I haven't heard of the next Montage-based "MOXF" rumors - I keep trying to spread that rumor hoping Yamaha falls for it and releases one. My guess is still 3 years after Montage release we will see a MOXF-like version of Montage. But its just a guess. Yamaha did release a Tyros arranger replacement called Genos. its more expensive than a Montage at $5500 for a 76 key.

It doesn't sound like you need a Genos top dollar arranger to play parts live in a multi-member band (I play in bands, i don't). Also assume you don't need an onboard sequencer. If not - Montage is a major sonic upgrade with increased play functionality for a typical live player. The one caveat is I don't think Melas has a "Librarian" pc app you use for MOXF (also available for XF). Ive heard you can't rearrange set list in Montage easily - I don't know as I haven't ever had one and tried - check it out. Montage does display the performance names in the set list all on the screen so maybe its easier to bounce around in that workflow. but rearranging or something like inserting a performance between current P5 and P6 ... i've heard that is hard to not happening.

I use Melas to rearrange for each gig too. love its ease of use - i can prep my board for the night's set in 3 minutes. no problems, no issues, done.

I have not heard any musician who had a prior Yamaha board, got a Montage, and did not think Montage is has superior sounds. if that helps.

I went from a MO6 to a Montage 7. A similar switch. I found the extra keys I do not have to mess with the octave switch as much as I did before to "pull up" different ranges of the board. I can fit everything across the 76 keys thus far.

The extra PARTs ("voices") in a performance offer more flexibility. Maybe MOXF was more flexible with effects - but vs. the MO - Montage has nearly no compromises when it comes to applying effects to each PART ("voice"). Previously the effects I applied in voice mode of the MO gave more to work with than when assembling voices into a performance -- now each PART ("voice") has its own set so there's not a difference between what would have been voice mode and performance mode.

It's interesting that a MOXF successor may have slightly more functionality than a Montage if they keep the MOxx series in-tact. Because MOxx had a sequencer and transport controls and now Montage took those out. Motif with a sampler - that's out too - so no longer a bullet for the Motif-ish line vs. MOxx (parity with sampling).

Embedded non-volatile memory is faster on Montage - not sure what MOxx would do if they released a new one. I'd keep it crippled so Montage has some advantage on the waveform manipulation side. But who knows.

I see nothing official or semi-official for a MO-line refresh. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough.

I'm guessing a new MO-line would not have FM-X. I would miss that vs. the Montage - because it can provide a better mousetrap for certain sonic goals.

Motif XF vs. Montage:

Sorry, old thread. I've been searching here for Montage vs. Motif XF comparisons and this thread came up. I don't perform or gig; I just have a small home studio for personal enjoyment. I use my synths primarily to create backing tracks for recording (real) electric guitars. I'm not very astute at synth-programming, so I'm a big fan of ROMplers, and my goal has always been to have one of each: Yamaha, Roland, Korg. I bought a Fantom G in 2008, and just bought a Kronos 2, but I've always wanted a Motif. Here's what I get/what I'm looking for in the three ROMplers.

• Fantom G: 24-track RAM recorder, saws, pads, Roland-signature sounds.
• Kronos 2: Available orchestra libraries which rival VSTs, Korg-signature sounds, combis, Karma, sampling, streaming SSD, able to add second SSD.
• Motif XF: Signature "Motif" sounds, sampling, dual 1GB flash-memory slots.

From what I've read here, it looks like the Motif XF should be adequate for my needs, and actually more appropriate for my applications. I like the fact that it can accept two 1GB flash-memory boards, though they seem to be rather pricey. But, I suppose, I have all the sampling capability I need in my Kronos with its built-in 64GB SSD, and the ability to add a second SSD of even larger capacity. The cool thing I learned here about the Motif XF is the available John Melas editors. However, the main cool thing is the price of used Motif XFs.

Hi, over the years I’ve had a Mox8 and then a motif XF8, I have now changed to a Montage 8, let me say I am loving this synth with its 8 parts and, wow, the super knob. At first I was completely lost as to how scenes and the super knob worked, (but had a lot of fun with the preset performances), after being use to the Motif, but now after 6 Weeks, and over 100 hours I’ve cracked it, being able to have 8 parts playing together and being able to program the superknob to control when those parts are played controlled by the FC7 foot peddle is absolutely awesome. With the new update V2.0 I have imported to my library the Motif XF performances, but I have not used them, as now I know what i’m doing, I have completely reprogrammed all my old Motif songs in to the Montage. As for having no sequencer, I did not really use it on the Motif so I do not miss it as I used my laptop for recording up to 16 tracks, the Montage does however have a recording facility which records the live performance. To me the Montage is exceptional as a live playing synth.

Thanks for your reply, Chris. I use my Fantom G's built-in 24-track digital audio recorder as my main recording system since it's so damned easy to use. I just bought Apple Logic Pro X last week, but haven't even gotten any of my USB connections to work yet. Anyhow, back to my original question: I'm mainly trying to fill out my ROMpler collection and I think the Motif XF will easily satisfy that Yamaha urge. I especially loved the acoustic guitars on the Motif XS when I was auditioning it at the time I bought my Fantom, and have always wanted those in my set-up. I just like that Yamaha "sparkly" sound. I could buy a a Rack XS, but I like having a real keyboard. Anyway, back the Motif XF—I don't need its sequencer since I use the Fantom. I may not need its sampling capability since I have so much storage in the Kronos 2, but it's certainly nice to have that available.

My main concern is that, sure, on paper, the Montage has incredible specs, compared to its older cousin, but often when I compare a new synth to its predecessor, the results are only marginally better. The Fantom G sounds better than the X, but the difference is almost imperceptible. If the signature Motif XF sounds 75% as good as their Montage counterparts, I should be more than happy. I know, in concept the Montage is a different machine, but I'm basically looking for pre-made ROMpler sounds and won't be doing much sound design myself, if any.

Also, the vast majority of my playing will hardware-based and I only plan on using the DAW on special projects. Everything will be played live into the Fantom G recorder (I never record MIDI tracks). My primary use for the DAW will be to host Spectrasonics' amazing Omnisphere app. So, in other words, 90% of my playing and recording will be done in real time on a real keyboard (not a controller through a DAW, with the exception of the Spectrasonics library). That was a long way of saying that any computer-integration improvements on the Montage aren't important to me.

Oh crap. I just realized I misread the title of this thread. I thought it was a Motif XF vs Montage thread (I thought "MOXF" was short for Motif XF!) Sorry!

Motif XF vs MOXF are the two that are nearly identical in terms of sound and function. XF allows you to sample directly but they both use the same architecture, preset waveforms, polyphony, etc. Some claim to hear a difference due to D/A converters, I don’t hear the difference personally.

For the OP that plays Performances with 4 parts - Montage allows 8 at a time. It has scenes to enable easier switching. More polyphony (128 Stereo vs 128 total - not really sure how this plays out if you’re in mono though). Greater ability to map and control parameters. Montage is more if you want pure sound, its a significant step up not a small incremental nuance. It doesn’t have the sequencer or sampler - you’d have to do those off-board. I know a few that switched from XF to Montage - they claim a big sonic improvement. Biggest gripes i’ve heard besides no sequencer is the midi implementation - thats for guys controlling multiple boards at once from a master.

Montage is meant more for the live player, so if the purpose is studio recording - that wasn’t its primary intent but if its just for sound generation its worth the look.

I’m still waiting for Yamaha to announce my MO-Tage :). I have both XF7 and MOXF6 - I use the MOXF6 more than the XF7 for live play, its just easier for gigging and I program around the 61 keys and make it work just fine

Thanks for your reply, David (even though I posted in the wrong thread!). Good to know! I am syncing all my synths from my Fantom G's master-clock via MIDI (though, if I want arpeggiators to work it looks like the synth where I want the arps to work needs to be the master).

My basic deal is that a new Montage costs twice as much as a used Motif XF, and I just spent $3,000 on a refurbed Kronos 88 Platinum last week. Plus, I'm seeing that the Motif's third-party sound libraries are much cheaper than KApro's libraries for the Kronos and Vienna Instruments' AU libraries for Apple Logic Pro X. Plus, the Motif XF's built-in sampling capability, with two add-on 1GB flash-RAM boards, looks like a pretty neat thing to have to be able to accommodate more online sounds.

You may get what you pay for. I've heard the phrase "rivals VSTi" for Korg's string library(ies) while I haven't seen the same "buzz" for Yamaha strings. They're great - and I'm accustomed to certainly the legacy string samples that come from previous Motif/MO products (with extra "lush" of the PAC) - but I haven't been thrilled with the articulation and vibrato choices within Yamaha strings for some time. Certainly for solo fiddle/violin work. I do understand it's a hard nut to crack - but generally other keyboards win blindfold tests for strings.

I'm glad you said two 1GB add-in boards. There are higher GB boards from manufacturers other than Yamaha - but those are extremely limited in usage due to addressing limits and other limits on waveforms within the Motif XF architecture. There is a very narrow window of benefit for using anything other than the maximum from-Yamaha (official) amount of memory. There's another thread covering that discussion if you dig.

Thanks for your reply, Jason! Good to know! Yeah, I think even better than the KApro libraries is the upcoming WavesArt Cinematic Suite for the Kronos—they're the most realistic strings I've ever heard coming from a hardware synth (it's the reason I bought the Kronos!). My Kronos will be doing all the heavy-lifting for orchestral sounds (check out their YouTube demo for the front-seat violin, cello, bass solos and small ensembles in the Cinematic Suite: solo strings). They even have realistic-sounding glissandos!

It would just be nice to load up a Motif XF with a few other third-party libraries like percussion and some other stuff (I've picked out three non-strings libraries on the Motifator site). I did read up about the limitations with having more than 1GB flash-RAM boards in the Motif, but it's a neat feature nonetheless (even though the Kronos' 64GB built-in SSD and optional secondary SSD pretty much pawns that). Since it's the last Motif in the line, I think I just have to have it!

Streaming over SSD is a bit different than embedded - so it's not apples to apples when you're looking at the raw storage size. There are pros and cons to each approach and inherent limitations (different ones) with each approach. Yamaha has generally been able to do more with less through fancy compression. It's not only the compression ratio - but also the amount of loss. Not to mention quality of the source sample. Lots of proprietary stuff in this arena - so quoting raw numbers doesn't always paint the right picture.

I believe both manufacturers have their strengths in different areas. Whatever you do, don't listen to me or anyone else what the strengths and weaknesses are when making your own determination. It's perhaps a starting point for exploration - but the eventual decision should be based on your ears and the "spirit" the instrument invokes when played (intangibles).

I happen to be very biased towards Yamaha having played their keyboards almost exclusively for decades. Your ear gets "tuned" to a sound after a while.

Yeah, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the different memory technologies: Kronos' streaming-SSD vs. Motif's on-board flash-RAM. This is all new to me since the last synths I bought was 10 years ago (other than my recent Kronos purchase). I did an interesting test last night: I played one of my Fantom G's super-saw patches and A-B'd it to a very similar patch on the Kronos. Guess what? They sounded almost EXACTLY the same. Again, I'm not a sound designer, I'm an off-the-shelf-play-a-ROMpler-preset kind of guy. So I think when someone says a Montage sounds "light years" better than a Motif XF, I take it with a grain of salt.

Basically, I fell in love with the Motif ES' sounds way back in 2007 when comparing it to the original Fantom X, so to me, the Motif XF would be a significant upgrade from that. I'm just assuming that if I were able to audition a Montage and A-B it with an XF, it may sound better, but perhaps not an order of magnitude better (at least perhaps not to my ears). Similar predecessor products from other manufacturers don't ever seem to sound that much worse then the newer product.

I'm curious to know what you thought of the WavesArt demo? It blew me away when I heard it. It's from a company I never heard of, but the sound designer is an actual conductor and the demos I think really reflect that.

Not much for the choir stuff (no real application here). I liked the "HQ" violin sample - lots of wood. Not sure I liked the velocity pitch bend stuff since I imagine the range cannot be real-time controlled and I'd want a way to "tell" the violin to bend a half, whole, minor 3rd, 3rd, etc. To a limit but at least a few choices. I like the smooth octave glissando with the pitch wheel or mod wheel - whatever they were using for that. I'm not going to sit through all the demos - but I think there's good stuff in there. Keep in mind I'm a performance keyboardist - so I'm looking at everything from a real-time control perspective and throw out most anything I cannot accomplish on the bandstand (including due to my own chop limitations - maybe not necessarily an issue with a particular library).

Hardly anything blows me away. It either works or doesn't for what I'm trying to accomplish. I am a big fan of the Spectrasonics stuff although I have none of it. The intelligent articulation for nearly every instrument sounds impressive and they pay attention to the same kind of gear I'm drawn to. Yamaha is starting to go somewhat this direction with the randomized drum samples like in GenOS. All of this (Spectrasonics vintage sampled instruments) is on the other side of the world from an orchestra.

I do also play an orchestra instrument - so orchestra is not lost on me (fyi).

... adding: SYMPHONIC Velo 8va STRS

This sounds great - the dynamics - if this is easy to do real-time. But here's the kicker: "Polyphony Limit: 5 notes".

Looks like they use up a lot of "Timbres" to generate this instead of having combined samples - so each "sound" can have its own effects and so forth and have more individual control. However, it eats up a lot of polyphony having so many notes simultaneously playing. As great as it sounds - it doesn't allow for much else going on so this is more for recording a string/symphony track on one pass - then going back and "punching in" other tracks with the "Symphonic Velo 8va STRS" no longer active. Looks geared towards the studio - so perhaps the best of these offerings would not be for my usage.

Thanks for your opinions, Jason—I should've told you to fast-forward through the choir stuff! I was just reading a really old thread I posted on the Korg forums way back in 2007 while I was looking for some old guitar tracks I posted to my MySpace account (remember that?), but I couldn't remember my MySpace username. Anywho, I found this old post where I wrote:

"IMHO, both the Yamaha ES- and XS-series REALLY rock, as far as rompler soundsets go. I had and ES8, but for the life of me, I couldn't figure out how to do anything with it, and finally ended up losing my patience with it (so, I got a Fantom-X instead). I probably should've just kept it. But I'd love to pick up a Motif Rack ES module someday. Or even better, an XS module, should they come out with one."

I can't believe I actually owned an ES and totally forgot that I did! I must've bought it at Guitar Center and returned it after a few days. So I bought a Fantom X8 instead, that summer of 2007. So, of course, just a few months later at NAMM 2008, Roland comes out with the much-improved (operationally) Fantom G8! I was lucky in that I was able to trade my X8 for a new G8, paying only $800 to make up the difference (I happened to meet this Roland B-stock guy that lives in the next city who was able to offer me incredible deals on Roland gear—like 50% off retail!).

Yeah, I just learned about the Spectrasonics' library a few days ago. Wow! I just bought Apple Logic Pro X a few days ago, my very first DAW (I'm all hardware right now), and that's probably the first app I'm going to buy for use with my new DAW. I was pretty impressed with the Omnisphere demo—really amazing stuff!