For context, my current "studio" is a Moog Voyager XL, Moog Minitaur, Arturia Minifreak, Elektron Digitakt, and Ableton Live Suite. I don't have the FA-08 anymore -- probably should have bought a Montage at the time -- but of course none of that has led to compositions that had any kind of orchestral or filmic sound to it, etc.

My main interest is in composing music (synth-y and video game-y)

There is quite a bit of difference between 'composing music' and 'creating new sounds'.

Can you give us an idea as to what 'mix' of those two things you need/want to do? Mostly compose? Mostly create new sounds? 80% of one 20% of the other?

Another question for you - do you need to compose music and know what it will sound like when it is reproduced on other hardware?

Just because the music you produce sounds great on the Montage doesn't mean it will sound like that in other environments like a video game console or poor sound system.

So it would be useful to know the target audience/system for what you want to create in order to better guide you.

I'll just mention a couple of CAVEATS that come up often in the forum

The Montage/Modx synths are great at producing existing sounds and assisting in composing using existing sounds.

They don't give the serious sound designers the full control over all aspects/parameters of the sounds they are trying to create. You can certainly create some beautiful, complex sounds but there is a pretty steep learning curve and ilttle documentation to help you if you aren't an audio expert.

You don't have full control over all aspects of envelope creation (ASDR) for either pitch or amplitude.

You don't have full control over all aspects of various filters. For most filters there is little or no technical documentation at all and no indication what a particular parameter value really means.

For example a CUTOFF value you specify is an offset to an internal value that is unknown to you. You can't set it to a specific frequency and you won't know what the actual base frequency is unless you use a spectrum analyzer.

There are no exposed formulas to explain the non-linear curves/calculations that are applied when you modify a parameter as most of the curves are NOT linear.

I'd classify myself in the advanced category when it comes to designing new sounds. I'd define that: can I get a synth to make the sound I am hearing in my head (is it bright or dark, does it fade in and out, or is it staccato, does it evolve in timbre or does it stay the same, etc.). Most synths take the subtractive path: oscillator -> filter and apply an envelope, LFO, or step sequence as a control voltage to those. But I'm also very familiar with FM synthesis as well. I won't claim to be as much an expert in FM -- it'd take me longer to design a sound there, but I'm not shy about digging in menus. I did have an SY77 for a while and I really enjoyed that. Montage seems like an SY77, but the modern version but without AWM as an FM oscillator.

If I had to summarize the Montage, it's going to be good for sound design in that you can layer several ADSR'd samples + filters. It's not going to be a Eurorack, Buchla, Moog modular or anything, but I think the real interest is in the quality of the acoustic samples.

When it comes to composition, I see that as the mixture of melody, harmony, counterpoint, chord progressions, beats, etc. I've listened to a lot of classical music, and I'm quite familiar with song forms, etc. Now, I'm definitely not a great composer, and I'd like to work on that. I'd say the split is 50% sound design / composing.

I don't have a well-rounded set of acoustic sounds to work with atm. For hardware, I'm considering the Kurzweil K2700 or Yamaha Montage. However, I'm sure someone will say that I should use something like Halion, Omnisphere, Spit Fire, or something for doing sounds and use a MIDI keyboard for a master controller and not bother with hardware sounds unless it's an analog synthesizer. I'm open to lots of opinions here. I just want to see what's working for other people.

I want to go from composing single songs to composing a suite of music that's centered around a theme. For example, I'd like to be able to compose music for a video game, or an album of instrumental music that's a mix of electronic and acoustic sounds. My target audience is myself (creating my own voice and music) to share on SoundCloud and to branch out into creating music packs for game developers to use -- that's the long term goal.

To that end, the main product is just a stem, an audio file containing the music. The process I want to use is multi-tracking in a DAW. The synthesizer I'm looking at is getting should be a mix of a good controller for the DAW and a good-enough sound source for composing music.

That was long-winded, but I hope it conveys that I have just enough technical expertise to learn how to work on an album-oriented project or a video-game oriented project. I just want to see how Montage has turned out to be useful in a composer-oriented music studio. Every musical instrument has a voice and a certain amount of time to invest to get good with it -- is Montage that musical instrument that's made for this? What is the audience for this instrument?

Thanks for the additional info.

but I think the real interest is in the quality of the acoustic samples.

That goes to the heart of the point I was trying to make.

You aren't going to beat Yamaha for the quality of the samples they provide. But they don't provide much detail or documentation about just what those samples contain and their makeup.

There are over 6,000 'waveforms' and each one is really a 'bank' of samples.

There are 88 keys on a piano. That doesn't mean that each of the piano 'waveform's includes samples of all 88 keys. For many sets there is a lot of interpolation that goes on.

Some 'duplicate' samples are done at multiple strike velocities - soft, medium, hard. Some have attacks while others have had the 'attack' excluded to support different playing styles - legato versus stacato
.
The Montage is limited in capability for manipulating the libraries. So for that work you might consider the John Melas tools that let you more easily move things around.

My first 'hunch' is that you will want to use a combination of things: Montage for the samples and sound production, DAW for the composing, Melas (or other) tools for managing libraries, a good arranger and a good sequencer (another Montage weak area).

My second 'hunch' is that unless you have an immediate need you should wait to see what Yamaha's October surprise is going to be.

They don't discontinue items lightly so I expect whatever the replacement is it should have some major new features.

If you are going to start a trek up a learning curve you could do well by becoming one of the 1st experts on the new system. Literally NO ONE outside Yamaha will know anything about the new system or how to take advantage of all it has to offer.

You are in a particularly good position for that since your goal is to integrate an instrument into a studio-type setup that includes DAW, computer and other instruments.

So the field will be wide open to become a leading source of knowledge about that. You could become the 'Bad Mister' of the new tech!

There is a lot to be said about being FIRST to explore a new technology. You won't get a better chance than this.

I have a FA 06, a Montage 7, and a K2700. So in theory, I should be able to offer some pointers. (Maybe, maybe not.) I think the Roland is OK but very weird, childish and brash. It has a lot if sounds, (over 2000) some are very good, most not so. The Montage is typical Yamaha solid quality, and the sounds (I now have 4,700 of them) are very good, but only some are really fantastic. The Kurzweil sounds are even better (current total 1,800).

So I only have time for Preset sounds and 3rd party sounds. I don' t have time to delve deeper just to create one or two unique sounds. Instead I tweak the presets, layer them and find that that provides plenty of inspiration for creating a song. (Having so many sounds is probably a bit over the top, but I keep trimming them down!) So my advice is go for the K2700, get loads of 3rd party sounds or wait for Montage+ (but that could be up to 12 months before they are ready.) Have a look at 3rd party sounds on offer, they may cover what you want. Otherwise a steep learning curve may be required to create sounds, whatever the keyboard. Good luck.

I had an FA-08 for several years. It would have been nice for all the EXP expansion sound sets to be available -- instead you were limited to two and that killed it for me for composition. It would have added value to get more sound editing knobs too. In the end, the keybed was too heavy-felt for actual playing. But, now they have Zenology Pro, so if I want the Roland character, I could just buy that too....but it's not on a keyboard, and this converstion is about that. And speaking of that, I know that I could put down $1000 and buy SpitFire's Complete Orchestra package, and I may end up doing that anyways. All that to say, I tried the Roland offering, but in the end I think it's better suited for electronic and pop music composition -- which is cool, but not the direction I'm going in (well, to a degree, but that's why I have a Moog Voyager).

But I really appreciate the advice of considering the K2700 too. The only thing I'm concerned about there is that it's only offered in the big 88-key size, which I'm not completely against, but I'm hoping more for a 61 key version for the size). Does it feel heavy like a grand piano, or light like a springy, semi-weighted piano? I could really go for a waterfall keyboard like they do on the Nord Stage.

How do you feel the Montage and the K2700 stacks up in terms of Orchestral and Acoustic instrument sounds? I think without question, the Rhodes/Wurlitzer/Hammond/Vox/DX7/Piano/Organ sounds are good everywhere.

And do you have recommendations for your favorite 3rd party sound libraries?

I am aware of SoundMondo and Sample Robot, but I need to look at what's there....that could be really cool.

One affordable radical newcomer is MPE Osmose. Nothing like it anywhere in hardware form. I have (2) Osmose units, the Oberheim OB-X8 module, the iridium module. Getting the new Montage2. I have the Fantom but don't use it much. If I need real sounds I use my Yamaha YC73. For variety you get 5 sound engines inside the iridium that can do 6 oscillators at once each with 8 subs so 48. Osmose can do things never done before and with the editor could be endless. The OB-X8 is an analog dream machine so perfectly balanced. Not sure what Yamaha has coming our way but the competition is fierce currently. The pairing of Osmose and OB-X8 sounds together you'd never believe was possible without it being 4 times the price. There's literally no end to inspiration with those three. Osmose is the best synth I've ever played for my taste. It makes you a better musician by default if you like to be expressive and original. You can't stop playing it. It can play 3 layers at once which isn't advertised.

These are my first Expressive E, Oberheim, ASM and Waldorf instruments ever owned. Before that I was new to Roland and Hammond SKpro and Korg. I've owned almost everything Yamaha has made going back to the 90s. I'm in my 50s now able financially to try a lot more stuff and of course the global second hand market can mean everything is almost free if you keep it like new and resell it. Except for the inflated fees and taxes.

I've yet to own a Kurz, Novation or Nord or others I didn't list having owned. Had a Moog once and a Arturia once.

Interesting discussion. I am also interested in the K2700 because on paper, it ticks all my boxes, and compared to other flagship keyboards it is quite affordable, too.

I have limited first-hand experiences esp. on the Kurzweil side (I do have a MOXF, so I know the older Yamaha Motif AWM2 sounds). However, after reading reviews, tech specs and listening to demos, I got a bit the impression that one of Yamaha's strengths is a quite consistent (high) quality throughout the samples. Also, I think they did some new sample sessions for Montage (e.g. for Pianos and Strings). On the Kurzweil side however (and this might also be true for Roland) I am not so sure whether there are any new samples at all in the K2700 as compared to e.g. the older Forte etc. Plus, I got the impression that some of the instruments sound a bit dated (90ties). Not sure if it's true though, would have to play it myself to really figure it out! On the other hand I liked the Kurz Piano and was quite impressed by some of the VA demos.

So... now I will definitely wait for the Montage successor for a decision. To me, the current Montage lacks a VA engine, so if Yamaha closes this gap I might be in.

I've typically heard consensus that Kurzweil strings are (exceptionally) good.

Here's one comparison video that does cover an arbitrary string patch for both Montage and the K2700:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_lg1Pdrow4

This one focuses on pianos (and covers a lot more other keyboards - use index to skip around):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRhVS9KA2FM

An interesting Kurzweil-centric discussion:

https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/181290-in-the-lab-kurzweil-k2700/

And K2700 centric review:

https://youtu.be/vilbNl8Pk9w

Ultimately it's probably best to go into a music store that has all of the keyboards you're trying to compare and attempt to get a first-hand impression. I say "attempt" because sometimes it would take some time to ramp up on using a keyboard to know where to find the sounds and use of available "modifiers" to the sound (sliders, buttons, knobs). Without much experience on a given keyboard you may miss some of what's available.

Still, I think it's best to experience the keyboard itself and always make this music store evaluation a part of my pre-purchase routine.

The Kurzweil K2700 is about 11 lbs lighter than the current Montage 8. Kurzweil as a company has been around for quite a while. I like the K2700, but I don't care for the small, low resolution LCD screen. The new Montage coming out in October will likely have a large, higher resolution LCD/OLED screen that will be much easier on the eyes. If you don't mind small, slightly fuzzy screens, more power to you. If the Kurzweil K2700 had a bigger, higher resolution screen, it would have been on my radar because it sounds great and has an advanced feature set. Plus, you get 256 note polyphony across the entire range of the keyboard, which is a bonus. It only comes in 88 keys, so if you prefer 76/61 keys with synth action keys, you're out of luck. I suspect the new Montage will be available in 88-key, 76-key, and 61 key versions just like the outgoing Montage series. So much we don't know, since Yamaha runs a very tight-lipped ship. But at least we do know a new Montage variant awaits in the near future, therefore the hype/excitement will continue to build as the official launch approaches. Meeting or even exceeding expectations will make the wait well worth it. I'm very much interested in the 76-key version, if in fact, Yamaha makes one. ?

Although I guess sometimes studio workbench table footprint (i.e. size) matters (it's got to fit where you're going to stick it) I would think that composition means that the keyboard isn't going to be hauled around and sits there in the studio. If that is indeed the case, then weight doesn't matter nearly as much.

For a gigging keyboard the weight (for me) comes into play and I would not be able to haul around the K2700. However, as a studio non-gigging keyboard it'd be fine.

Kurzweil traditionally has more advanced MIDI implementations. I think the keyboardist for Weird Al Yankovic has an (old) article describing why he uses a Kurzweil as a master controller. When I've checked out the docs - I tend to agree that Kurzweil offers a lot of flexibility in MIDI routing and controller mappings. Typically the keyboards are 16 zone capable which is a rare feature.

The flexibility of the keyboard may not matter - but if you start collecting lots of external (to your master keyboard) devices and software instruments - it may start to matter.

I suppose you could layer 2 or 3 Osmose strings with other violin, brass &/or reed/wind for a stunning envelope per finger experience. It's like a separate section player per individual finger. Not sure there are any videos that come close to how good it is in person. It has plenty of modeled acoustic and stringed instruments that you don't hear about until to sit at the keys yourself. So on a traditional keyboard no matter how perfect the samples are all you can do is note on/off/hold/release or remove your left hand to pretend to be actually playing it. IF you're lucky it has some super articulation automated feature to make is seem more realistic. On Osmose you can instantly bend notes and open and close filters and/or change the envelope per note individually same as you are playing the whole orchestra, using all 10 of your fingers, yourself. Or play one note at a time and it still kills everything else available. You can name each finger if you like such as Fred, Sally, George, John etc. they are each individual musicians. No reason to play the old type keyboards anymore. It's kind of dumb and archaic we still have them after Osmose. About 30 minutes after you play the Osmose going back to dead-keys becomes very annoying because they don't actually do anything anymore. You (we) will never sound realistic without a realistic interface even as much as the pre-programmed machine attempts to fake it. Listen to a good sax player compared to a regular synth board solo like from the 80/90s. The sax player can manipulate the sound 20 different ways in the span of 15 seconds. The old synth can do what 5 and less with chords? Osmose can probably do close to 20 and with chords and layers. That's why I bought two.

Jonathan, re your post # 122609:
(This may be a Yamaha forum but here I try to sell you the K2700!)

Keys: The K2700 has Fatar TP40L keys. These are weighted hammer action but not graded. The ‘L’ means light touch, so it feels like a lightish Piano, but is also fast enough for synth playing. It does have a small tendency to bounce a wee bit on key release – its a bit underdamped. But I never knew about this until after 18 months when I looked closely. It is not noticeable at all when playing. I set the velocity curve to ‘Piano’, and it is very good. Also I use the K2700 (via midi) with Pianoteq on my PC – with excellant results. (If you want better piano key action try the Fatar TP400W as used on Dexibell S10 [expensive] and Studiologics Numa X GT [cheap]. Alternately the Numa X Piano 73 keys are TP 110 which are apparently very good too, (better than TP40L), albeit still not with graded action.)

Sounds: As for K2700 Preset sounds, the pianos are very good, and the strings are excellant – one reason Kurzweil PC3K’s are used a lot in musical theatre. Have a look at Tony Whites (Bonners UK) K2700 demos:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp-Y75I-p2g https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4CNMPSL1TO0

I have 3rd party sounds from these suppliers:
1) https://www.synthonia.com/marketplace/kurzweil/k2700
2) https://www.kurzweilworld.com/
3) http://megapreset.com/?download_category=kurzweil-k2700
4) https://www.barbandco.com/store/c95/Kurzweil_K2700.html
5) https://enjoythesirens.com/get/get-sounds.html
6) https://www.aos-pro.com/products/kurzweil-5/pc3k.html

Some only have PC3 (6) or PC3K (5) sounds but these work fine in the K2700. Some of the above focus on sounds as used on famous tracks (1, 5), most others produce discrete sounds for any use. For synth sounds that you can tweak look at Barb and Co., who are top notch. For the worlds best orchestral and some good piano sounds look at Pedro Carrilho (2) – watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHGRqtJ4SS8
I have Pedro’s PC3K sounds and they work on the K2700 just fine.

Alternative: So, if you can fit 88 keys, the K2700 is (currently) a good choice. If not, consider the much cheaper Numa X Piano 73 key: https://www.studiologic-music.com/products/numa_x_piano/
With that you won’t get a brilliant synth – its mainly a piano - and has just a few (very good) sounds, but its midi can be used to play PC based sounds, and its TP110 keys (and Preset piano sounds) are very good. (Maybe you could download the free NumaPlayer for a tryout.)