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M8X - no apparent ability to MUTE or SOLO elements 9-128

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I can find no way to mute or solo extended elements 9-128.

The ability to MUTE and SOLO elements 1-8 can ONLY be done using the front panel SHIFT and the MUTE or SOLO button and the front panel 'el/op/osc' buttons.

Previous Montage and Modx models have screens that show the 8 elements with both SOLO and MUTE buttons available so that individual elements can be tested/sounded individually.

So I'm not sure just how you can add a new element to a part and test it individually. The only work-around I have found is:

1. add a new one element part
2. test the element there
3. use copy/exchange to move the tested element to the part being built
4. delete the part added for testing

Seems rather cumbersome.

 
Posted : 29/10/2023 5:17 pm
Bad Mister
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I can find no way to mute or solo extended elements 9-128.

The workflow is different.
The workflow is not how you expect (is all).
But that does not mean it is not possible…

You can Solo or Mute any Element while viewing its “Part - Element” screen…which gives you access to its Element On/Off, XA CONTROL status, it GROUP assignment, its Routing through the Insert Effect Blocks, its tuning, its pitch response to Velocity, etc., and it’s Note and Velocity Range.

Dealing with your AWM2 Elements in sets of 8 allows you more control in my opinion.

 
Posted : 29/10/2023 5:36 pm
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You can Solo or Mute any Element while viewing its Part - Element screen.

Please provide more detail.

Regarding SOLO - I haven't seen any solo button/indicator on the elements screen nor any mention the operations doc.

I also don't see any reference to 'mute' on any of the edit element screens. There is an ON/OFF slider on the Osc / Tune screen and that removes the element from the part altogether.

Naturally removing the element will effectively 'mute' it but the previous instruments had both ON/OFF and MUTE buttons.

The only 'mute' reference for elements in the operations doc is this trouble-shooting item on page 566
https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/2/2172442/MONTAGE-M_OM_En_v111_A0_web.pdf

Is the mute switch for each element/operator in the Part turned on?
[PERFORMANCE] → Part Common Select → Navigation bar element, operator, oscillator status display

I can't figure out what that refers to

1. load CFX Concert
2. use PERFORMANCE button
3. edit Part 1 and select part1 common
4. press the NAVIGATION button

I don't see any 'mute switch for each element/operator'.

Where is the mute switch located for element 12 of the CFX Concert performance?

 
Posted : 29/10/2023 6:04 pm
Bad Mister
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MUTE and SOLO are located just below the Super Knob
To activate the SOLO function touch the [SHIFT] button (and then reading under the button also in red font) press the SOLO button (PART SELECT is written above) - it will flash purple indicating you are now in SOLO.

If you have deconstructed the “CFX Concert” into three Parts as outlined in your other thread… You have 8 Elements in Part 1, 8 Elements in Part 2 and 2 Elements in Part 3.
Use the purple PART buttons to move between the Parts. Assuming you are looking at the Part Edit screen > “Osc/Tune”… pressing one of the PART buttons will let you move between your sets of 8 Elements.

Below your 8 Knobs and 8 Sliders you have 8 PART buttons and a COMMON button to their left. (These used to be on the right front panel of the old MONTAGE… I mention that because so many people think they’re gone, they’re not, they simply moved them).

The buttons default to PART “Common”, and PART SELECT “1-8”.
However, (and this is key to finding your way around) underneath those buttons, under the word “PART”, is written “EL/OP/OSC”
EL = Element 8 if AWM2 occupies the Part
OP = Operator 8 if FM-X occupies the Part
OSC = Oscillator 3+Noise if AN-X occupies the Part

Select Part 1
While the SOLO button is flashing purple, press and hold [SHIFT] the Common and buttons 1-8 will turn green — indicating they now represent Elements

Muting works the same way, [SHIFT] + [MUTE] causes it to flash purple
Initially you can Mute Parts, but hold [SHIFT] and those same, now green, buttons will MUTE Elements. This is indicated on the top line of the screen.

Working in sets of 8 is how you can best deconstruct and analyze any Extended Element Part. It also is the best way (I’ve found so far) to program with the Extended Element feature.

Next issue: If for whatever reason you want to hear just the following:
Element 8, 16, and 18 (although for the life of me I can’t imagine why)… but for the sake of argument, say, that’s what you want to do.
Mutes and Solo will not work outside of the current Part (not for Elements).
But the solution is simple enough - switch the Elements you don’t want to OFF.

The first time you do this, you are all thumbs, but once you get used to the button navigation — like so many things… You can really fly — color coding helps (until you get the color schemes down do make conclusions that “you can’t) you can do the whole thing without touching the screen. The first time you do it you can’t remember how to “Part Select”, but if you get lost .. the top line of the “Osc/Tune” screen shows you where you are: what Part, what Element, etc.

Even the Element On/Off switch can be done with a Knob under the main display.

The deconstructed “CFX Concert” reveals:
Element 8 is in Part 1… velocity 111-125, C-2 thru G5
Element 16 is the 8th Element in Part 2… velocity 111-125, G#5 thru G8
Element 18 is the 2nd Element in Part 3… velocity 1-127, C-2 thru G5 (KeyOff noise).

Try playing that combination

Where is the mute switch located for element 12 of the CFX Concert performance?

Can you find it now?

Hint: it’s the 4th Element in Part 2.

 
Posted : 29/10/2023 6:59 pm
Posts: 773
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MUTE and SOLO are located just below the Super Knob

Am I correct that those ONLY work for elements 1-8?

If so I don't see how this statement is accurate

You can Solo or Mute any Element while viewing its Part - Element screen.

And what does the doc quote I posted mean?

Is the mute switch for each element/operator in the Part turned on?
[PERFORMANCE] → Part Common Select → Navigation bar element, operator, oscillator status display

I don't see any 'mute switch for each element/operator'.

I'm trying to make my questions as straightforward as possible. Many of them are related to comparing things between my old Modx and the new M8X.

The Modx had 'mute' and 'solo' buttons on the display that allowed you to mute and solo any of the (then) available 8 elements/operators.

Does the M8X have similar 'on screen' mute and solo buttons? If so how do I navigate to the screen they are on? Are they only for elements 1-8?

If you have deconstructed the “CFX Concert” into three Parts as outlined in your other thread

It's hard for me to imagine users new to Yamaha instruments would want to do that or even know they needed to do that in order to see what an M8X preset is doing.

I interpreted that suggestion, even though you didn't say it explicitly, to mean that the answer to my questions is NO - you can NOT see activity for elements 9-128 nor do they have mute/solo buttons aside from the ON/OFF switch for each element 1-128.

Is the above correct?

However, (and this is key to finding your way around) underneath those buttons, under the word “PART” is written “EL/OP/OSC”
EL = Element 8 if AWM2 occupies the Part

And doesn't that mean that those front panel options are ONLY for elements 1-8?

but hold [SHIFT] and those same, now green, buttons will MUTE Elements.

Again - isn't that ONLY for elements 1-8?

Seems to suggest, and I was hoping for, a simple YES or NO to most of these questions about elements 9-128.

Trying to get a clear picture of the difference in available functionality between elements

 
Posted : 29/10/2023 7:19 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 0
 

The first thing you need to accept is: it does not work like you are thinking.
Are you able to use Soundmondo?
I will post something that may help you understand. I started by saying it does not work like you are thinking… I’ll say it again. If you are bent on it working like you are thinking, I’ll stop now (as I can’t help you)

— I started by thinking about how did they get all 18 Elements in one slot, (and still not drop all the legacy compatibility). Once you see that — you see that sets of 8 Elements were linked by KBD CTRL. They kept the 8 Element structure, but simply expanded the number of Elements you can put in it.

Extend the Element Count
Then simply Copy the Elements into the new locations
Easy peasy.

You are looking for Elements numbered 1-128.
Again, it does not work like you are thinking.
(This ain’t that kind of movie…)

 
Posted : 29/10/2023 7:32 pm
david
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What I think is confusing is the word "Part" taking on different meanings. "Part" for elements is not the same as "Part" for performances.

A multi-part performance has "Parts" up to 16 total.

The elements has "Parts" up to 128. For the elements it shouldn't be called "Parts" but perhaps "Groups" meaning 16 groups of 8 elements per group.

The "Parts" on the screens I think of as complete instruments in a performance and not parts of elements of a single voice.

Leave it to Yamaha to use the same word for completely different purposes. Charge that to "Groups" in your head. Programmers aren't musicians and lack common sense in general. You can't use a term "Parts" with multiple meanings and not create total confusion.

Now we have 16 groups each with 8 element = 128 total elements.

Not sure why the second screen can't simply display 1-8, 9-16, 17-24 etc. up to 128 (using the page buttons) instead of the "Parts" in the corner counting up 1 thru16.

I can use the touch screen to shift "Groups" but have yet to figure out how to shift "Groups" using only the key presses. I can hold the "Parts Select" but that only take me up to 8 "Groups" not any higher.

Found it. You have to hold "Shift" and press the 1-8 blue solid light button until it flashes blue which then switches to "Groups" 8 thru16.

 
Posted : 29/10/2023 8:06 pm
Posts: 773
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The first thing you need to accept is: it does not work like you are thinking.

You could make that a LOT easier by just saying YES or NO to the questions I ask in my last reply.

It most definitely doesn't work like I was thinking since I was thinking I would have at least the same functionality as I had before as it relates to working with elements and groups of elements.

My expectation was that if adding more elements was useful and desireable then being able to work with and manage those 'more' elements would be an important consideration. It doesn't appear to work like I am thinking.

My expectatin was that, when adding more elements, it would be both useful and necessary to be able to 'group' elements into different sets of functionality and be able to work with each group independently - almost as if they were sub-parts or separate instruments.

My expectation was that if proper XA control is reliant on element groups then being able to work with and manage element groups that include those 'more' elements would also be an important consideration. My thinking here seems to be misplaced also.

My experience tells me that to effectively manage groups of elements you need to be able to easily determine what elements belong to each of the groups that exist. Doesn't appear that is possible so expectations don't meet reality here either.

If for whatever reason you want to hear just the following:
Element 8, 16, and 18 (although for the life of me I can’t imagine why)

That wasn't me but one main reason is that XA control and element group thing I just mentioned.

If you have XA groups that contain specific sets of elements then it is obvious to me that you would want to be able to work with each group of elements in isolation (i.e. SOLO) so you could 'use your ears' and make sure they were producing the result you were aiming for.

If you are bent on it working like you are thinking, I’ll stop now (as I can’t help you)

You are missing the point entirely. I am trying to understand how it DOES work compared to how the Modx works. I'm trying to point out things that I can't figure out how to do and trying to find out if 1) it can't be done or 2) I'm not going about it the right way.

My questions are asking about WHAT functionality exists, in particular to the extended elements. What functionality exists for the standard 1-8 elements that does NOT exist for the extended elements?

My expectation was, and is, that you could provide simple YES or NO answers to questions like I posed:

The Modx had 'mute' and 'solo' buttons on the display that allowed you to mute and solo any of the (then) available 8 elements/operators.

Does the M8X have similar 'on screen' mute and solo buttons? If so how do I navigate to the screen they are on? Are they only for elements 1-8?

My current focus is not on preparing for an upcoming gig. It is STRICTLY on understanding what the M8X can, and cannot, do. In particular these two areas:

1) what functionality does the M8X have that wasn't in the previous version
2) what functionality is missing from the M8X that WAS in the previous version

 
Posted : 29/10/2023 8:06 pm
Bad Mister
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Simple Yes or NO...
Can you access Soundmondo?

https://soundmondo.yamahasynth.com/voices/110743

 
Posted : 29/10/2023 8:08 pm
david
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See above

 
Posted : 29/10/2023 8:09 pm
Posts: 773
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Not sure why the second screen can't simply display 1-8, 9-16, 17-24 etc. up to 128 (using the page buttons) instead of the "Parts" in the corner counting up 1 thru16.

See page 192 in the Operations doc
https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/2/2172442/MONTAGE-M_OM_En_v111_A0_web.pdf

Those sets of 8 you mention are done on the Mod / Control -> Control Assign screen when a destination is for an element. Then you will see 'Element Sw' which is a dropdown with those choices for different sets of 8 elements.

Then the 'Display Element' reference is to the display of the ON/OFF switches for each of the 8 elements in the range you chose with the Element Sw.

So for control assignment purposes you can view 8 ON/OFF element switches at a time to control lwhich elements will be associated to the controller you are assigning.

That same element 'range selection' would be useful in other places. And for ON/OFF, mute, solo you could probably get many more than 8 on a screen at a time.

 
Posted : 29/10/2023 8:23 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 0
 

Again, I have no opinion about what could, should or is a good idea… (we all have those) you know where to post those. Did you download the Soundmondo example? I’m just trying to get you to understand how it works currently.

@David if you are confused about the terminology - start another thread someone will help you.

 
Posted : 29/10/2023 8:29 pm
Darryl
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[quotePost id=124113]MUTE and SOLO are located just below the Super Knob
To activate the SOLO function touch the [SHIFT] button (and then reading under the button also in red font) press the SOLO button (PART SELECT is written above) - it will flash purple indicating you are now in SOLO.

If you have deconstructed the “CFX Concert” into three Parts as outlined in your other thread… You have 8 Elements in Part 1, 8 Elements in Part 2 and 2 Elements in Part 3.

The buttons default to PART “Common”, and PART SELECT “1-8”.
However, (and this is key to finding your way around) underneath those buttons, under the word “PART”, is written “EL/OP/OSC”
EL = Element 8 if AWM2 occupies the Part
OP = Operator 8 if FM-X occupies the Part

Muting works the same way, [SHIFT] + [MUTE] causes it to flash purple
Initially you can Mute Parts, but hold [SHIFT] and those same, now green, buttons will MUTE Elements. This is indicated on the top line of the screen.

Working in sets of 8 is how you can best deconstruct and analyze any Extended Element Part. It also is the best way (I’ve found so far) to program with the Extended Element feature.[/quotePost]

Ok, this makes perfect sense now!! Thanks BM!
Everything was moved to where I thought it might have been (although the top left 8 buttons above the new screen looked like they could have been utilized for this, so I wasn't sure until now 😉 )

I think a short video would now come in handy 'especially' for existing Montage owners (but also for those who never had a Montage) showing the new basic functionality of how to Select PARTs, how to Mute PARTs, how to Select Operators/Elements, how to Mute multiple Operators/Elements, how to Solo, etc. on the new Montage M. And also how to deconstruct a PART like the CFX Concert, and how to construct a >9+ Element PART from multiple PARTs, including Shift + Edit to Copy or Exchange PARTs, Elements, Operators, etc.

I get the concept you mention about working in sets of 8 for Elements (9-128) in a PART, such that we just Copy or Exchange the next 8 Elements to another PART. Everything is in groups/sets of 8. It seems a little tedious but workable!

I still think there is room for improvement such as adding a new AWM2 Window/Tab that has an 8 x 16 Matrix of all 128 Elements that can be Selected, Muted, Solo'd, etc., while being able to view the green radio light when an Element is used, as well as the yellow 'm' when an Element is Muted...maybe even a small symbol in the top left of each Element block showing what the XA Control is set to, which would make it easy to watch any groups of Elements set to 'Cycle' or 'Random' be viewable when playing and make sense while testing it. This would allow people to utilize/program all 128 Elements without having to deconstruct to multiple PARTs each time...

But overall, it's not as bad as I thought and would be a great new workflow to learn if I could afford to trade up to a Montage M! Wish I had that problem...

 
Posted : 29/10/2023 8:29 pm
Bad Mister
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More than 50 videos are already posted…

@Darryl

But overall, it's not as bad as I thought and would be a great new workflow to learn if I could afford to trade up to a Montage M! Wish I had that problem...

It actually is a great workflow — plus it maintains upward compatibility with the first generation Motion Control synths (which is important).

I don’t think anyone yet can fully appreciate how the 128 Elements in a Part will be used in future Libraries. The potential is amazing.
Notice with the 18 Elements of the “CFX Concert” never are two Elements ever sounding, simultaneously. The way to utilize them is expanding the playable palette for the instrument sound you’re creating.

Notice how Elements (each a complete synth in itself) are used by the programmers even in the first generation. I believe you will likely run out of things to do with 128 Elements.

What it opens the door for is more articulations!
I guarantee most folks will run out of ideas before they exhaust the Element Count.

User programmable Articulations on steroids.

I had a student who would always complain about having to move to a new Performance… until they finally “got it” - that you can merge the three Performances that they were switching between into one Performance… and they could move between with the Super Knob, or with Performance SCENEs.

 
Posted : 29/10/2023 8:53 pm
david
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The terminology is the result of all the confusion. I followed these examples and "Parts" makes absolutely no common, logical or intellectual sense. I'm an engineer, I'm extremely logical.

But "Parts" related to groups of 8 elements should be called something else such as "SET" or "GROUP" or "SECTION" of elements because the term "Part" is reserved for a voice made up of up to 128 elements.

I now know exactly how to access all 128 elements and turn them on and off etc. using either the screen or the buttons now that I know "Parts" is being incorrectly used. You can't use the same word for multiple definitions.

Elements are not 8-piece groupings of 1 thru 16 "Parts" as Montage is showing it however that's what's being shown. A "Part" is a singular entity comprised of a designated amount of elements. You can have up to 16 single Parts within a performance.

Every time I was reading the word "PART" my mind told me that means a voice in a up to a 16 "PART" performance. Thus the CFX piano is only a single "PART" so it can't contain 16 "PARTS" of 8 elements. A single "PART" CFX can however contain 16 "SETS" of 8 elements.

 
Posted : 29/10/2023 8:54 pm
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