic and electric... The potential yo morph between two and even three sounds exist (a bit more advanced programming but we'll get to those as well in later articles). Recall this Performance, press the [AUDITION] button to "see and hear" how this can be used to great effect. The audition function will playback a MIDI file that will cause the sound to play and the Super Knob, Assign Switches and Knobs to animate in response to the data. You can see and hear how this can be used to seamlessly (musically) transition between sounds.

PART 1-5 = CFX + FM EP (under KBD CTRL)
PART 6 = Wind Synth (single Part)
PART 7 = Clavi Stuff (single Part)

In the series of articles on Performances/Live Sets we'll show you how to build Performances for different purposes. But in either of these quick example above, you can see that within a single Performance you can assemble as many as sixteen sounds, and you can seamlessly and immediately switch between any of these sixteen. You may never need all sixteen for any one song (if you do you're underpaid, but there are different approaches that could be devised for such cases, as well).

Assembling your favorite "go-to" programs so that you have the kind of access you require is a matter of knowing where to assemble your programs. Do you place each in a separate Performance? Do you assemble those you need rapidly in a single Performance with individual access? Just when do I need to create a new Performance? When is it appropriate/inappropriate to use some of the sounds? We hope to give you some practical insight into how to get the most out of creatively using your Montage.

As you've discovered, without the knowledge of the different approaches, just pressing a button does not always get you to the most efficient way to operate. In the meantime, I highly recommend the QUICK GUIDE sections of the Owner's Manual, for the basics of Selecting Performance, Playing the Keyboard, Creating your own LIVE SETs, and Editing the Settings.

Hope that helps.

 
Posted : 07/07/2016 11:09 am
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

Thanks Bad mister, to be honest I read a lot of time the manual and I know this way that you suggest.
I make a case: for a song I need to use a complex program that have more than 8 parts and use these parts in a group of 3 or 4. If I use a scene to manage this I can only use a maximum of 8 part per program (because it is no possible use 16 part contemporaney controlled by the keyboard). So I need to switch between two side by side programs to achive the possibility to manage some group of parts in a same time. But in the moment that I switch from a programs to the other there is a daly time in the use of keyboard to produce the sound of a new performance choose. I like the SSS but it should work in the way that when I change the program immediately I can use the new program (without delay). Some time ago I had a Fantom g and this keyboard (that was in the motif period) make this SSS perfectly without any delay.....so it is very strange that montage behave in this way to me. I like the old sound that remain but please suggest to fix the availability of new sound with zero time delay.

 
Posted : 07/07/2016 11:26 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

? I wish I could follow that. Could you try again. I cannot answer specifics if you cannot describe the specifics. It may not be possible to do what you need the way you are trying to do it, if not, I suggest you find another way to accomplish your goal. If you know Montage well enough, you know there are more than one way to accomplish a goal. If you don't know it well enough, then now's a good time to learn it. Can you explain what it is you are trying to do?

 
Posted : 07/07/2016 11:40 am
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

I try to explain:
Make a case of a complex song with a changing of sound and where I need a total of 16 parts.
With this 16 parts I need to do 4 independent groups (each with 4 parts) and switch between these 4 groups of parts (because at the same time I need that play 4 parts, than I change group to play other 4 parts etc). Any group must be indipendent from the other and must be called in fast way. The best way seems to use the scene that are perfect for this job, but with the scene I can only manage a program with max 8 parts (instead I have 16 parts) so there is no possibility to use the scene. The only way to do 2 different program each one with 8 parts and 2 groups managed by the scene. But in the moment that I change from one propgram to the other one there is a delay in the time that the second program can be played by the keyboard and this is very unpleasure.
I hope to been clear....my english is not so good.
Thanks

 
Posted : 07/07/2016 11:56 am
 Phil
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

If my understanding of Performance architecture is right then you can have up to 8 parts under keyboard control so you can group sounds together but the remaining parts will be single parts only which can be selected under part control. Your situation of needing 4 groups of 4 that you can switch instantly between doesn't fit into that framework.

However that's not to say that it can't be done but you need to think out of the box a little. AWM2 sounds are built from 8 elements - if the parts you are using use 4 or less you could combine 2 sounds into 1 part freeing up a part slot and within the elements set note ranges as you would if it was a separate part.

I've had my montage for a couple of weeks now and what I'm finding is there is quite often a way out of a problem if you approach it from another angle - using SSS, scene buttons, XA control, element combination as appropriate.

Hope this helps

 
Posted : 07/07/2016 12:10 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

Absolutely, you may not be able to use the original Yamaha programmer's configurations to fit into what you are trying to do. The Montage is an incredibly deep instrument, and as Phil says above, approach it from a different angle. Rather than approaching everything from taking what exists and building from there, learn what the programmer's took the time to learn in order to build the currently complex Performances you find in the Presets, before you take those and try to build up from there.

What if the original programmer used the majority of resources available to build a complex sound? .... And here you come and want to combine that complex sound with three other complex sounds. Do you see the flaw, or the potential flaw, in that approach?

Rather, try to study/learn how they utilized the resources, look for ways to do things more efficiently within the existing structure (after all that's what they did) start with that kind of approach.

If you are not aware of what each Element (in an AWM2 PART) is doing, then how do you know it's not preventing you from accomplishing what you need? You might be wasting an oscillator. Perhaps it has Elements allocated for specific articulations you never are going to use, then choosing that Part, as is, could be seen as a poor programming choice. You inherited something that is using resources that you could apply elsewhere.

Simple programming task: take a String sound and layer it on a Piano. This can be done in scores of different ways, from economical to incredibly over-the-top... Which method you choose to do this will require you thinking about what you really need; then customizing, streamlining things so you are making the "smart decisions". Ones that support your ultimate goal, including in your thinking what exactly you have to call up next.

A single Part can do convincing job "Piano & Strings", certainly you can imagine doing this using two Parts and morphing between them, using a separate 8 Element piano Part and 8 Element String section Part. But unless you think it just trivial, when you encounter a Performance like "CFX & Orch", it may pay to study how and what the programmer accomplished in creating this program.

The 4-Part "CFX Concert" is layered with a composite String Orchresta Part that has contra basses, cello sections, viola sections, violin sections, and a sixth Part that is French Horns, Clarinets, and Flutes. Instead of using 4 Parts to do the Strings, the programmer opted to consolidate the strings to a single Part (it's for layering with a piano), and they didn't use 3 separate Parts for the orchestral horns... Instead they built a Part that covered these different instrument layers with French Horns, and a sweet clarinet and flute in the appropriate ranges. Dynamic 3-way velocity switching on the French Horns!

If you approach building this program by simply thinking you require 11 Parts (4 for piano, one for violins, one for violas, one for cellos, one for contra basses, one for French Horns, one for clarinets, one for flutes) - I'd say you don't yet see that there are more efficient ways to build sounds.... If you can't use 64 oscillators to accomplish what you need, I doubt you would be satisfied with 128! It's not really the number of oscillators that's the problem, it's how you use them! If your approach is always to take inefficient ways to accomplish the goal, you will always feel you need more. (When actually by clever programming you could accomplish the goal, satisfying so!)

I learned synthesis on a modular system, back in the day, each oscillator cost dearly (even in 1970s $$$), so wasting an oscillator was like a sin. In your configuration, how many oscillators are going unused? Could you, by programming, find a more efficient and therefore more practical method to get the sound you require? It's a rhetorical question we all must ask ourselves as the programmer.

Just some food for thought.

 
Posted : 07/07/2016 1:23 pm
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

Bad mister I can't undestand all what you mean. I'm a snorkeler user and easely take the program that yamaha have done and mix it to obtain the sound that like to my hear. Honestly I'm not a professional player that can spend time and time to make a new sound. So to me the fast way is to combine what it jet exist, but it happens that the machine sometime spend the power in a way that for me is no good. Maybe it is to complex to me to make a new part with 8 element and I only access to the part yet done and combining it it happens that the montage have no enought power to manage the situation that I show you before. Fore sure I wrong, but 10 years old fantom G do this things in a easely a perfect way. Whay I've the montage and not the fantom g? Because I was hoping that a new machine do better what the old one done in the past. For a lot of things it is true, not for SSS from a program to the other.

 
Posted : 07/07/2016 5:42 pm
david
Posts: 0
Reputable Member
 

We need a flow chart on this one to explain. Programming required.

1) Slot #1 Build (2) layered/split/controlled etc. 4-element parts that are needed. (2 independent instruments in one slot)
2) Slot #2 Same as above (2 independent instruments in one slot)
3) Slot #3 Etc.
4) Slot #4 Etc.
.
.
.
Ending up with 16 parts under keyboard control. I haven't thought about controlling them. Yamaha needs a creative (fast) way to merge small element performances into one performance and still only occupy a single part performance slot.

For example: Flute 1 is only comprised of 4 elements or waveform layers. You want to merge Horn 1 which is also only comprised of 4 elements or waveform layers. When you're finished merging these two you are NOT left with a (2) part performance but only a (1) part performance. This way you have (2) independent instruments available that only occupy a singe slot of the 8 available.

You could theoretically have 8 (1) element parts in each of the 8 slots giving you 64 instruments available at once.

I get greedy though and still use my "MIDI loop trick" and use all 16 (full elements parts) at once.

 
Posted : 07/07/2016 9:23 pm
Share:

© 2024 Yamaha Corporation of America and Yamaha Corporation. All rights reserved.    Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us