Jason wrote:

The signal flow is out from your TC device then into the direct box unbalanced input then out of the direct box probably XLR output then to a XLR to TRS cable which is plug into the a / D input of the Montage.

As per above, am I correct in saying the balanced outs of the TC go into the unbalanced ins of the DI and then the outs (Probably XLR to TRS) go into the Montage A/D. This is where I'm confused.. The manual shows the Montage A/D as TR ins not TRS? Thank you for your patience..

@Louis,

Erase everything I said. I was a bit out of pocket and read your original comments wrong about what was balanced and what was unbalanced. This led me down the completely wrong path - and I still "dug in" and "doubled down" on the wrong assumptions.

I haven't used A/D inputs for a while - so I've lost track (my S90SX has a balanced mic input, the Montage - as you mentioned, but I somehow ignored, is unbalanced). Here's some better information for you:

Some will say you can just connect a TRS-to-TRS cable between the TC and Montage and call it quits. There are a few different ways to implement a balanced output - and reading forums - others have not had much success with a VoiceLive and transformer-less interconnect.

I take it you have the "VoiceLive" and not the VoiceLive 2 or 3 or "play" - some of which have XLR balanced outputs.

Assuming you have the "VoiceLive" (no XLR outputs except a passthrough connector) and the only processed outputs are balanced TRS - you may want to insert a transformer to match impedance. Something like the Whirlwind Little Imp. If you want to add just a single cable, then a male XLR (connecting to the transformer) to 1/4" TRS (connecting to the TC) cable will do the trick. This type of cable can also be used to connect the balanced outputs of Montage to XLR studio monitors or mixers.

That said, my preference is to use adapters at both ends. The other option (which is what I would do) would be to get a TRS-to-XLR(male) adapter (I currently have a few Hosa manufactured adapters of this type) and a standard XLR "mic" cable (XLR female to XLR male). I would go this route in order to have the cable, which is prone to failure, be more standard than the "niche" XLR-to-TRS cable. I know if I use a standard "mic" XLR cable - the soundman/group/myself are going to have a bucket full of those. The adapters are not as prone to failure as cables assuming quality connector parts are used. Cables are being stepped on, spilled on (liquid), ran over with heavy amps, pinched, tugged, etc.

To be honest, I have both solutions here - I have the "special cable" for the studio - to eliminate the extra connector - and I carry to gigs the adapters and use a standard mic cable (XLR to XLR). NOTE: the transformer (like Whirlwind Little Imp) should be plugged in directly to the Montage. If you place a cable between it and Montage (like female 1/4" to male 1/4" extender) - then you are creating a noise antenna by doing so and will pick up all kinds of noise/hum/etc. So don't do that. The benefit of using either of these methods using the transformer is that you keep balanced all the way to the transformer. So you can use longer cables which will be balanced and have the noise immunity properties over the length of the cable. This assumes the balanced output is implemented "properly". I'm not digging into TC's implementation.

The alternative is to not use the matching transformer and see how that goes. TRS-to-TRS cable (balanced). Montage will not connect the ring - so that will be "lifted". You'll be running using only sleeve and tip. If you do this, use the shortest TRS-to-TRS cable you can find that places the TC somewhere that it will work for you. I'm expecting less than satisfactory results judging by the limited research I've done with others reporting results of a similar setup. None of these reports, however, used the Montage as the destination.

Jason,

Thank you very much for your time and input, much appreciated.

I'm quite bothered by the fact that the Montage with all it's pro features (Audio Interface ins and outs) doesn't provide a balanced in. I have VoiceLive 2 which has L/R XLRs out and L/R TRS outs. Also the S/PDIF in/out. Your explanation was assuming not so. Does this change anything from your post?Optimally, I would prefer not adding to much between the mic signal and the A/D inputs.

Until now, I've been happy knowing I can bypass an audio interface and solely utilize Montage's audio until I read about the unbalanced ins. This isn't looking to promising right now.

I was bothered by this (lack of balanced input) as well. I like what the S90SX does in offering a balanced XLR so I could just do a normal hookup using a normal mic. If I want to use a "lousy" sound source (like an MP3 player, CD player, etc) that uses low-grade outputs, then on the S90SX I can use the combo XLR/1/4" input to convert from the "lesser" port to a 1/4" fairly easily - and I'm compromising what's already a less pristine source. However, still sticking with the S90SX - the pristine source (like an expensive MIC - or balanced outputs from other "pro" equipment) is not compromised and can use XLR.

The Montage strategy was to favor line-in type devices when they chose the unbalanced input for the sidechain type stuff which could come from unbalanced sources like an ipad. I think the whole ipad+music trend is serving to "dumb down" products - hopefully we'll get out of this or tablets will demand higher end audio I/O for these types of applications such that you couldn't really get analog audio I/O (for music applications) without using balanced connections.

Like I said - erase everything I said before and stick with the latest post.

Knowing you have a VoiceLive 2 - I would use the L/R XLR outputs and get something like the Whirlwind Little Imp. Note: I don't work for Whirlwind or gain anything by mentioning them. I just did a search and found there aren't that many choices. Radio Shack has something (seen complaints about the connectors used). I think Hosa has something. I looked up the price which was pretty cheap for the Little Imp and figured that was good enough. So in your final setup, you'd have one cable and a converter to go from XLR to the TS. This is pretty good.

"Also the S/PDIF in/out. Your explanation was assuming not so." I'd have to dig - but maybe you can provide some context so I can understand more clearly what you're referring to.

Jason,

I took a little time to get my head around all of this .. Information overload, thank you! 🙂 I did some Googling and read reviews about the Whirlwind Little Imp. This seems like a very modest approach and reopened the door again for purchasing Montage. If you visit the page and scroll down there is another one that looks nice also. (Audix) The VL2 also has a GND LIFT switch which may help if needed, https://www.amazon.com/Whirlwind-LITTLE-IMP-Little/dp/B0002MSQWA

Just wondering if there will be any noticeable degrading of the signal to the A/D ins. I mention this because currently my mic (Neumann M147 Tube) comes out of a 737 Avalon to the VoiceLive 2 and then to an Ensemble (first addition) and no longer supported. Over the past year I have noticed a drop in audio quality and I'm currently fighting with latency. This is why I have been questioning the A/D possibilities before hopping into another audio interface. Regarding S/PDIF, I was just mentioning them as another set of in/outs on VL2. Thanks again Jason for all of your input it really helped.

I'm not sure Amazon suggests the same things to everyone - but if you're talking about the Audix T-50K what I do not like about it is the length of wire from the 1/4" TS jack to the transformer section which is embedded with the XLR connector. This run of wire is not balanced - and we are trying to minimize this distance. The adapters which do not have this wire section reduce the unbalanced section to the shortest run thus minimizing potential for noise injection.

I don't know about all these other environments and some of the information seems extraneous to the A/D input (when you mentioned the environment you were noticing latency).

Whenever you are "hooking up" analog devices in a chain - or point-to-point - there are lots of variables. As I mentioned before - I don't know the lowest level of detail of how the TC does their output stage (the datsheet shows 100ohm impedance for the balanced output - which is "low impedance" or "low Z") - on the Yamaha side I didn't see a tech spec for the A/D input - but unbalanced 1/4" is typically high impedance ("high z"). This is where the transformer comes in to impedance match. Back to the TC - I do not see how exactly they elected to connect the 3 pins of the XLR and the shield. So if any scheme is going to sound good or bad depends on all the players (pieces of equipment connected) following the best practices. Of course you know/have an appreciation for this from your audiophile stereo world. Its a game of weakest link. I'm trying to ensure the interconnect (cable/adapters) are not a weak link.

If all you're trying to do is resolve a beat from some source connected to the A/D input - much of this may not matter. So you may see less than ideal setups out there that work fine. Your approach and solution is therefore guided by what you're trying to accomplish.

I will stick with the Whirlwind, it sounds to me this will do the job.
If not I can always add an audio interface and use it and Montage as needed.
Regarding latency I was just babbling on.. (sorry about that) I will address this with a newer computer as I am running an older OS and an unsupported audio interface. Thank you for your help and time, very much appreciated. I can move forward now.

One last thing I just noticed that BM (Phil) added to a post (12 above) this one:

I don't know if this changes anything but from the VoiceLive 2 manual:

If you are using a snake to connect to an offstage mixer, then the XLR outputs can be connected without the need for DI boxes. The output of the XLR jacks is the same as the 1/4” jacks: line level (maximum +16 dBu). Both the XLR and TRS output jacks can be used at the same time when required.

Any input is much appreciated. Thanks.

The advantage of TRS is the three wires in the cable (whether XLR or 1/4" ) is on long cable runs (certainly a "snake" would mean a long cable run) you are going to have a situation where cables become antennas. They will start to pick up radio interference. But since it will get into both the hot and cold wire equally the interference will be completely cancelled at the end. So it's not that balanced is more professional, it is when there are going to long cable runs it is the smart thing to do. Six to ten feet is consider short, 20 feet or more is considered long...
never use those curly cables... they increase the cable Length and are wonderful antenna.

DI boxes typically take in unbalanced signal (usually connect by short cables from the source) and then run balanced signal from there via a long balanced 3-wire cable. So it's not that the balanced cable is impervious to radio interference, it is that it cancels it at the end of the cable run.

Hope that helps.

Thank you BM and Jason. I must admit some of the technical information provided here is going over my head and hard for me to decipher. The Voicelive 2 outs are balanced and from what I can see Line Level. The connection from VL2 to the Montage will only be about 3' All I am trying to find out is when connecting the VL2 to the Montage (With or without the DI in between, which I will gladly purchase for improved sound) "Will I be selecting "Mic or Line Level on the Montage". I don't want to break anything and trying to figure out whether or not an additional expense for an audio interface will be required. I truly apologize for my lack of understanding and will put this to rest now. Thanks!

Please see the VL2 output specs:

Louis wrote:

Thank you BM and Jason. I must admit some of the technical information provided here is going over my head and hard for me to decipher. The Voicelive 2 outs are balanced and from what I can see Line Level. The connection from VL2 to the Montage will only be about 3' All I am trying to find out is when connecting the VL2 to the Montage (With or without the DI in between, which I will gladly purchase for improved sound) "Will I be selecting "Mic or Line Level on the Montage". I don't want to break anything and trying to figure out whether or not an additional expense for an audio interface will be required. I truly apologize for my lack of understanding and will put this to rest now. Thanks!

Please see the VL2 output specs:

You are connecting a LINE level Out from the VL2, set the Montage to LINE.
It is not as complicated as you seem to think. Nothing additional to purchase.

Thank you.

Hi!
Just got my Montage 6 in my studio and I love it. Will still ofcourse keep my DX7 from 1984, but its gonna get dusty 🙂

I'm looking for a good headset mic to use with the Montage for vocoder purposes (live) and found the Shure SM35. Now.. The problem is that its either wireless (not interested in that approach) or.... balanced xlr.. So googling I stumbled on this thread. Would you suggest that Little Imp "converter" in my case as well?

Thanks in advance,
//val

Asking because it said (googling) that little imp is good for low impedance -> high impedance and the sm35 is 2500ohms...

valdi wrote:

Hi!
Just got my Montage 6 in my studio and I love it. Will still ofcourse keep my DX7 from 1984, but its gonna get dusty 🙂

I'm looking for a good headset mic to use with the Montage for vocoder purposes (live) and found the Shure SM35. Now.. The problem is that its either wireless (not interested in that approach) or.... balanced xlr.. So googling I stumbled on this thread. Would you suggest that Little Imp "converter" in my case as well?

Thanks in advance,
//val

The Mic you have chosen requires phantom power (it’s a condenser mic) check with the manufacturer about what comes with the XLR model, but being a condenser you will need to supply it with +48V from some source before plugging into the synthesizer.

Not sure of what a Little Imp is but I’m pretty sure it’s not a source for phantom power.