The Motif features the ability to edit the arpeggio data note-by-note. When it starts, what note value (pitch) the note is, how long it plays (gate time), and each individual note's velocity. You have options to set all notes to the same velocity - different options to edit on-keyboard the arpeggio.

The Montage does not have this sequencing feature. Therefore, "advanced editing" such as above must be done on a computer. On Montage, using the on-board features (and no computer) limits you to recording notes that you play. Even with Motif's sequencer - this is how I did arpeggio entry pre-Montage. I set the tempo to be really slow so I could be precise with 32nd notes - set the metronome to count off 8th notes - and would play the arpeggio and record it real-time without fussing with the on-board sequencer (or external computer).

If you are OK with doing arpeggios "the new way" - meaning using the computer and free software bundled with Montage (or any other software, your choice) - then Montage might be better considering the strengths beyond how arpeggios can be edited (or not) using the in-keyboard functions.

Yamaha did target electronic music at least with their demos on the Montage. So there are new sounds, arpeggios (built in), etc which target this genre.

Also, "Motion Control" is a broad category of new features which act as a type of extended arpeggio function beyond what the Motif can do. The "motion control" can target all kinds of parameters to help shape the sound - even combined with traditional arpeggios.

Aside from the editing limitation, Montage and Motif share common playback features for arpeggios. Therefore, once you get the arpeggio entered in to either (using whatever methods are available to you) - neither is better at playing back arpeggios. So I see parity in the arpeggio department when ignoring arpeggio creation.

The Montage tends to just sound better due to board layout and component placement improvements. There's a marketing term for this: PAC (Pure Analog Circuit) which helps contribute to the "warmth", "clarity", etc ... of the keyboard.

Some incompatibility aside with certain waveforms (which are being worked possibly on the Montage side - but more often at this point - on the side of the sound library 3rd party providers) the Montage can load Motif sound libraries - so you get compatibility at the voice-level with Motif sounds that you can purchase.

If sampling using hardware isn't your thing - then the missing sampler function will not be missed on the Montage vs. the Motif. Sampling with Montage needs to be done off-line (meaning not on the Montage - using a computer or other hardware sampler) then converted over to Yamaha format using 3rd party tools.

The room for samples is much greater in the Montage - so piano sounds - an example of an instrument that can use a lot of space for samples - can take up more space in the Montage vs. more limited Motif (ignoring flash expansion).

Hi Eklad . it is not really about wat music styles you wish to go play ?? , the Montage aswell the yamaha motif xs-xf can handle all styles of music . it depence more on wat you really want to go ude one of these 2 amazing multi funcional synths?? i have both boards to big diference between the motif and montage is more the built in multi track recording sequencer song and pattern mode options on the motif xs xf that offer a amazing options to can do select any voice mode sound presets
or a 4 parts multi track instruments or and arpeggio's than can run loop record at the same time plus can change edit mix - remix overdubb in real time,directly from performance mode to aswell song mode and the awesome multi track and multi sections abcdefgghijk on each single recording step by step pattern mode functions and stil have 12 instruments recording trackm left to built up you music project,then again you can mix all together and create a complete multi track instruments music song project and even can make a final mastering audio wave file all without need to hook up on a Pc Daw system , in my opinion sure for EDM music productions this extra song & pattern mode is a very handy option on the motif xs- xf. things about sounds - quality - arpeggio's - mix and effects options the yamaha motif xs xf, does not really opposite. the Yamaha Montage. the montage ok can also record
even 8 multi track performance drums arpeggio's or sounds presets at the same time but you need to set up first all effects setting before you go use and start record with th on board yamaha montage performance audio recorder, that creates a single file track file audio wave format file !!, with the Montage in case you want to record like 16 instruments tracks like pattern loops you can record a Midi file to go work on with to edet mix master to hook up on a PC Daw system so my advice would be start first with a used second hands Yamaha Motif xs xf to safe a lot of money and it work more easy to record qiuck and asy real time recording i will link 2 electronic dabce trance multi track recording project - both created mix edit mastered without a Pc Daw system would like to hear some comments - reply from others on this great forum if you can hear wat demo mix is full made on the Yamaha Motif xs ?? and wat demo mix is full made on the Yamaha Montage ?? to could compare these 2 super mega monster synhs 😉 😮 🙂

EDM demo recording Mix -1- >> >>
http://jmp.sh/v/WLbBQGxCgFrIM3KFoCN7

EDM demo recording Mix -2- >> >>
http://jmp.sh/v/8Z3jBbtcGwPSWNV1o7vC

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Thank you for your answers, they cleared up quite a bit. From what I understand the buttom line is that with the Montage to get all features possible you need to work with a computer, which both 2 salesman at the store told me, and it sounded like a downside at first. But I understand the logic in it now. I have a computer and I know how to work with it well, and probably mastering the works of both keyboard and computer together lead to the best results. So I will buy the Montage soon, and hope for the best 🙂

Computer Use: More or Less?

This is really interesting because Akai seems to be moving in the direction of "Stand Alone"....using the computer not to "compose" but to "download"!

Softsynth fans have been slowly dating the new hardware offerings...

The analog and modular synth world seems to be trending upward. The expanded workstation (sequencer/sampler/computer access) seemed to always be a safe bet (either way).

So which is trending in Yamaha's world More Computer and Less?

It may be interesting to predict future trends - and apologies if I'm missing something and being overly dismissive. But as a consumer - you look at the product offerings and the strengths/features in a relative manner and pick what fits your use. Different product lines and companies will have different takes on what is offered and this will either match or not match what you want. The current state of Montage has been outlined fairly well.

On the other hand, it's also fair for those who own "stock" in the product (meaning they paid for one or more) to provide some feedback to help future dev.

Not an EDM expert.... but a synth fan for a long time.

For me, having the FM-X on board is a no brainer, yeah I would have taken both the sequencer, patterns and FM-X (FM-X need to have, Sequencer / patterns nice to have). The interface to the DAW is sweet and you can pretty much do anything once you get your audio and midi to the DAW, I am not missing the patterns on the Montage.

My guess is that FM-X sounds and tweaking them Live with the factory arps assigned to the scenes is the sweet spot of this board for EDM.

Regarding Arps...There are so many quality arps on board, with the ability to tweak via sync/swing/etc... that I would think it would be more productive playing and exploring what they provide... b4, trying to roll your own. The Mega Arps and Voices are very very well done and those are on both boards I believe.

FM-X and its motion controls are only on the Montage and to me is the differentiating factor.... I would take a listen to some of the EDM and FM-X sound packs out there to get a sense of the added sonic palette of FM-X. I am hearing some old school, and very current sounds being engineered... all sounding very high quality to my ears. The FM and wave sounds work so well together.... and FM-X is a whole new world for me.

There is a bit of a learning curve on FM-X...., but for me the sounds are crazy flexible...., my sense is that you could create almost any type of current synth sound. And grabbing a Sound Pack that is close to the "style" you are looking for that leverages FM-X engine would be the way to go, in my opinion.

I am loving my Montage, so take this all with a grain of salt 🙂

“Trends” are important from a historical view, not clear on how it impacts your personal need.
And I’m not sure one Keyboard is enough to predict or wax prophetic with shifts in direction.

Certainly, the “trend” with MONTAGE was to reduce redundancy for those already using the computer as their primary recording device. If you still are one who doesn’t, I cannot imagine it comes as much of a shock when you are told things like the vast majority of users Record to a computer DAW (unless you have been in your cave without contact with the outside world). And those who don’t Record at all - well they couldnt care less about the Sequencer.

How much more powerful is MONTAGE without burdening the System by building it around a multitrack MIDI Sequencer like Motif and MO series? The answer seems to be: quite bit more powerful... particularly from the point of view of basic sound making capability,

Whether or not the MONTAGE has more connectivity with the computer or less than its predecessor is a question that should be addressed... it does not connect in as many ways, but then again, based on our research some of the ways XF connected proved more trouble than they were worth. And “trends” moved away from them...

Example, Motif XF connected to computer via USB for MIDI, if you wanted an audio interface it was optional (you needed to purchase a FW16E expansion board which gave you a 16-in/6-out FW Audio Interface) - your computer had to be FW compatible - often that meant purchasing an option there as well... On the XF you had two-way Ethernet connectivity with the ability to log the keyboard onto the internet with the potential capability in XF to download items directly to the keyboard and communicate between systems located miles apart. This went largely untapped as a resource as you needed to be a true computer geek to keep up with this connectivity as the Mac played “moving target” with the SMB protocol (Windows applet) that allowed this to work. Many couldn’t get passed their own computer system’s Firewall. Being able to log onto a friend’s computer on the opposite coast was one very underutilized connectivity item... (way cool but perhaps way too soon, most likely)...

So some of the computer connectivity experiments did not pan out for musicians and were dropped... we still get requests for two-way communication between memory of the Synth and the computer...but frankly, until the computer OS makers want to work with musicians this is not really likely.

MONTAGE CONNECT does let you access your MONTAGE SONG FOLDER from your computer... you can literally drag and drop a Song from the MONTAGE to your DAW via the USB connection. But although we musicians, like to think we are savvy computer users, most are not... we tend to struggle as a group with basic connectivity issues (I offer this and any other synth forum as proof of this Point).

Everyone purchasing a MONTAGE gets a 32-in/6-out Audio Interface built-in (nothing extra to buy, nothing to add). This unprecedented audio bus system places the most integration with the computer where most of the current target customer want it... in recording high quality audio to a computer DAW with the most flexibility and processing available.

This audio busing system plays perfectly into how MONTAGE works, as it addresses multiple Parts simultaneously... so as many are discovering, editing on MONTAGE is often not about Control Change message on MIDI Tracks (as was the trend up until recently) so much as editing a MONTAGE musical performance is about creatively editing the interactions between the sounds your are controlling. Instead of working with cc007 messages to fade out one sound and/or fade in another, you might be doing just that with a MONTAGE gesture that is a single stream of data.

Some things are different now. When a MONTAGE sound involves Side Chaining, or morphing, or the Envelope Follower you are or you need to document the audio output of one Part interacting and influencing the audio output of another... MIDI...? Well, trending is less MIDI event editing, and way more Synth editing... that’s a trend that MONTAGE is promoting. It’s a synthesizer!

You are NOT always performing single instrument sounds on MONTAGE. And how it deals with this is obviously something new to many folks.

The MOTIF and MOX series had sophisticated VST EDITORS that allowed both traditional editing of Voices and Multi-Timbral setups, giving the user a way to capture their synth setup and bundle that setup data with the DAW. This was ideal for those using a VST3 compatible DAW. This was great for Cubase users and those programs that slowly (like sloth playing ‘Charades’ on the Geico commercial) adopted VST3 ( some never did)

The MONTAGE has a VST and AU compatibility, for those stubborn programs that will never offer VST3... so can use this CONNECT utility to backup your MONTAGE Setup, and if you are Cubase User you can File your data conveniently in your own Folder/Category ranking system as a part of the Media Bay/Sound Browser Function. While it is not an Editor at all, it does allow you to backup your MONTAGE with single Performance files that can be easily bundled with the DAW Project file.

Whether you as an individual land *with* the trends may be of some interest to some body, but mostly... we care about just what we as individuals want to do. If everyone is moving to computer and you hate computers, there is no problem unless you refuse to recognize that it might be you who is out of step. Quickly, however, if you ask around yourself, these computers have been gaining ground every year starting back in the early 1980’s... those alert and awake during this time have seen this trend a comin’. It cannot be a surprise to anyone but Rip van Winkle (a mythological American folk hero who slept, oblivious to changing trends for 20years and woke up badly out of step).

MONTAGE is trending because synthesis is trending!

I’m a computer geek. I got all of the connectivity that the Motif XF was capable of to work, but It was often a royal pain in the rear end,

A musician friend of mine often asked me how any musician who wasn’t a computer geek like me could be expected to do these things. I had no answer for him.

Things are a lot easier with the Montage.

Interesting discussion....

It seems the above statement "Things are a lot easier with the Montage." is probably the real simplified selling point.

Computer directed or Not!

Cheers,

My only disappointment with the Montage is the inability to play Midi files as easily as they come from a computer source. You have to create a unique performance for every variation found in each Midi file. I really don’t mind not being able to record on the Montage. When I go out to play a gig, I want to have my PA and keyboard. A lot less to go wrong, like Microsoft is doing an update or your virus software is doing an update or scan, etc.

Peter wrote:

My only disappointment with the Montage is the inability to play Midi files as easily as they come from a computer source. You have to create a unique performance for every variation found in each Midi file. I really don’t mind not being able to record on the Montage. When I go out to play a gig, I want to have my PA and keyboard. A lot less to go wrong, like Microsoft is doing an update or your virus software is doing an update or scan, etc.

Peter,
If that is your only disappointment then you’ll be happy to read this. The MONTAGE has a folder found in [UTILITY] > “Contents” > “Data Utility” called the SONG Folder. Take all your MIDI files with you to the gig - if you’ve created your MIDI Tracks with your favorite DAW, export a version as a Standard MIDI File (.mid) - once loaded to your MONTAGE they will remain in your MONTAGE until you initialize the instrument’s User memory or you Delete them. They simply remain in memory until you don’t want them. These are independent of your .X7U file so they remain even when you Load other banks

The PLAY/REC function is labeled that because it can be used to playback MIDI files as easily as when they were in your computer.

Each SONG in your MONTAGE “SONG” folder can be *associated* (linked) with a MONTAGE Performance so that when you load it, the sounds you used are automatically recalled. You literally select the Song and immediately your Performance is recalled.

After NAMM we’ve planned an article that will go over exactly how you can take your tracks to the gig and leave the computer home... you can configure your files so that you have everything you need, ready to go - including your selection of lead sounds. This is a very important part of the design concept. We’ll probably use Cubase but almost any DAW can be used to prepare the data for MONTAGE - there are some cool tips and tricks especially for this purpose.

NAMM is this week, so give us a few days to recover and we’ll get that article posted.

I wish it were that easy. I just did a test to see if anything changed and they didn’t. Current OS is 1.6.1. I loaded a type zero midi file from my jump drive. Hit play and it automatically changed tempo and performance to something other than what it was supposed to be. I then set the performance and tempo to what it should be and did a save song & perf. I then reloaded the song & perf from the Montage and hit play and guess what, it did its original thing. Also note, I have bank and program change turned off as my standard system setting, so in any case it should not have changed anything. Correct? The way I have my settings, the only way I can play a midi file consistently is by using my Bluetooth midi adapter and using my iPad, play midi files where i’m Only using the voices/performances in the Montage where I must 1st choose the performance.

I’m hoping what’s coming will make it like it should be.

Thanks again for your insight.

I just did a test to see if anything changed and they didn’t. Current OS is 1.6.1. I loaded a type zero midi file from my jump drive. Hit play and it automatically changed tempo and performance to something other than what it was supposed to be.

The steps would be:
Load the .mid, that much you have already done.
This will place the data in your MONTAGE’s SONG Folder
Press [UTILITY] > touch “Contents” > “Data Utility” > Touch the SONG Folder you should see the title of all the .mid Files you’ve loaded to this point. They remain in that folder until you delete them or initialize your MONTAGE.
Your file contains no MONTAGE specific info. To expect it to “know” which of the hundreds of potential Performances to recall, will require your help.

We don’t know if YOU prepared the .mid File... or it is from a third party. But if you created the .mid with Cubase for example, you should have a named MONTAGE Performance that you used to create the data. I highly recommend that you edit the file once you have prepared the MONTAGE Performance. Remove all GM Reset and Bank Select/Program changes from the front of the File. This way you don’t have to leave your MONTAGE “crippled” (with Bank Select and PC = Off), you may need that function, why let you MIDI file force you to such a drastic limitation?

If you don’t have a Performance, you’ll need to create a Performance, Name it, and then, Link the Song&Perf. You can also set the Tempo, and STORE that with this operation. The Bank Selection and Program Changes are unnecessary after you’ve created your Performance, it will contain all your initial settings stored.

Then anytime you want to play the song, you touch “Play/Rec” to view the playback sequencer.
Touch the title bar, it will ask you to recall “Song&Perf”... you’ll see LOAD, It takes you to your Song&Perf list
In about 1 second you can hit Play and your song will play the MONTAGE sounds you selected.

I finally have the answer as to why it's been such a problem with MIDI files. The answer is "Yamaha changed the MIDI standard for program changes". That is, instead of a program change changing a voice on a channel, it now changes a performance. Best example I can give is what happens when a channel contains multiple voice changes. This is done, I believe, to compensate for the limit of 16 channels. A trumpet part may have mute changes, but it's still the trumpet part. So this part may start with a mute applied and later the mute is removed, thereby maintaining one channel for the trumpet part. What I had to do, and I'm still not finished, is duplicate a track thereby requiring another channel and cutting appropriate sections while adding parts to the performance specifically for this song, which is Toto's Girl Goodbye. I may run out of channels 'til completed. I so look forward to the new OS! So now you know why I had to cripple my Montage, although, it doesn't prevent it when played from within. It does work like you said, but still more work than it's worth. As a retired computer specialist for more than 40 years, I believe they can fix this and may have in the new OS. Thanks for you help. I know that with great features there is a great learning curve. I don't know how folks who are not computer knowledgeable can figure this stuff out.