Even though I wanted Tho to discover this by experiment - now I can't let the last comment's misinformation stand. Unless "Cool Trance" has been revamped - I see it's a single PART AWM2 performance. When you call up the "Cool Trance" performance - the home screen shows only the following two "emblems": "AWM2" in yellow and "SSS" in light-purple. No "FM-X" icon (cyan).

Rod, what you've described would be a combined "AWM2"+"FM-X" performance - which "Cool Trance" is not. Certainly here the 1st part is not FM-X.

"Super Bell" is an example of a combined AWM2+FM-X. In "Super Bell", PARTs 1-4 are AWM2 and PARTs 5-6 are FM-X. In this case, if "Super Bell" was pulled-into a single PART slot by doing a PART search, then the resulting PART would be AWM2 since PART 1 is the "anchor PART" and PART 1 is AWM2.

If some other combined AWM2+FM-X PART had FM-X for PART 1 and AWM2 for the other PARTs (or some mix of FM-X and AWM2 for the other PARTs) - then a PART search and add (as a single PART) would result in FM-X since PART 1 is the "anchor PART" and when adding a PART by the part category search, it will add the anchor PART.

Anchor part is synonymous with saying part 1. Notice PART 1 -always- has the same name as the performance name for every preset performance.

Hello Robin thought I'd try your 'Bonus experiment' starting with Algorithm 1, which is a sine wave. The maximum Coarse setting is 31, and the maximum Fine setting is 99 (I can't get 128). On Operator 1, the pitch gets higher with each increment of Coarse (by an octave?) and becomes inaudible at 9 (note C4 on a Montage 7). The Fine setting slides the pitch up between the Coarse settings (for me it becomes inaudible at 9.18).

Altering the Coarse/Fine settings on any or all of the remaining 7 Operators has no effect whatsoever on the sound. The Ratio changes from 1.99 at Op1 to 1040 at Op8 - but the sound remains unchanged to that obtained with Op1.

So what is going wrong, please?

Hello BM, and you are of course right - there is a difference between Algorithms 15, 16, and 17, the 'Feedback' changes from Op3 to Op5 to Op7, But how do I audition these Algorithms? I assume they each have a factory setting, but going through produces nothing but a change of volume (many are inaudible) to a sine wave. Perhaps none of them have a factory setting?

Altering the Coarse/Fine settings on any or all of the remaining 7 Operators has no effect whatsoever on the sound. The Ratio changes from 1.99 at Op1 to 1040 at Op8 - but the sound remains unchanged to that obtained with Op1.

So what is going wrong, please?

Pay attention to the levels of the carriers.

Alg. 1 is made up of only carriers - no modulators. You know this because the 2nd "row" of operators and above (3rd, 4th, etc) are modulators. All the boxes with numbers are operators - some are carriers, some are modulators. The bottom row - which alg. 1 is only a bottom row - are all carriers.

The carrier is the only type of operator which outputs to your speakers. The modulators change the timbre of the carrier. However, using Alg 1 has no modulators, so you do not have to worry about that.

The Init Normal (FM-X) performance Alg 1 only sets the level to a non-zero value for operator 1. Set the screen menu to "Level" (left hand side) and look at the lower-left box labeled "Level" which is to the left of the box labeled "Level/Vel". Notice that operator 1 shows a level of 99, now press "2" and "3" staying on the same screen. The levels will be zero (0).

This is historical perspective: unlike the DX7, Montage does not have a separate operator on/off switch. Instead, you use level set to 0 to turn an operator OFF. So to turn on the other operators, set the level to a non-zero value. For alg 1, this is like sliding a fader up on a mixer. To start with, only operator 1 is set to 99 (max level) and all the rest are set to 0 (min level). If you want all of the operators ON - you may want to set the level lower for operator 1 and match levels with the other operators such that adding in 7 more operators doesn't make the overall sound (assuming they would all be playing at once) get too "hot".

If you notice when setting the level - your sliders 1-8 are "moving" (or the LEDs are moving for the sliders) - then your sliders are in the correct mode to just use the sliders themselves to set the level. First, move all the sliders to the max position (all the way up), then minimum position (all the way down), then set each to a level - perhaps in the middle or upper-middle. Note that the "up and down" motion is to "catch" the current position. If you've dealt with how the sliders work - you'll know that sometimes you can move them and the LED does not follow. This is actually a feature and doing the "up and down" motion is a way to make sure you "take control" of the LED position. Since the LED position is indicating what the setting currently is - this is not just about aesthetics. It's about making sure you have control over the level.

Another historical perspective: the early FM synths only had sine waves (for "Spectral"). Montage has a few more: All 1, All 2, Odd 1, Odd 2, Res 1, Res 2. Other FM synths have had even more. For now, sticking with ONLY sine - as a way to appreciate the earlier hardware - you'll notice that using Alg 1 - all the carriers sound pretty much the same. Maybe a higher pitch or a lower pitch - maybe louder or softer - but the same general "sound" (timbre).

Since the carriers for Alg 1 have no modulators, there's no way to make any of the carriers (all set to Sine spectral) sound like anything other than a pure Sine - which has a distinct sound. You can only change the pitch or volume. It's like you have 8 sticks of butter. Maybe salted (low pitch) maybe whipped (low volume) maybe margarine (high pitch) - but mixed together it still all tastes like butter. In order to get some eggs and flour and icing - you've got to modulate the sine wave into something else. This is where the modulators come in - which can change the timbre and make the carrier that the modulator is hooked up to sound different.

So you can see why the original architects would want to add modulators. And they just call different arrangements of this the different algorithms. Sometimes it's just butter + popcorn (two operator stack - "simple" pair). Sometimes it's a whole cake - and sometimes you take the ingredients from one place and feed it back to itself. Kind of like cooking a duck and sticking it inside a turkey. More variety in ways to arrange the 8 operators together. Each arrangement as a different "algorithm". I think maybe it would be less intimidating to just think "arrangement" (of operators) instead of "algorithm" since math is one of those touchy subjects and may invoke trauma for some. I'm saying internally think of it like this. The "public" term for discussion should remain as "algorithm".

Hello Robin - sorry! I missed the significance of your 'levels' - a simple matter of banging all the sliders to maximum, and then adjusting from there to achieve what I consider the 'best' saw wave sound. A lesson I should have learned - the sliders refer directly to the operators (as indeed do the knobs when the appropriate 'TONE', 'EQ/FX' or ARP/MS button is lit). I think I've got it now ...

Hello Jason - nicely put, thank you! You have a way of slanting things that make them more easily seen. I figured out the sliders! Having already had a run at an organ sound, I should have remembered about them - and the knobs too. But the penny eventually dropped and I spent a couple of hours fiddling with Algo 35 to get somewhere near a trumpet. It's rubbish, but I'll be back ...

Loved your 'cake' analogy - and an exact parallel! In my mind I see algorithms as 'patterns', and my plan is to establish the patterns best suited to various instruments - there's probably a list somewhere - and your explanation about using '0' as a switch hit the mark! Simple and effective. Some effects are also needed (like tremolo in the trumpet) to toss into the mix. FM is indeed complex, as I have feared, but it is mathematical, and therefore relentlessly logical - once you know the rules!

It appears that the new OS update will allow for easier algorithm access and modification for auditioning.

Rod wrote:

Hello Robin - sorry! I missed the significance of your 'levels' - a simple matter of banging all the sliders to maximum, and then adjusting from there to achieve what I consider the 'best' saw wave sound. A lesson I should have learned - the sliders refer directly to the operators (as indeed do the knobs when the appropriate 'TONE', 'EQ/FX' or ARP/MS button is lit). I think I've got it now ...

See? You're getting better and better! 😉

It sounds like you made alot of progress. What can you tell me about the progress so far since you started the thread? It would be nice to know if you have any questions.

What sounds have you made with success?

Try to explain back to me about how FM works. The best way to learn is to teach others, because you need to check facts before you pass it on eventually. Once you explain to me how FM works, you will confirm to your self and me that you have understood the basics.

How you choose to apporach FM from now, is totally up to you. The prinsiples of Complexity, brightness and timbre, is based on my way of thinking. Please use it, if it makes sense for your progress. Feel free to develop your own way of doing things.

Want more challenge? Just let me know in this thread, I'll keep checking the forum for posts as allways. 🙂

Hello Robin - nice of you to take an interest. I have a million questions, but articulating them sensibly is the problem! For example, I grasp what 'envelope' means for 'ADSR' (Attack, Decay, Sustain, Release) because it has a definite shape over time - but I'm not sure when it comes to Pitch and Amplitude - what is a 'Pitch envelope' and an 'Amplitude envelope'? High/Low and Loud/Soft - the only variables are amount and time - how much and how long. Is that it? Not so much a shape as a step.

I'm never happy with anything I've made. Always room for improvement. I have only a couple from Algo88, a cross between an EP and a Vibraphone I quite like, and the same thing with a Pad tacked on. I don't get a lot of time on the Montage, as it's a hobby more than anything.

As I understand it, 'FM' is simply modulating a sine wave (the 'Carrier') with another of a different frequency (the 'Modulator') that combine to produce a sound that varies with the frequency of the modulating wave. Harmony or discord is determined by the ratio between the frequencies of the two - I think the Carrier is always '1' and the Modulator relates to that. Complexity ('timbre') is achieved by adding more Modulators either to the same Carrier, or to other Carriers, outputs being blended to produce more and more complex sounds. Only Carriers have outputs and, depending on the ratios, these can be other wave forms - square, triangle, sawtooth (leading or trailing), and pulse. Carriers and Modulators are referred to as 'Operators', and the more you have, the greater the range and complexity of the sounds that can be produced.

As you say, writing it down does enhance clarity - you have to think about it! Hope it's right. As to 'challenges' I think I have enough to keep me quiet for some time to come - I still think there is a 'best pattern' for each type of sound, and I have no idea of what they might be as yet, so much research and experiment is called for! But I now feel able to tackle it, which is entirely new!

You understand ADSR as a thing that goes up and down over time.

A as the attack (right when you strike the key, the attack immediately happens)
D as the decay (which can be "rolling off" the attack - but the level COULD be the same or even more than the attack.)
S as the sustain (while you hold down the key you're in this area)
R as the release (after you let go - what happens? keep the same level, decrease/increase?)

Now these can be applied to three different areas:

Amplitude ("volume") - so, over time, when the ADSR "graph" goes up the volume is increasing and when the graph goes down - volume is decreasing.
The ADSR graph is sometimes referred to as an "EG" = envelope generator. The Amplitude envelope generator is known as AEG (ADSR graph for amplitude)

Filter ("effect") - so over time, when the ADSR "graph" goes up the amount of effect applied is increased and when the graph goes down - the effect amount is decreased
See above - sometimes referred to as FEG (ADSR graph for filter)

Pitch (self explanatory) - so over time, when the ADSR "graph" goes up, the pitch is increased and when the graph goes down - the pitch is decreased.
See above - sometimes referred to as PEG (ADSR graph for pitch)

Rod wrote:

Hello Robin - nice of you to take an interest. I have a million questions, but articulating them sensibly is the problem! For example, I grasp what 'envelope' means for 'ADSR' (Attack, Decay, Sustain, Release) because it has a definite shape over time - but I'm not sure when it comes to Pitch and Amplitude - what is a 'Pitch envelope' and an 'Amplitude envelope'? High/Low and Loud/Soft - the only variables are amount and time - how much and how long. Is that it? Not so much a shape as a step.

I'm never happy with anything I've made. Always room for improvement. I have only a couple from Algo88, a cross between an EP and a Vibraphone I quite like, and the same thing with a Pad tacked on. I don't get a lot of time on the Montage, as it's a hobby more than anything.

As I understand it, 'FM' is simply modulating a sine wave (the 'Carrier') with another of a different frequency (the 'Modulator') that combine to produce a sound that varies with the frequency of the modulating wave. Harmony or discord is determined by the ratio between the frequencies of the two - I think the Carrier is always '1' and the Modulator relates to that. Complexity ('timbre') is achieved by adding more Modulators either to the same Carrier, or to other Carriers, outputs being blended to produce more and more complex sounds. Only Carriers have outputs and, depending on the ratios, these can be other wave forms - square, triangle, sawtooth (leading or trailing), and pulse. Carriers and Modulators are referred to as 'Operators', and the more you have, the greater the range and complexity of the sounds that can be produced.

As you say, writing it down does enhance clarity - you have to think about it! Hope it's right. As to 'challenges' I think I have enough to keep me quiet for some time to come - I still think there is a 'best pattern' for each type of sound, and I have no idea of what they might be as yet, so much research and experiment is called for! But I now feel able to tackle it, which is entirely new!

An envelope is basically a tool to modulate a parameter. You have an envelope that controls the amplitude (AMP) within each Operator.
AMP, Amplitude, Level, and Volume are all technically the same. Those are just different therminologies.

As you remember, controlling the LEVEL of a Carrier controls the amplitude of the sound you hear. But when you control the LEVEL of a modulator,
you control the brightness of the sound.

An envelope is simply there to control how the parameter changes over time from the point you strike the key, till you release it.
An ADSR envelope is very basic, but most common in synthesizers in general.

Attack - the time it takes before the controlled parameter reaches maximum level.
Decay - the time it takes from maximum level, to the sustain level.
Sustain - Is the level you end up with before you release the key.
Release - The time it takes before the level reaches 0 from the sustain level, after you release the key.

But for FM synthesis, an envelope with more steps and control is needed because you want to control how the sound changes,
and sometimes the level goes down and back up after that again etc. Sit down with the Operator envelope (AMP) and learn it, both on a carrier
and on a modulator.

The logic is simple. On the operator you have two types of control on the envelopes. Time and Level.
A time parameter controls how long it takes to go from one level parameter to the next level parameter.
A level parameter is simply amount of amplitude. But it can never go beyond the Operator Level setting. So when you change the level of the operator, it represents the maximum level for the envelope level parameters.

Envelopes are very important, once you get the hang of it, you will see that it's actually very simple and you will jump straight to it when you program sounds.
To emulate instrument behaviour, like a trumpet that has a bright peak at the beginning, you need a bit higher level at that point on the modulator(s).

A pitch envelope works the same way, it changes the the frequency of the tone instead of the amplitude.
Only difference is that pitch envelopes also works with negative values, since frequencies can go up or down.

Spend all the time you need to get your understanding of envelopes right. One "step" at a time. 😉

Hello Jason - my apologies - also to Tho - I have no idea what happened there, I checked on 'Cool Trance' (in Category 'SynComp') and it's as you say, a single Part Pf. I've looked above it, below it, to either side, and there's nothing like the Pf I got the first time. Neither does the same name appear in any other CVategory, so I'm completely stumped as to where the Pf I was referring to came from! I think this thing has an Evil Agenda of its own ... at least the nub of it was OK - only FM Parts can have algorithms ... sorry again, guys ...