Hi --

Just a few thoughts...

"Access and playback 128 stereo channels of sampled audio and generate 128 notes of FM-X" Phil makes a good point here. This is a real technical challenge. In order to sustain this kind of polyphony and DSP for effects, one needs at least three different memories, where waveform memory is only one type. The Montage (and Genos, and PSR-S970) tone generator is a bandwidth-hungry computational engine.

Yep, the Montage waveform memory is ONFI-compatible NAND flash. I took a quick tour of the Montage platform here: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/montage-hardware-platform/

I won't enter the memory size fray. As soon as someone says "4GBbytes," then the next person will say "8GBytes" and so on. (Ah, the Internet!) Folks do have their needs and I'm not going to judge or dictate.

What I will say. AWM2 is a complicated, evolving technology including compression. That's why it's called "Advanced Wave Memory." It's not just a marketing term. The compression part has allowed Yamaha to squeeze a large amount of high-quality content into insanely small physical space (i.e., physical wave memory). They have over 3 decades experience doing this. My old pal still in the studio: TG-500 with 8MBytes waveform ROM and I still have love.

One final point. I believe that the limiting factor (for Yamaha) is not the physical size of the waveform memory as much as the process and resources needed to make the high-quality, musician-satisfying content to fill it (samples and voices, er, performances). Same can be said for the Montage's sibling, Genos.

Hope this helps -- pj

https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/contents/music_production/synth_40th/history/chapter03/index.html

I assume Yamaha's design team made these decisions in developing its new flagship months or even years before its launch. Presumably, Yamaha re-engineered its product-concept to remain relevant in a shifting marketplace with the predominance of software-based instruments (where expansion-RAM is ample), and where full-fledged hardware "workstations" may be becoming less-relevant. Roland made their last workstation in 2008, the Fantom G. The Fantom's memory was expandable—to a whopping 1GB! However, what Roland did with that 1GB expansion was pretty amazing. Then in 2011, Korg introduced the Kronos. The latest model, "Kronos 2," comes with a 64GB SSD (≈62GB, formatted), with additional space to accommodate a user-installed second SSD (user-tested up to 1TB). And, to Korg's credit, Kronos' SSD-streaming technology definitely can benefit from additional SSD storage (though few users may require such ample storage).

Clearly, Yamaha is marketing something different in the Montage—a performance-oriented keyboard with improved sonic capabilities, and with class-leading DAW-connectivity. Kudos to Yamaha for taking this bold step forward.

From what I can gather, I'm guessing the Montage's physical memory totals 4GB, with factory-compressed waveforms occupying approximately 56% of that physical RAM (leaving 1.75GB available for user RAM). Since it's no longer marketed as a workstation, I suppose the design team deemed this amount adequate for the majority of their customers (that neither system RAM nor any other kind of memory expansion is available is another marketing decision).

Since I own a Kronos 2 (a recent purchase), the Montage's RAM capacity is less important to me. The Montage's 10,000 arps, improved sonic-engine, and built-in multi-channel I/O is what's attracting me to the product. Yamaha has long been a champion of computer connectivity (e.g., mLAN16E, FW16E, etc.), and the Montage represents the simplest, lowest-cost ("nothing else to buy!"), most advanced iteration of such connectivity to date. For those invested in full-fledged DAW-based music-creation, the Montage may be the best "sound-module" yet. For those who've always yearned for that "Motif sound" (people like me), this is Yamaha's latest and greatest, and I can't wait to get my hands on one!

I tend to agree that its not a great capacity in current times. When i heard about sample robot being free with the Montage i thought wow that will be amazing. Then i remembered Ive almost filled up my Montage so it wont be of any use to me anyway.

Scott wrote:

I tend to agree that its not a great capacity in current times. When i heard about sample robot being free with the Montage i thought wow that will be amazing. Then i remembered Ive almost filled up my Montage so it wont be of any use to me anyway.

I have basically settled on using the memory on my Montage on a per track/album/gig situation rather than a one memory fits all type scenario. So I'm filling the USER memory for whatever's needed at the time. It takes around 20+min or so to change it from one "sound world" to another (filling it with my own waveforms). This is my personal workaround.

Interesting debate. 😀

I must confess that I do not understand why Yamaha have set a specific FLASH size, which on paper does seem a tad on the small size in this day and age, but it seems to do the job for the libraries I have loaded (i.e. I haven't ran out yet), and I have sample streaming from SSD in my Kronos for really heavy weight stuff that I want in a "board".

BTW the Montage and Kronos make a nice combination - I have a Montage 7 for bottom tier duties (replaced my trusty EX5) and a Kronos X 61 for top tier duties.

And I also have in my gig rig a PC (about the size of a paperback novel) with a 500GB SSD and 32 GB RAM upon which I can run any heavy weight VST instrument including sample heavy ones like Omnisphere or Kontakt. I use this for all of my audio steaming for backing tracks, running light shows, etc. The PC is also a MIDI routing hub for everything I have on stage. So I guess I am saying the Montage FLASH size is fine for me in this context. 🙂

If I were to hazard a guess (and it is only a guess), then I would say that Montage designers have factored in the growing prevalence of computers with cheap storage in use on stage, and thus prioritized on certain Montage features instead, which works for me. When I looked at my likely stage needs for the next decade, I came to the conclusion that two of the top flight boards and a tuned PC were the solution for me.

Also, it is not often just size but what you do with it (did I really just say that 😉 ). Over at EX5Tech at the turn of century we delivered an amazing Mellotron sound set that fitted all the important waves in 16MB of FLASH. My SY99 is "maxed out" with a whopping 3.5MB of user sample memory, and I have another 2MB via a WaveBlade Card which puts in more user sample memory via the WAVE CARD slot, which was designed as ROM only, but a friend and myself delved into how to make a RAM version (my friend's work) and write the software to transfer samples into the RAM in the right format (my work). Even with "just" 5.5MB of user memory in total the SY99 still sounds awesome. 🙂

Derek wrote:
BTW the Montage and Kronos make a nice combination . . .

Hey, there Derek! I recognize your post-content from the Korg Forum! So glad to hear you say that! I recently had a Motif XF for a few days (which I loved!), but had to return it due to a problem. Now, I think a Montage is in my future since a B-stock Montage 6 or 7 isn't that much more than a mint-condition Motif XF. I have to agree, in the short time I had the Motif, I expect the Montage to be a terrific companion to my new Kronos! (I actually owned a Motif XS8 for a brief period before I got my Fantom G way back in 2008).

I also pretty much have my heart set on Spectrasonics' Omnisphere 2 as my sole software-instrument app/AU library for my Core i7 iMac (48GB RAM + 500GB SSD). But the more I seem to learn about my new DAW (Apple Logic Pro X), the more I seem inclined to stay all-hardware (the Fantom G's recorder is just so damned easy to use and keeps things really simple, plus, my 10-year-old G still makes some fantastic sounds—all with only 1GB of RAM!).

It does seem a mistake not to allow memory expansion for those that want it. Seems which ever keyboard you get there are some compromises though. I like a lot of what the Montage does and would consider getting one to replace my old Fantom X.

As complex or simple as AWM2 is - the last generation had more physical memory when you add up the internal plus expansion (flash boards) memory. It seems somewhat strange to have the arc of expansion memory available to the user (in full configuration) to go downward from one generation to another.

I completely agree that looking at toaster ovens or cell phones is not a great comparison. The Jupiter and zebra (or whatever apples and oranges) comment is appropriate.

However, it does make sense to compare Montage to Motif XF and just look at the amount of expansion "flash" memory provided.

... switching gears:

If I'm playing live, I want to be able to start a backing track with a press of a single button or key. And the backing track should be best synchronized with a MIDI click (or MIDI clock). For me, it is not a good way to manually navigate to a folder in the USB-Stick and then search for the right wave-file before starting it each time. And can you explain to me how to synchronize a wave-file played from USB with a click (without using a stereo wave-file with the backing track panned left and the audio-click panned right?

There's no great mechanism to "on the fly" load up audio. If that's a goal - you need to employ an external sampler or some other external device that does a better job of this. However, the Montage/MODX way would be to load up your backing track as a drum key ahead of time. There's not a synchronization mechanism in terms of adjusting things around the audio file automatically or adjusting the audio playback automatically.

What you would do to sync things is make sure your audio is a specific tempo (not a "between" tempo) and that the start of the audio file happens on the "downbeat" without delay or "junk" at the start. This way you can trigger the audio and an ARP at the same time and have them in sync.

The general theme here is preparation before performance.