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Note limits for Motion Sequence Trigger

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Jason
Posts: 8238
Illustrious Member
Topic starter
 

Rather than muddy the existing thread where this was mentioned, I'm breaking out a new thread to elaborate. To summarize - the quick rundown is that I think it would be beneficial to add note-limits to the motion sequence key triggers (to round out the velocity-only limit). Having expressed this, one opinion from Yamaha support was that motion sequence couldn't use this because motion sequence drives parameters and not note on/off. Which I feel misses the boat on why note limits would be useful - leading to this thread. Perhaps a (hypothetical) real-world example would help illustrate.

From a recent update to https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Add-note-limit-to-Motion-Sequence-Trigger/231285-45978

At a moderate tempo, I have a run of 16 16th notes (one full 4/4 measure) finger-played patterns that run up the keyboard. For this one measure, I add a minor 3rd above the note I am playing for parallel motion. This -9 semi-tone note shift part (my other PART parallel with it is -12) can be turned ON for the start of the run manually by pressing the SCENE button to unmute the -9 (adding a minor 3rd) PART. However, at the end of the run there is not enough time to change scenes back and also cover the downbeat of the next measure. The real-world use of note limits on motion sequence is that I could note-limit the MS-Lane to trigger only on the last note of my arpeggio run. The MS Lane would be setup to no loop and at the end of the cycle cut off the volume for the -9 (minor 3rd) part. Therefore, the next note I play will automatically not have the extra minor 3rd as intended. Having areas of rests after this part of the tune is done, I can press a different scene which would toggle motion sequence OFF - thus resetting the lanes to their reset positions which would "rearm" the motion sequence for my next run of 16th notes. This same scene would also mute the minor 3rd part - so when I am ready for the minor 3rds again - I can press the SCENE button at the beginning of my run which would unmute the minor 3rd PART AND turn on motion sequence - which, because it is note limited to the final note of my run - would again cut off the minor 3rd PART's volume automatically when the last note is played.

This is yet one real-world example that preserves resources of ARPs - allowing this PART to have ARPs if that's called for that are not tied up for control.

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 08/05/2019 10:32 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12303
 

Mainly because the goal of this forum is what you can do with the instrument now (ideascale is for wishes and dreaming...), with the current firmware you might try the following:

Since your ‘routine’ involves hitting buttons (Scene) as well as hitting keys: You can assign the Motion Sequence to the [MOTION SEQ TRIGGER] button (cc89). This will trigger the Motion Sequence, on demand... so you simply need to coordinate your last Note with pressing that button or you can assign the trigger of the Motion Sequence to a FS.

And as previously suggested, you can Note Limit the Element(s) or Part(s) so that when you hit the highest note, and only that highest note, you will trigger the Motion Sequence. You simply need to analyze your Destination parameter; create the situation using Note Limits for the Elements or Parts.

These very practical methods already exist.

 
Posted : 08/05/2019 2:37 pm
Jason
Posts: 8238
Illustrious Member
Topic starter
 

I do not see a way using conventional methods to limit motion sequence triggers. The easiest way for me to hear this is to pull up Init FM-X and change the hold level to 99. I change the note range to C3-C3 (one note). This does not limit motion sequence triggers. Motion sequence will always look at full range of the keyboard. I setup the MS Lane 1 for a single cycle - not repeating - keeping the default pulse shape. MS Lane 1 source and pitch as destination - again, default shape. Now if I strike keys outside of C3 (anywhere) - I hear motion sequence triggering. There isn't a way to limit this.

You were suggesting AWM2 - I can demonstrate the same thing there.

Init Normal (AWM2) - change release level to 127. Limit element to single note C3. Limit PART to single note C3. Setup MS Lane same as FM-X example above (destination pitch). Strike C3 - I hear the pitch cycle as expected - fine. Note is still audible - I strike any note on the keyboard outside of the element/PART note range - the pitch motion sequence is retriggered. Motion sequence cannot be limited by note range.

The example where only one note out of my range would trigger the motion sequence to start the cycles isn't possible using conventional methods.

It IS possible - but you have to burn resources other than motion sequence and destinations. Or I have to use ARPs. There's no hands free for hitting the motion sequence trigger in a 16th note of time as both hands are playing the run. It'd be easier to hit the SCENE button since it's closer which would have been a way out.

I do have a solution - but it burns a PART. Uses envelope follower and an FM-X carrier with no decay (on forever). This is reset using mute to rearm for another go. It works - but I do not always anticipate having a free PART to burn. I do believe there are clear cases where one would only want to modulate if a certain keyboard range is triggered and not modulate for other ranges of the keyboard. The way motion sequence is setup - you cannot do this unless you piggy-back on ARPs which is another limited resource (not always possible if already in use).

I'm not looking for Montage to change. I'm not sure what the stumbling block is for seeing the value in note range limits for modulation trigger.

If I'm missing something - then perhaps you can submit a soundmondo Performance with a single PART where motion sequence will trigger only on a single note while the range of possible played notes is wider than a single note.

MS Lane with 1 cycle, no loop, with destination that offsets the volume by -127 (turns "off" the PART) - using a threshold so for some time the pulse has no offset to volume and 2nd half of cycle volume is offset.
C3 does not trigger, D3 does not trigger, E3 does not trigger, F3 triggers - PART is no longer audible. Pressing C3, D3, E3 doesn't cause the volume to go back through its 0 offset (not triggered so cycle stays in its terminated position) Without having to press hold and without using MS Trigger. And without piggy-backing on ARPs (no use of Sync to ARPs by MS).

I believe there isn't a way to limit the motion sequence trigger by note range under these conditions - but am certainly open to learning otherwise.

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 08/05/2019 9:03 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12303
 

There is no extra points for not using resources. You see it as some kind of an issue to use the available resources, that is what they are for... you can use 64 Normal AWM2 Elements to create your sound, you can use 64 FM-X Operators to create your sound, you can use a combination of Elements and Operators to create your sound. No points are awarded for not “burning resources”! Use them!

Points only awarded for using the current firmware to accomplish the goal. There is absolutely nothing wrong with product requests or musing about what parameters are not here, it is just that IdeaScale is the appropriate place for such thoughts. Not at all difficult to understand the request (... the forum is about what’s possible NOW!) To get a discussion going on a subject rather than announce that it’s too bad that it doesn’t do something, the approach should be what if I wanted to x-y-and-z, how would I go about it. Them you can approach it, see just what is currently available —and then you can determine if a feature addition is necessary.

There is no one way to approach this so I’ve posted several examples. The selected parameter Destination determines how you should proceed to accomplish the Note Limit for the Motion Sequence.

If you would like to trigger the Motion Sequence from a specific note region, you must consider the nature of the parameter you are controlling.
If the Destination parameter is an Element parameter, a Part parameter, a parameter within the Insertion Effects, or a parameter within the System Effects, Master Effects or the Master EQ.

Element Destination — any single key or range of keys can be set to trigger the MSeq. Element Switches are used to create this.
String Orchestra only the C4 Key triggers the Motion Sequence. All other keys play normally.
Accomplished with two Elements...
Element 1 plays all Notes, except C4
Element 2 plays only C4
C4 is the one note the triggers the Motion Seq
Soundmondo Link: Ens Mix (C4 MSeq)

A second one accomplished with all Notes from C3-G8 regioned to play the Motion Sequence. This sound is a single Part with 3 Elements of Strings, 1 Element of Brass, and a 1 Element Bell. The Motion Sequence is applied to the Brass and the Brass is only in when the MW is raised.
Two Scenes recall two different Motion Sequences
Soundmondo Link: St Ens (C3-G8 MSeq)

Part Destinations -- when the target parameter is at the PART level of the architecture you can duplicate the PART and isolate the NOTE LIMIT Range so that only that PART utilizes the MSeq, the other Notes will play normally. MS uses Part Volume, Part Pitch, and Var Send
Soundmondo Link: PolyPad MW (C4=MS)

 
Posted : 09/05/2019 12:43 pm
Jason
Posts: 8238
Illustrious Member
Topic starter
 

Thanks for providing the soundmondo examples. I know what you mean by the element limits - you also have to pair this with element-only destinations and the modulation can only apply to that range.

Neither of these approaches limit the motion sequence trigger - they limit the destination. The trigger is still full-scale - but you carve out less notes that are destinations. My goal was not to limit the destination of the modulation.

My goal was to have the entire PART as the destination and have a subset of notes in the PART trigger motion sequence. I do not think this is possible - so something other than motion sequence has to be used which is what I'm doing (envelope follower). Or, there is the ARP "trick" if I'm not already using an ARP in that PART.

I'm not trying to conserve resources simply for the sake of doing so. But burning a PART when I "only" have 8 isn't always a possibility. And this does not scale if I have more than one instrument that could use this feature. I'd have to "burn" one, potentially, per PART - and I have even less room to double-up on PARTs. That covers the PART resource. The ARP resource can't always be used because the ARP is a single-use item. I don't always have the ARP free to dedicate for this (patching up where lack of motion sequence note limits "failed" to serve). Your response makes it seem like I'm leaving things on the table. I don't ever do this. Typically, I'll find a way. I believe a reasonable use case can be demonstrated for this and I'm guessing I didn't miss anything which leads me to burn a PART per instance of doing the envelope follower trick to get around this.

... and the envelope follower is OK for something simple (ON/OFF type things). It doesn't really replace anything other than a simple motion sequence that itself will toggle something - which is where I started with this. I can see wanting to do more typical modulation where I would want true MS applied to full-scale when my trigger notes are only select notes. This requires use of an ARP which is not always available to "burn".

Thanks for confirming there's not a feature which allows limiting the MS trigger.

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 10/05/2019 6:01 am
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