Q1:

For speaker routing, here I use the A/D input to route-in my other gear. Most of the time, I have the Yamaha MO6's L output routed in (L/Mono) although I could do stereo - I don't need that for what I use the MO6 for (transferring my sounds from the old board, programming something that sounds similar in the Montage).

This allows for me to use my better reference speakers (Yamaha HS series) at all times and the Yamaha is the mixer.

Using your Tyros as the mixer should afford you the same goal of using your better speakers for both boards without having to purchase an external mixer.

The rationale for using an external mixer would be if you have more than two boards and are a purist about the signal chain and losses by passing through intermediate equipment. Also, if you want full level and EQ control for all sources. At any rate - this does not apply in your situation.

MIDI is not involved in the speaker/mixer solution to use the same speakers for both boards - just a pair of patch cables (unbalanced 1/4 inch). Tyros 3 does not support balanced inputs according to the manual.

Note: the manual also states to turn on the Montage 1st, then the Tyros. And when powering down, turn off the Tyros first then the Montage. This is the recommendation when using external sound inputs likely to manage the possible disruption to your speakers.

Q2: Montage isn't going to deal with Tyros files. If you want a setup to do something on your Tyros, you'll have to setup for the MIDI control you want and [STORE] a performance to achieve what you want. There's setup on both sides that needs to be done (some on the Tyros, some on the Montage). You can bank switch to something that is saved on the Tyros via MIDI. Although theoretically possible (yet not possible because this is NOT how Montage works) - the Tyros may have SysEx control to do some "proprietary" things. However, the Montage cannot be setup as a general-purpose SysEx sender although this would be a nice feature for some applications (press a keyboard key to change scenes, or send more advanced setup/parameters to connected MIDI equipment).

Your options are fairly wide-open even using "standard" MIDI controls and the capabilities of the Montage. I'm not aware as much of what the Tyros can do - but I would think using either as the master will be fine.

Q3: You can setup any range of the Montage to play its own sounds - or not. You can have it (a given range) control external MIDI devices or not. Both or neither. So there is flexibility there. The response to MIDI note-on messages will be handled by the connected slave hardware (Tyros) so if you have a style setup to play when that note is struck - that's what it will do.

Since you can note shift - I do not think there is a need to have a 1:1 mapping in terms of Montage key location and the resulting MIDI note value (low notes can generate high notes, high notes low, or "F" notes generate "C#". I haven't tested this yet (with MIDI targets) - but I don't imagine there is not this flexibility.

Hello Jason - thanks! So the idea is feasible, and should work. That's the really BIG issue resolved! And the Montage can indeed 'play' the Tyros styles - less important but useful. After that I'm hanging onto your coat-tails ... the different extensions on Montage and Tyros sounds means that although the sounds can be played as a mix, they cannot be saved as a mix by either the Tyros or the Montage? Have I got that right? Is there a reason for that? I would have thought that all Yamaha sounds should be compatible with each other no matter which instrument they're produced on, so that any sound could be transferred to any instrument at will. Or is that too simplistic? Massive marketing tool, I'd have thought. But not so. OK, back to the real world - if I come across a particular mixed combination that I like enough, I can simply write down the ingredients, like making a cake.

I think the range on the Montage (76 keys) can play on the Tyros (61 keys) because of the Octave up/down facility, as you infer. Hope so, bit of a drag if it doesn't!

I'll start on a design to accommodate the Tyros, Montage and computer while all remaining usable. I'm away for a few days from tomorrow, so I'll have something to think about in the wee sma' hours ... thanks again, stay well ..

I guess I should weigh in your question just so you have some perspective about what you are attempting.

So Question 1 is - does this sound feasible? I am unwilling to spend quite large sums on better speakers if it will work better than my Alesis M1s.

You can basically, MIDI any two products together, and that's pretty much a fact. What you actually gain will depend on your expectations being realistic. I can tell some of what you are expecting, frankly, will never happen. But these are both powerful technologies and you will undoubtedly discover somethings that are extremely useful.

If you do not currently consider yourself a MIDI expert, if you go down this road, you will become one in the process!!! And you will learn a few things beyond that along the way. Better speakers, absolutely. The ones you describe are studio monitors. Studio Monitors have an effective range of 4-5 feet maximum, beyond that you can still hear them, but they are optimized for the engineer to be seated in an equilateral triangle with the two speakers - the so called "sweet spot".

This is true of most small format studio monitors (regardless of brand). Studio monitors with 5" woofer, will need a sub-woofer to fully reproduce your keyboards, once you get to 8" studio monitors, the studio monitors can hold their own without a sub-woofer - it becomes a preference at that point. But most Studio Monitors are sold individually because you can build "surround systems"... If your goal is to play at home Studio Monitors are fine.

If your goal is to perform for an audience, Studio Monitors are not designed for that purpose. Then you graduate to sound reinforcement boxes. Today's powered speakers can be incredibly high fidelity boxes. These boxes are designed for "long throw" and are appropriate for distances. They start at 8" and go up to 15" (8", 10", 12" and 15")

You need to decide what your application is and buy the appropriate type of speaker for the task.

Question 2 - is there any way that any resulting mixed Montage/Tyros sounds can be stored on the Montage as Live Sets? Not sure how the 'extensions' work here - Tyros is .UVN and the Montage is either .X7U or .X7L.

The sounds of the Tyros will always be Tyros, the sound of Montage will always be Montage. The files of one have nothing whatever to do with the other. Please purge that thought from your head completely.

Try this concept: the Montage can play on eight MIDI channels at once. You can control either internal or external sounds, a mix of both, just internal, or just external. But this is through MIDI... again, the Montage sounds are Montage, the external sounds belong to the external device. That said, you can place a Bank Select and Program Change command in your Montage Performance Part, that "tells" the external device what sound to recall. So that every time you recall a particular Montage Performance, the Tyros recalls a particular sound.

So to the listener, it might not immediately be clear which is doing what. Example: When you recall a particular Performance in Montage that is Piano, you might have the external device recall a particular string sound. Once you store this Performance with the appropriate Bank Select and Program Change for the external device - this pairing will always be recalled. Make sense?

No need to mix .UVN and .X7L data to do this. The "master" keyboard controls (instructs) the slave keyboard, and tells it what to recall.

Question 3 - presumably the lower split on the Montage, married to the lower split on the Tyros, will 'play' the Tyros accompaniment (Style) as well as whatever is assigned to the Montage.

Here is where you will either revel in the complexity or withdraw from the whole idea.

Here's why I say this: the Tyros is designed to be a standalone band. Attempting to pair it with an external controller is something that is not even covered in any documentation. Let's briefly say, the Tryos transmits on all sixteen MIDI channels just doing its normal thing.
You play 3 Right hand sounds and a Left hand sound (parts 1-4), you have those 4 Multi Pads (part 5-8), then you have the accompaniment "band" with percussion, drums, bass, chordal instrument, pads, riffs, etc...(parts 9-16).

Playing a Tryos through MIDI can certainly be done (no problem), but sitting actually at a Tyros has huge advantages if you are performing on Tyros.
Just like sitting at the Montage has huge advantages over attempting to control it remotely.

Can you? well, sure. I highly recommend you think through what you really want to accomplish. Then consult your documentation (manuals). Determine what advantage you gain. Because frankly, and I'm talking honestly here: it sounds like you've got about $10,000 worth of modern cutting edge keyboard technology and you are very curious to see what linking them will do.

Fine! Who wouldn't be curious? As long as you go into this with the realization that the Tyros was designed to be a "do it all" keyboard, and do it all all by itself, you'll be fine.

Set a goal, see if you get what you expect.
I also recommend you contact an application specialist at your regional Yamaha customer support desk, get to know them on a first name basis, because undoubtedly, if you go down that rabbit hole, you will need a friend. 🙂

There is no manual written for this type of thing and you will discover there are more ways to approach things than initially meets the eye. I can tell from your statement about the file types, that you have much to grasp about what will and will not work. And that's fine, as long as your expectations don't exceed feasibility (the fact that you asked is it feasible hints you know it's a rather off the normal track idea!)

I'm not trying to discourage you, just making sure you go into this with your eyes wide open. (Take notes)!
We can certainly help you here on the Montage side of things.

Have fun!

Hello Bad Mister - thanks for weighing in! You've put your finger pretty accurately on where I am. I'm not any kind of musician, I just like messing with (musical!) sound. Music per se is a bonus, but not an essential other than suggesting the sort of sound it needs to be played with. I also like experiment and improvisation. 99% of the time I fail. But now and then, something goes click! Keeps me trying.

Being fortunate enough to have both a Montage and a Tyros, and being dissatisfied with my entry-level speakers, it was inevitable that I should consider putting the two together primarily to get a better sound. But the idea has such massive possibilities (given that the 'better sound' works!) I am compelled to put it into practice. I hear all your cautions, and quite understand them ... it would be an additional reward if I became more proficient at grasping concepts and consequences as I went along! You have already suggested a way of 'saving' mixed sounds through 'Bank select' and 'Program change' to always achieve the same result, which is better than my writing down the recipe - but would that mean that selecting that particular sound on the Montage would automatically select the Tyros sound? Or is there a way of de-coupling them so that I can try the same Montage sound with different Tyros sounds? That's essentially how I work (if you can call it 'work'!). I take a sound, and couple it with another, and then another and so on (varying parameters in each) until something shows promise, then I save that one, and continue. It is very time-consuming, but logical (I must have Vulcan blood somewhere along the line). Then take the promising ones, and add a third and start all over again. Add in the Tyros, and the potential becomes limitless - may I assume, at this point, that the resulting sound can be recorded on the Tyros as all of it is going through the Tyros?

I will keep my expectations at bay - the old adage, hope for the best but prepare for the worst, is ever applicable. No good dreaming up as yet theoretical scenarios. Unfortunately I don't have a Yamaha dealer within range to button-hole (I live in very rural France), so I'll be largely on my own trying absorb what's going on. So, like Srnie, 'I'll be back!' - but hopefully with interesting questions ...

Oh, mine is purely 100% a home set-up. No way would I attempt anything public! I used to have a decent sized studio, with 12" speakers 20' away - those were the days! Now I'm in the 'golden triangle' with 4' sides ... still OK if I can get the elements right!

You have already suggested a way of 'saving' mixed sounds through 'Bank select' and 'Program change' to always achieve the same result, which is better than my writing down the recipe - but would that mean that selecting that particular sound on the Montage would automatically select the Tyros sound? Or is there a way of de-coupling them so that I can try the same Montage sound with different Tyros sounds? That's essentially how I work (if you can call it 'work'!).

As you learn how to use the Zone Master feature on the Montage, and how to use it to select sounds via Bank Select (MSB/LSB) and Program Change on the Tyros, you will be able to establish exactly that workflow. By activating the "MIDI SEND" parameter you can literally scroll through the sounds in the Tyros by incrementing the value on the Montage's "Zone Settings", so trying out combinations is elegant and easy. When you get a combination you like press [STORE] after naming your combination something that will remind you what you've created

You will need to gain expertise in customizing sounds (something that hopefully will develop as your experiment) - otherwise you will be leaving everything up to chance... which can be an alright workflow but not necessarily an efficient method. The main thing is to have fun!

When you go to audition speakers (Studio Monitors) please don't make the rookie mistake of judging volume. Try matching the volume of whatever speakers you are listening to when making your comparisons- (that why volume is on a variable control: use it) - listen for clarity throughout the entire frequency range. Don't just buy the loudest, that's the rookie mistake many people make; often the best speakers eat power for breakfast... Meaning you have to feed them to get their best result. And that okay, like the really good race car engines need the highest grade fuel to perform at max, but when you give them what they need that engines "performs" spectacularly.

Hello Bad Mister, and thank you for taking the time to address my conjecturing so thoughtfully. You have made me keener than I was to start with! My tiny music room (literally a 2.4 metre cube) is about to be pulled apart and re-hashed to accommodate the Tyros in an accessible place, but it'll have to wait until next week as I'm away for a few days. Your words on speakers are also heeded, although initially I am ditching the Alesis M1s in favour of Sennheiser headphones with the on/off option of a pair of Sony hi-fi speakers that actually give better definition than the M1s. Alas, nowhere I can compare speakers on a useful scale - I have to rely on reviews and recommendations, but so much depends on the environment they have to work in - I'll cross that bridge when I come to it - let's get the Tyrotage up and running ... stay well ...

Hello - I'm back! Pulled my set-up apart on Monday afternoon, and have been rolling about on the floor wrestling with yards of various kinds of cabling ever since. New layout - the Tyros is now installed in place of the Korg M3, with the Montage moved on a new desk at right angles to it, with the computer monitor in the angle between them. Works well, I can reach everything and play either with a simple swivel of my chair. All parts have been tested and everything works - the Montage drives the Tyros fine, but the combined output is a bit much for the amplifier, with the indicators in the red and distinct break-up of the sound. Must keep the volume down. So far, the Tyros won't drive the Montage, but there are a few little system foibles to be ironed out.

One problem is that the master volume on the Tyros controls both the Tyros and the Montage because of the way the 'Aux: Ins' are wired up on the Tyros. I can play the Tyros alone either by turning down the volume on the Montage, or the Aux: in volume on the Tyros - but not the other way around. Not got to grips with that yet. So the Great Experiment is up and running - the fun starts tomorrow!

Press the balance button once and use faders or arrows to set the Tyros level and press balance twice to set the aux in level for Montage control. You can keep the Montage level set at one volume by doing this.

Tyros manual of 61 details this.

Thanks Jason! Still messing about - I've spent the day re-instating the Korg M3, rigged it up with a two-way audio switch to play either the Korg or the Montage. Bit cramped in there now, but usable. Switched the Montage (and therefore the Korg) to the Sony speakers, as the Tyros was getting overloaded. Not as clear as the Tyros speakers, so I'm being rail-roaded down the new Yamaha HS7 route ...

I'm not sure what you mean by the Tyros being overloaded. Too many cables? Too hard to control? Aux-In (pre mixer) Level set too high so the output sounded distorted?

There may be different solutions to manage any of these.

My understanding of why you want to use the Tyros as the master MIXER (not master keyboard control) is because you see it having the best sound quality in terms of connected speakers. So I believe I understand your rationale for wanting to setup the audio routing like you are attempting. However, I'm not sure your vision of the limits of routing are understood - although a bit difficult to understand without more information.

Therefore, I'll ask a question - is there any reason why you cannot use the speakers connected to the Tyros (the better speakers) as the main speakers and connect them to the Montage's outputs (instead of Tyros)? Then, instead of routing everything into the Tyros - route the Tyros and M3 into the Montage.

I believe you can generally get what you want either way - but the "rub" of doing it like you are is that you also explained (or at least I think you did) that you want the Montage as the master keyboard in terms of MIDI control. So if you are primarily at the controls of one keyboard for playing - it would seem to make more sense to have that same keyboard control the audio levels to avoid, as much as possible, jumping keyboards.

I do know your purpose is studio - not live performance - so I also understand there is a higher tolerance for jumping around and setting things up, then playing, then going to a different set of keyboard to adjust outputs/etc - then go back to the MIDI master and play the result. But still, at some point the lack of central control may wear thin.

Like I said, I could be misunderstanding why the "Tyros speakers" have to be connected to the Tyros and not the Montage. Maybe they're just tuned to the outputs of the Tyros amplifier and do not sound as good connected to other devices? Maybe because the subwoofer doesn't integrate well?

I'm not up on my Tyros first-hand, so just double-checking.

Hi Rod
I often route my Montage through the Tyros 5 speakers and it sounds good, I've also routed the Montage through the Tyros audio-in, the balance being set as Jason mentioned.
Peter

Hello Jason and Peter - I'm still experimenting ... Jason, the Tyros 3 has a dedicated set of amplifier/sub-woofer and L/R speakers (known as MS202) that can only be accessed via the Aux: Ins on the Tyros, which also has a dedicated volume control as well as an input level control. I think you are right though - I had the input level control set too high, so that the overall mixed sound (Tyros + Montage) was breaking up while the Tyros alone was fine (it would be, of course!). A simple possibility that I overlooked! I will re-arrange things today as the Sony speakers still give a variable result - 'C' and 'F' generally come out louder (particularly 'C3' and 'F3'), and the lower registers tend to be muffled.

The Montage and the Tyros are at right-angles to each other, so switching from playing one to the other is a single swivel of my chair. Mine is purely a studio set-up, yes. The Korg is a standalone, but played through the Sony speakers (I'll change that today) via a two way audio switch with the Montage - I can play one or the other, but not both, which is fine for my purposes. The switch output goes through a 4 channel mixer to an amplifier (currently the Sony, but I'll change that to the 'Aux: Ins' on the Tyros). The computer audio output also goes to the mixer.

The Montage and Tyros are midi'ed together, with the Montage as the master, yes. The purpose of this is to gain access to the many hundreds of sounds I have already created on the Tyros (called registrations), many of which are dedicated to particular songs or style of song, since they cannot be transferred to the Montage. Usefully, my mixer also has an output to a recorder as well as an amplifier, so I can look into the possibility of recording Montage/Tyros mixes - not sure yet for what purpose other than listening! The potential of this linking defies imagination - if the various elements can be made to work together! As Bad Mister cogently pointed out, this could be a very steep learning curve! Or a one-way ticket to Despondency!

Peter, I'm pleased you agree about the sound quality! Have you tried, or do you intend to try, midi'ing the two together? I can see a whole bunch of problems, but also a great deal of interest, not to mention simple fun! Bafflement. Bewilderment. Frustration. Eureka! too ... I'm unsure what you mean by routing through the Tyros speakers ... and then through the Tyros aux: in: ... surely the two are the same? How do you route through the Tyros speakers without going through the aux: in?

My earlier page number reference to the manual was incorrect.

For the Tyros 3, owners manual - page 89 shows AUX IN has a trim min/max dial which can adjust the input sensitivity and can be part of what is used to adjust the gain on the input signal. Certainly, adjusting the output volume on the connected devices can do this too.

According to the manual, however, the primary purpose of AUX IN is for an effects processing loop and the LINE IN / MIC IN is shown connected to an external synth. LINE/MIC IN also has a trim knob which can be set to adjust the input gain.

The benefit of using LINE IN is that this allows recording the external sound to hard disk on the Tyros.

Page 55 of the owners manual shows the balance button and that pressing once allows for adjusting the LINE IN / MIC IN level (labeled "MIC")

Pressing balance twice, you can adjust the level of the KBD (which is the only new setting available pressing balance twice). Because I imagine Hard Drive Recorder (HDR) volume, also available when pressed twice, is not interesting.

Tyros speakers:

Each corner of the Tyros 3 has 1/4 inch MONO speaker output jacks so at least those could be moved to the Montage outputs.

The subwoofer has that 8-pin proprietary jack which I do not know what its for since I do not see a pinout of the 8 pins. The labels show the 8-pin is for "R" and the mono RCA is for "L". I'm guessing the subwoofer could also connect to the Montage through an output with a converter from a 1/4 inch to RCA. This is where some more "stuff" is needed to provide a crossover (not sure if the sub has one in it - maybe it does) and the extra output from the MAIN L/R outputs. I'm guessing "phones" could also be used just for the subwoofer - but have to be careful with the level since it is tied directly to the main output and probably best to go a mixer route that can combine setting sub level and crossover functions.

Maybe it's that sub woofer that has the speakers, as a whole, delegated to the Tyros side - although some rerouting options are available with varying degrees of work and/or extra adapters, mixer, etc.

Hello Jason - you're quite right in the nomenclature - I should have said 'Line In' and not 'Aux: In', my apologies. The input level control (next to the inputs) is incredibly sensitive and needs very careful handling - not too easy when over the back and out of sight! Today while checking the jacks were fully seated, I moved it barely a millimetre and spent half an hour checking why the Montage wasn't sounding! I haven't used the 'Balance' function as yet - I had assumed it applied only to internal Tyros sounds. I'm happy with the Tyros speakers remaining on the Tyros as the MIDI works perfectly, and I spend almost as much time on the Tyros as on the Montage! As you have surmised, with my set-up at present, the sound is only coming from where it should when playing the Tyros. It's on my right when playing the Montage, and behind me when playing the Korg! Sort of surround sound - but it's me doing the surrounding ...