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Live sets disintergrating

9 Posts
5 Users
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
Topic starter

I use the live sets quite often. I have 6 additional libraries installed and this feature is great.
but yesterday for the first time after more than two months of creating many live sets, I uninstalled a library, only to reinstall it later. but all the links to the PFs from that lib in the live sets are broken now. reinstalling the library no matter how will not restore it.

How do you cope with this, and what can be done?

Posted : 09/07/2017 7:17 am
Posts: 8037
Illustrious Member

As a general safety step ...

Make X7A backups before making any changes (deleting, erasing, initializing) if you want to put things back together again. This would be the coping mechanism I would employ to be sure I would save off a "restore point" before making changes I thought may render live sets incompatible with the deleted data.


Sometimes I make backups before hitting middle C too hard because I think I'll lose something. But seriously, backing up when you do not need to (redundant backups for no "great" reason) just costs time - and not much of it. The amount of time spent for not backing up when you should of is often far outweighed by eventual time saved restoring back to paranoid/frequent backups.

More directly ...

I wouldn't use set lists in the user area to point to library data unless I thought that library data was going to last forever or I thought that the set list slots in user area pointing to library data was easy enough to reconstruct.

Keeping a setlist that ties in with the library data (a library Live Set for library performances) and a setlist that ties in with user data (a user Live Set that only references user performances) will ensure no cross-contamination that may get undone when deleting libraries.

Do not [STORE] Library performances. If you need to modify a library performance - then import it to the user area and make a new user copy of the performance. You can only add to user setlists - so when adding a performance to the setlist - filter the BANK by "User" or "Preset" and never "All" and never a library slot to ensure the performance you're adding to the setlist is not a library performance.

Obviously, you can - if you you're comfortable with the possible results - add library performances to the user setlist. However, this sets up a burden of managing the effect of deleting libraries which can be side-stepped ("hidden") by avoiding placing library content in the user Live Set lists.

Here's a few scenarios:

Scenario 1: No backups, deleting libraries = SOL

1) Install the "Chick Library"
2) Add a few Live Set pointers to the LIBRARY (without importing)
3) Delete the "Chick Library" - now your slots with the deleted library are invalidated and emptied out
4) Reinstall the "Chick Library" - doesn't fix anything. You have to repeat #2 to re-establish the links -- and they are still subject to getting invalidated

Scenario 2: Minimum backup, deleting libraries = OK

1) Install the "Chick Library"
2) Add a few Live Set pointers to the LIBRARY (without importing)
3) Make an X7U backup of your user area so that you can restore this - your Live Setlist cannot be invalidated on a backup (Montage doesn't touch it after you put it on the USB stick
4) Delete the "Chick Library" - like last scenario - your Live Set has the slots formerly pointing to the library as invalidated and emptied out
5) However ... you can: Reinstall the "Chick Library"
6) Reload the X7U backup - and your live set is back as before.

This is how you would manage "cross-contamination". You could also save an X7A instead of the X7U as above so in one step you can restore the library (or libraries), user performances, and set lists (including the cross-contaminated Live Set that is pointing to library content).

... or if you avoided ever pointing to Library performances and also avoided [STORE]'ing performances that may point to library content (like waveforms in the performance) - then this would manage the issue as well.

None of the following exists that I'm aware of - but may be in the bucket of improvement suggestions:

System could, when deleting a library, scan through the User Live Set list and see if there are any slots with an MSB/LSB pair that matches the library being deleted. If so, prompt user that deleting the library will invalidate the Live Set list. Furthermore, it would be possible to generate a list of performances in the Library deleted that match User Live Set slots and ask (If user says OK, delete) if the system should auto-import all performances in the library that are linked in the Live Set list to the user area. This would also be an alternative method of importing. ... select a Library performance. Press [SHIFT]+[LIVE SET] to register the library performance. Then delete the library - to be prompted with the option to auto-import. It doesn't save a whole lot of "key strokes" vs. today - but does guide you away from possible headaches.

Posted : 09/07/2017 8:12 am
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
Topic starter

I understand.

On the Kronos for example, the live sets point to a location. with the Montage on the other hand, it points at a specific performance which once deleted will not point at anything.

It could be easily solved if Yamaha would've numbered the library slots and PFs. then, it would be possible to import a library to slot 2 or slot 4 and eventually a live set location will point to Library 4, PF 103 - for example.

Such "ties" were also in the Motif - PF would point to a voice LOCATION, master mode would point to a PF or voice LOCATION, etc... right now, it seems a bit "incomplete" on the Montage.

why wouldn't I want to create a live set with all my favorite pianos from all my libraries together with the presets? or my favorite leads? you get me.

Posted : 09/07/2017 8:25 am
Posts: 8037
Illustrious Member

You can absolutely do what you want - use a User Set List to point to anything. It's when you delete libraries that things go south - so I've suggested multiple ways to manage this. Basically it involves saving when things are good or avoiding mixing library and user. Avoiding mixing library and user in the pianos and leads example would mean to collect together all your leads and put them in one library - with a library set list that points to all the leads on there (and even lead presets - since presets never get deleted). No cross contamination. Deleting the lead library will delete the lead set list and not modify the piano setlist. Pianos - same - own library. These are suggestions to manage the deleting part.

You can also make frequent backups which would dig you out of the user set list invalidation.

I've often said file system in Yamaha keyboards is an area for improvement. There's always a way to get to a destination -- but sometimes it's a windy road. And often along the way things happen like what you experienced: loss of data without realizing it until after the fact. Sometimes there are helpful messages - sometimes not. I'm trying to give some tools to manage a file system still draped in a dated/legacy paradigm. I'm not really defending it - as it could be better. But losing data is no fun - and there are some ways to avoid data loss.

Right now Live Set slots are saved by MSB/LSB+PC. Each library has their own MSB/LSB range and User area has its own MSB/LSB range. Live Set slots do point to performances by numbers. Not following how a different set of numbers would help when the rug is swept out from under the content which is being referenced in a Live Set other than first copying the about-to-be-deleted content to the user area.

I think what you're outlining is what could happen if you could "move" a library. There is no reason to "move" a library from one slot to another. The issue is really with a "delete" - not "move".

Posted : 09/07/2017 8:53 am
Posts: 0
New Member

Actually, I'm having, I think, a related issue - I purchased a Motif library recently because I liked some of the sounds it advertised. When I imported it to the Montage as a Library, I'm finding I have multiple repeats of sounds when I do a category search. Like if I'm looking for a Syn Lead, it might have 4 of the same sound listed. I know I could probably get rid of the redundancy by deleting the entire library, but I've already created about 70 performances for my band's live set and I'm concerned that some of the sounds in those performances come from this library I purchased.

My question really is - why? Why do I keep getting multiple listings for the same sound? Is there anything I can do about it?

Posted : 08/08/2017 11:04 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12303

My question really is - why? Why do I keep getting multiple listings for the same sound? Is there anything I can do about it?

Duplicates... Until you understand what causes them, you probably will continue to see them. You loaded the Motif XF file which included 512 VOICES (four User Banks of 128 Voices plus 32 User Drum Kits), these become 512 Single PART Performances plus 32 Single Part Drum Kits in the Montage.

Since there probably were not more than 128 new Voices in that Motif XF Library that were *unique* Voices (keepers), the other 384 Voices and 32 Kits were Motif XF *repeats* of the XF Factory Set... all 384 of those Voices are already included in the Montage Factory Set. So are the 32 XF Drum Kits... That is the "Why" They are duplicates because the entire Factory Set of Motif XF Voices are already in the Montage... and by loading an XF All data file you created the duplicates. You can avoid this...

The more important "What should I have done?" Question is answered: You should have loaded the Motif XF file as a Library to the Montage... and then BEFORE you began programming new items, you should have imported *just* the Voices you wanted to extract from that XF Library... and IMPORTED them to the internal Montage USER BANK... You then could have DELETED the installed XF Library.... Next you should have created a new Library File from the data you imported to your User Bank... and then finally, you should have loaded that new file to a Library location.

It sounds complex but it is not that difficult. Here is the summary:

_ Load as Motif XF Library.... all 512 programs plus 32 Drum Kits installed to Montage as a "temporary" Library. Play through them... find the "keepers"

_ Using "Library Import" function move the "keepers" to your USER Bank
They will ultimately become the 'permanent' Library file. You can import as many as you'd like up to the User Bank limit of 640, adding to data you may already have imported to your User Bank, or you can import them to a blank User Bank.

_Discard all the potential duplicates by Deleting the XF Library you originally loaded. [UTILITY] > "Contents" > "Data Utility" > select LIBRARY folder > highlight the .X3A Library you installed, touch "Delete"

Create a new LIBRARY File by Saving the current User Bank to a new .X7L file
Load your newly created and streamlined Bank to the Library.

The LIBRARY IMPORT function is found in [UTILITY] > "Contents" > "Library Import"

Its function is to allow you to mark and redirect any Performance in an installed Library, to your "User Bank". You can assemble as many as 640 Performances in your User Bank. It is the Performances in the User Bank that can be SAVED to a new LIBRARY FILE .X7L

It is this file that you permanently install. It will contain no duplicates.

The newbie causes of seeing duplicates are the following:
1) if you create a new Performance by starting with a Factory Performance, remember to give it a unique name. If you start editing with "CFX CONCERT" and you don't rename your edited version this will = a duplicate name on the category search list. Remember to name/rename your unique Performances. (Some how starting with "Init AWM2" or "Init FM-X" or "Init Drum" or "Multi/GM" we don't need to remind anyone to rename... but these should be renamed if you start editing with an Init program.)

2) not recognizing what is in your User Bank when you create a Library File. Do not permanently install a Library without first using the LIBRARY IMPORT function to sift through the data, mark and import the "keepers" -letting you discard the duplicates (as explained above). After this, create your own custom Library File. Remember, any XF, XS, MOXF, etc File can be installed directly as a Library (temporary) you must then select and IMPORT the items you want... make them into a Library File... then finally load your "permanent" Library.

Hope that helps.

Posted : 09/08/2017 1:19 am
Posts: 0
Estimable Member

Hello Eyal - I got kinda lost reading through the answers to your query, but in short I think your problem appears to be creating new Pfs from Library Pfs - this will only work so long as the Library is installed, due to the architecture of Montage. Uninstall the Library and your new Pf is gone. As intimated, to retain new Pfs without the originating Libraries installed, import the sounds you're employing from the Library to the User Bank and create your new Pf from there. I rarely use the 'Live Sets' (which seem to me to be mainly useful for changing Pfs on the fly during live performances) - instead I use the User Bank, and back it up as a dated Library every now and then (usually once a week). Once I have 640 new Pfs I 'Save' them as a new Library (on the back-up USB), and start on the next 640 ... of course, once you have those new Pfs in the user Bank, then you can transfer them to Live Sets in the order you want them, and they will stay there regardless of what Libraries are installed.

Posted : 09/08/2017 6:20 am
Posts: 0
New Member

Thanks, Phil. That makes sense. I was guessing it was something close to that. My next plan is actually to delete the entire library and then go back into the performances I created and make sure I'm not missing any "keepers" as you put it. Then I can follow your instructions and only load the ones I want into the "permanent" file.

Truth is until I sifted through my band's set list to figure out which performances I needed to create, I couldn't really be sure which of those voices I wanted to keep and which I didn't need. I really couldn't delete the XF library until I was sure what my requirements were. Actually, I think the way I initially imported the library split all of the performances into their component parts. When I viewed the library, there was only one of each voice. When I used the Category Search, that's when I got two or more of the same voice listing.

Posted : 12/08/2017 12:49 am
Posts: 0
New Member

By the way, after delving even further into it, the solution, it turns out, is you were right. Copies of the same sound in different libraries. Given, it's also a pain to sort through over 1,500 sounds (three libraries) to try to figure out which ones are repeats. It would be nice if there were some sort of system like copying mp3s to a computer - "This program already exists. Overwrite or save both?" I know the libraries don't cross-reference. It would just be useful if they did.

That said, I really do appreciate the help. I would have been lost navigating through User banks, Libraries, and Live Sets if not for the above.

Posted : 07/09/2017 8:05 pm

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