Small? Not really. Small is a relative word, I guess. That 1.75GB is more than twice the size of the entire Motif XF's WAVE ROM. So, I guess it's a matter of perspective. And since the Montage comes with 5.67GB of resident WAVE ROM which is almost 5GB more WAVE ROM than the XF plus then there is the FM-X engine; there will be no shortage of sound generating muscle. Can't expect many who've, perhaps, never played or owned an FM engine, to understand the sonic window the FM-X engine opens. The Montage can hold up to eight sample libraries in memory.

Data sizes vary greatly, from the meticulously detailed over-the-top sessions like the Chick Codes Mark V (400MB) to the extremely popular "Power Grand" (2.4MB), to the CP1 CF Grand (121MB), what you choose to keep additional in the user memory is of course, up to the individual. On average the typical XF Library runs under 128MB... And remember 8 libraries can be resident at a time _ so management of multiple files is really a no- brainer.

Small is 1.75GB + 5.67GB = 8GB or so for a keyboard that costs $4500 while I have a Samsung Galaxy S2 phone with twice as much memory that's 5 years old and is worth about $150. It doesn't really make any sense. Just saying.

Hi Matt,
But you're wrong. Respectfully, you couldn't be more wrong.
You are talking apples and Jupiter's moons, to you memory is just size and $$ - but this is just a bit naive because your phone cannot access and playback 128 stereo channels of sampled audio and generate 128 notes of FM-X. Really just saying you need to understand a bit more about memory types/cost and what it takes to access and playback audio in the type of access times demanded by a musical instrument. Your phone is in a whole different category of device. Just saying, your point is not even remotely credible, no disrespect intended, but really.

Just to clarify that: The Montage doesn't come with "5.67GB of resident WAVE ROM"! It comes with 5.67 GB when converted to 16 bit linear format (but internally, samples reside in a compressed format)! So the physical WAVE ROM (including the 1.75GB of user memory) of the Montage presumably is not 8GB but only 4GB!

@Phil: Can you please comment on the type of Flash that is used in the Montage? Is it NOR Flash that was used in the Motif XF/MOXF series, or is it parallel NAND Flash (as in the PSR-S970; see my post here: https://yamahasynth.com/index.php?option=com_easydiscuss&view=post&id=5331&Itemid=851#reply-5481) which is nearly ten times more cost efficiant than NOR Flash. You said "you need to understand a bit more about memory types/cost"; then please tell us!

BTW: I have heard from at least one seller of libraries that one of the main reasons for creating libraries not bigger than 128MB is that they can be "quickly previewed" in the Motif's 128MB of RAM. It also depends on the type of library: A nice 8 layer piano or rhodes alone takes much more than 128MB (and as you can see -using the example of Korg Kronos and EXS libraries-, with growing user memory, libraries tend to get bigger and probably better: https://shop.korg.com/kronosSoundLibraries). Let's say, I want to load K-Sounds Epic Grand (500MB, 16 bit linear), Chicks Mark V (400MB, WXC compressed), DSF Symphonic Strings (450MB), then there is not much memory left for e.g. a good amount of wav files for backing tracks. I find that quite limiting in the year 2016 (and no, I am NOT WRONG!)

1.75GB of user memory are three steps back compaired to the 4GB of Flash in the Motif (when using two of the 2GB Mutec FMC-07 modules: http://www.thomann.de/gb/mutec_fmc_07.htm), despite the limitations of the Motif concerning the maximum number of waveforms/keybanks per Flash module (which were also home-made by Yamaha due to OS limitations). And yes, at least for me, 1.75GB IS SMALL (no need to discuss or deny that ...)!

Regards, 😉

Jo

Johannes,
You are misinformed. The Montage comes with 5.67GB of WAVE ROM - the Motif XF comes with 741MB of WAVE ROM. Those are facts.
The XS 355MB, the ES 175MB, and the original had 84MB measuring data in the same way. AWM2 is Yamaha's proprietary method of storing and retrieving audio sampled data. It is one of two synthesis engines in the Montage.

If you wish to load those three sample-based libraries you mention, you can, if you've been streaming your backing tracks from your Flash boards, we might recommend you stream them from a reliable USB drive, instead. That is a great (better) use of the XF's ability to continuously stream wav files from a connected drive, leaving your Flash memory for your loaded libraries. After all, your backing tracks can be streamed in stereo. Leave the 128 stereo audio channel capability for items that need the high speed real-time access that instrument sounds require. (Yes, we can see how in your own mind you're not WRONG) that's not what this discussion is about. It's important to feel you are not WRONG in what you are trying to do, no, you are not WRONG... Just a little confused, perhaps, about the best way to use your memory.

If Montage (reads) like it is "three steps back" for you, really, truly, then so be it. If you are happy with your XF you'll still get many years of good service from it, we're quite sure. 🙂

The amount and selection of sounds in the Montage, and more specifically, the way Montage handles libraries is based on a lot of thought and a lot on how musicians actually use their gear. This does not mean it will work exactly the way you, as an individual, have been working or envision working... That would be impossible to do - to make everyone happy.

Fortunately, you can stay with the XF - we'll still support it here, but we ask you to place your XF questions in the appropriate forum heading.

It has been my experience that the more some one says how 'backward' and the more they state 'what were they thinking' - the more that person actually wants to buy the new keyboard. I understand, I highly recommend, before you, Johannes, before you back yourself into an Internet frenzied position where you state categorically it is "three steps back"... You at least try playing one. How silly would it be to prejudge anything before you've actually seen or heard one, before youve actually played one? Even assuming you will need the example libraries that you mentioned is premature. Is it not? (Forgive me, don't mean to sound unconcerned about your stated concerns, but I don't really take these opinions too seriously until I'm talking with someone who has at least played one- it exponentially and immediately raises the status of the comment to worthy of listening to it. Because it's the reaction to the actual experience of playing one that counts. Until that point... It's all based on your ability to take a spec and translate it to anything meaningful. You can't tell a plate of mashed potatoes from a bowl of ice cream until you experience it. Why would I listen to complaints about serving temperature until the potential customer has sampled the goods?

I have quotes from people telling me very passionately back in 2001, how Motif would never sell without a floppy disk drive. How it would never sell without a touch screen. No one will use SmartMedia cards, etc, "It,'s 2001, c'mon Yamaha, wake up!" 🙂

@Phil: Can you please comment on the type of Flash that is used in the Montage?

Sorry I have no comment on your comments here or anywhere else about the kind of memory used or why it was used. If you have questions on how to save and/or load data, I'll be able to help you with that. I deal in "How to..." questions, not "How come... questions!

(I can ask, but then what?)
I trust the people responsible for making the decisions that they have good reason for the decisions made. Turning specifications and concepts into a working musical product, an instrument, is a complex task. If Yamaha wants to explain those decisions it will come in the product documentation, until then its just stuff to read and speculate about between now and the product shipping. Feel free, Speculate away... But reserve your opinion until you've played it, its the best way to be fair to yourself. Even thinking about what you will need to load is a bit premature.

I heard it's based on some area 51 alien technology 🙂

Bad Mister wrote:

Johannes,
You are misinformed. The Montage comes with 5.67GB of WAVE ROM - the Motif XF comes with 741MB of WAVE ROM. Those are facts.
The XS 355MB, the ES 175MB, and the original had 84MB measuring data in the same way. AWM2 is Yamaha's proprietary method of storing and retrieving audio sampled data. It is one of two synthesis engines in the Montage.

Sorry, but that is just not true! These values do not mirror the internal physical memory space, but rather the size of the compressed sample material when converted to 16 bit linear format (just have a look at your website: "Preset: 5.67 GB (when converted to 16 bit linear format)"; http://usa.yamaha.com/products/music-production/synthesizers/montage/montage6/?mode=model#tab=product_lineup -> "Specs"). Internally, samples reside in a compressed format and take up much less physical memory!

For example, the Motif XS has two slots of Flash memory for WAVE ROM. Each of them has 64MB for a total of 128MB. Thus, 355MB of WAVE ROM (when converted to 16 bit linear format) take up 128MB or less of physical memory internally.

Bad Mister wrote:

If you wish to load those three sample-based libraries you mention, you can, if you've been streaming your backing tracks from your Flash boards, we might recommend you stream them from a reliable USB drive, instead. That is a great (better) use of the XF's ability to continuously stream wav files from a connected drive, leaving your Flash memory for your loaded libraries. After all, your backing tracks can be streamed in stereo. Leave the 128 stereo audio channel capability for items that need the high speed real-time access that instrument sounds require. (Yes, we can see how in your own mind you're not WRONG) that's not what this discussion is about. It's important to feel you are not WRONG in what you are trying to do, no, you are not WRONG... Just a little confused, perhaps, about the best way to use your memory.

If I'm playing live, I want to be able to start a backing track with a press of a single button or key. And the backing track should be best synchronized with a MIDI click (or MIDI clock). For me, it is not a good way to manually navigate to a folder in the USB-Stick and then search for the right wave-file before starting it each time. And can you explain to me how to synchronize a wave-file played from USB with a click (without using a stereo wave-file with the backing track panned left and the audio-click panned right? Or how to change the volume of the backing track on the fly, and independently of the main volume? 😉 Believe me, I (and many others) am not confused about the best way to accomplish that...to tell you the truth, I find your proposal (streaming from USB) a little bit "confused" and impractical...

Bad Mister wrote:

How silly would it be to prejudge anything before you've actually seen or heard one, before youve actually played one? Even assuming you will need the example libraries that you mentioned is premature.

I didn't judge about the Montage as a whole! I judged about the small amound of user memory, and nothing else! The libraries I mentioned were just examples using more space than "the typical XF Library" under 128MB. In fact, it is purpose of the user memory to load libraries onto it. If you call me (or my criticism concerning little user memory; I don't have to play Montage to judge about 1.75GB) "silly", you should probably visit a training in good behavior and social manners... 😉

Regards, 🙂

Jo

I knew you would like (or understand) the answer, but whatever... Peace.

Okay but wait a minute. Maybe both are correct in perspectives but we're all left hanging here concerning the wave Rom. Apples to apples, separately from compression or not, does Montage literally have 5.67GB of physical memory directly related to the 741mb in the XF? If both numerical figures are presented as both being "when converted to16bit linear format" then they are apples to apples. If one is while the other is not then they are unrelated and should not be advertised in the product comparisons.

1.75 GB isn't exactly shooting for the moon. jmo, its not a life changer here. the great advantage of yamaha's flash design is you don't have to wait for samples to load into a usable memory location, ala some other boards with "larger" storage memory.

the disadvantage is that type of memory is alot more expensive. hence 1.75. eh, ... a shame we can't mount a pair of FL1024 cards in it for those that are memory hogs.

I think it's important we all keep this in mind.

Bad Mister wrote: … I deal in "How to..." questions, not "How come... questions! …

Notice the ! in "How Come!". Excessive "How come!" questions have got to be wearisome. And for those of us who have professional Yamaha keyboards, we know getting our "How to …" questions answered are invaluable in understanding Yamaha-flow.

--
I understand that voicing dissatisfaction seems like a way to effecting change with a manufacturer. As I don't know about this I can't comment on its efficacy. But remember, Bad Mister is here supporting Yamaha keyboards. And as he has shown & explained, he is here specifically addressing "how to …" questions. He does this reliably & effectively. I think we'll gain more through civility.

--
"Have it all" is elusive.

--
Comparing phone/tablet/computer memory size to Yamaha's music synthesizer memory is meaningless if you pay attention and find what you get in a Yamaha music synthesizer meaningful. If neither applies, what brought you here?

I heard it's based on some area 51 alien technology 🙂

Or maybe it's the technology that the giant saucer used to play that little tune back in Close Encounters Of The Third Kind… 🙂

Bad Mister wrote:

Hi Matt,
But you're wrong. Respectfully, you couldn't be more wrong.
You are talking apples and Jupiter's moons, to you memory is just size and $$ - but this is just a bit naive because your phone cannot access and playback 128 stereo channels of sampled audio and generate 128 notes of FM-X. Really just saying you need to understand a bit more about memory types/cost and what it takes to access and playback audio in the type of access times demanded by a musical instrument. Your phone is in a whole different category of device. Just saying, your point is not even remotely credible, no disrespect intended, but really.

Yeah, I'm not claiming to know anything about computer hardware and so forth. Like you said, "small" is a relative term. No offense taken! I don't mean to diss to Montage in any way, but when you guys use a selling point like "5.67GB of wave ROM", that's really meaningless to me. I bought a 5TB hard drive for like $150 last month. I'm just saying it sounds ridiculous in this day and age. Sure, you're selling to professionals who might know what that means. I'm just an amateur musician. I don't know anything.

Cheers,
Matt

Matt wrote:

Yeah, I'm not claiming to know anything about computer hardware and so forth. Like you said, "small" is a relative term. No offense taken! I don't mean to diss to Montage in any way, but when you guys use a selling point like "5.67GB of wave ROM", that's really meaningless to me. I bought a 5TB hard drive for like $150 last month. I'm just saying it sounds ridiculous in this day and age. Sure, you're selling to professionals who might know what that means. I'm just an amateur musician. I don't know anything.

Cheers,
Matt

Hi Matt,

This memory thing is relative to the previous Yamaha XF flagship which had 741MB of wave rom as compared to the 5.67GB in Montage. So in RELATIVE terms you can notice the significant change. With this comparison we are comparing apples to apples. Let's say that your cell phone memory is a bowling ball and it's large and fast traveling down the lane. Now let's say that the Montage memory is a baseball traveling at 97 miles per hour because it can. The bowling ball is larger in size and weight but it can never do what the baseball can do like the memory in the Montage. They are both memory (balls in my example) and they both accomplish their objectives but they are significantly different in their design capabilities.

Matt wrote:

Bad Mister wrote:

Hi Matt,
But you're wrong. Respectfully, you couldn't be more wrong.
You are talking apples and Jupiter's moons, to you memory is just size and $$ - but this is just a bit naive because your phone cannot access and playback 128 stereo channels of sampled audio and generate 128 notes of FM-X. Really just saying you need to understand a bit more about memory types/cost and what it takes to access and playback audio in the type of access times demanded by a musical instrument. Your phone is in a whole different category of device. Just saying, your point is not even remotely credible, no disrespect intended, but really.

Yeah, I'm not claiming to know anything about computer hardware and so forth. Like you said, "small" is a relative term. No offense taken! I don't mean to diss to Montage in any way, but when you guys use a selling point like "5.67GB of wave ROM", that's really meaningless to me. I bought a 5TB hard drive for like $150 last month. I'm just saying it sounds ridiculous in this day and age. Sure, you're selling to professionals who might know what that means. I'm just an amateur musician. I don't know anything.

Cheers,
Matt

Of course the size of the user memory is very small for 2018.

You don't know anything ?.

Don't think like that because thinking like that will lead others to decide your thoughts instead of your self .