Don't seize on the number Algorithms or Operators as any kind of "limitation" - unlimited Algorithms does not in any way increase the infinite number of sounds that you can make in any way that you could measure. I remember getting a life altering answer from Dr. Chowning back in the 1980s when I asked him about unlimited Algorithms and Operators... They (CCRMA) had constructed some huge number of Operators... In response to my query about what was possible, he admitted to not playing much with it, he left that for the students, he was still trying to master what could be done with just two Operators. (Humbling moment).

What is new and exciting is the Motion Control engine that surrounds the FM-X engine, and how they can interact.

Of course, we anticipate those who tend to only "look backwards" (it's safe back there in the past because it's like watching reruns of old shows, you know what to expect) so they will seek to fill their Montage FM-X with sounds of the past. We're more interested in how you can improve on them and move the technology forward with what's possible in this new engine... Those old sounds use six operators, and since it no longer requires a M:C (short stack) to make a complex waveform, you really have a wonderful opportunity to build new sounds...

How the Motion Control engine interacts with FM-X is different from any of the previous iterations of the technology. So much so, it will invited even those not so versed in the musical mathematics that is FM synthesis background, to be creative and become programmers. More interesting (IMHO) than being able to create your own Algorithms, is being able to use any source to modify/interact with the Modulators in an FM-X stack. Literally almost everything you try works on some level, many results are compelling. Output the notes of an arpeggiator so that their audio bursts create an envelope that can be used to change the timbre of the FM-X result. Instead of the arp being traditional note flourishes they now become a perculating percussive timbre change inside an FM-X pad sound. Then route a counter-rhythm to pan the Carriers in the stereo field, and you're off and running down the hallway into a space you know that is yet unexplored.

Making your Montage sound like your old Motif XF or your old DX7, or old TX816, I "get it" but also consider we fully expect big "new" things; the future of this iteration of FM is just getting started. They said it back in '83 FM, the Future of Music... Well it's future starts again, now, to be sure!

Just my two and a half sense.
🙂 enjoy.

BM,

Thank you so much for the informative response. This is making me more eager to go out and get out, but I'm genuinly curious on some of these creative sound design choices. Not nessisarily choices that are available (because I understand that is a loaded answer), but what original sounds you or other owners have created with this synth engine. After watching countless videos and tinkering with the Montage at my local dealer, I'm absolutely sick of hearing the presets (though they are incredible) and am unable to spend hours creating sounds inside guitar center: I'd love to hear what you or other users have created with the FM-X engine. There are literally no videos of people creating original sounds, so is there any chance that you can post some or send me in the direction of people that have? Other forum readers, I'd love to hear what you've done as well!!! Thanks BM!! Looked up Dr. Chowning BTW.....did you actually study with him??? Thats incredible!!!

The first thing I tried was take one of those perculating arpeggios, and instead outputting the data as audible notes, I used its audio energy to modify the Operator Level of two Modulators in an FM PAD sound... The results kept me in headphones for hours, playing around with possibilities. I then used another arp's rhythmic bursts to Pan the Carriers in the stereo panorama, and it was sunrise by the time I came up for air! Output the notes of an arpeggiator so that their audio bursts create an envelope that can be used to change the timbre of the FM-X result. Instead of the arp being traditional note flourishes they now become a perculating percussive timbre change inside an FM-X pad sound. Then route a counter-rhythm to pan the Carriers in the stereo field, and you're off and running down the hallway into a space you know that is yet unexplored.

Can anyone please elaborate on this idea? I can't see a way to assign an arp pattern to just a single operator. Seems it's only assignable to a full part, thus all 8 operators at once, and fully audible "note flourishes". I love the theory of what's being described here. But I'm losing the step by step practice of it on the montage. Thanks for possibly elaborating on this concept.

Grant wrote:.... I was set on the idea that it was like FM8 in regards to routing carriers and operators to wherever you please, along with feedback and so on. HOWEVER, now it has come to my attention that there are 88 preset algorithms of which you CANNOT change, but only choose from.

That being said, it also means you can't start from a simple sine wave and create/sculpt your own sound.

Hi Grant. Firstly, you'll find that you'll have more than can be coped with using the preset 88 algorithms. It'll take you months & years to explore their potential.
But if you want more than 88 algorithms, you probably can; as soon as the editors are released. Previous editors already had the feature of changing algorithms & feedback loops to your heart's desire. Very likely the Montage editors will do so as well.
The SY77/99 editors had this facility. I used it, but already had my hands full with the 45 very versatile algorithms, especially when including the hybrid synthesis & imported complex wave forms (from the AWM side of the SY77/99). So I lost interest in it, as being overkill.
http://www.yamahaforums.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3512
http://www.vintagesynth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51465
Now with double the number of algorithms of the SY77/99, the Montage will give you more than enough to cope with. I really can't see how anyone would have a particular sound in their head, and think "Aha, I need algorithm number 92, to create that particular sound". Most FMX programming will be done by trial & error tweaking, and as Bad Mister wrote, trying new tricks in sound creation, such as driving the operators with the arpeggiator. So they will be serendipitous discoveries.

And yes, you CAN use sine (and other editable) waves in your operators. See Reference Manual: http://download.yamaha.com/search/download
And previous thread: https://www.yamahasynth.com/index.php?option=com_easydiscuss&view=post&id=5099&Itemid=851

Bad Mister wrote, trying new tricks in sound creation, such as driving the operators with the arpeggiator.

So HOW do u drive an *individual* operator w an arpeggio!?? Is it through the envelope follower? I'm stumped.

Yes, the Envelope Follower is definitely one of the ways. Arpeggios do not have to be used in a traditional manner at all. In fact, you can set the audio Out to "Off" instead of "Main L&R", this way their Audio energy can be used to create an "envelope" which can be used for other Parts to "follow".

Setting the arpeggiated Part as ENVELOPE FOLLOWER source, it can then be used in any other Part as a modifier. In the example I mentioned an FM-X sound occupied Parts 1 and 2, in Part 3 I would try any number of Parts assigned to a very rhythmic arpeggiation.

Then in Parts 1 and 2's Control Assign matrix I set "EnvFollow3" as Source, and "OP Level" as a Destination.
By studying the FM-X Parts, I looked to find which Operators were Modulators in the FM algorithm (knowing these would modify the timbre) - because the Destination parameter allows you select which Operators are influenced, the influence of the arpeggio can be directed to just specific Operators. (There are Operator On/Off Switches on some of those Destinations listed as "FM Parameters": these include OP Freq, OP Level, OP Spectral, OP Skirt, OP Resonance, OP Detune, OP AEG Offset, OP AEG Attack, OP AEG Decay1, OP Decay2, OP AEG Release, OP PEG Attack, OP PEG Decay.

When you Edit the ENVELOPE FOLLOWER for the source Part, you can control the amplitude, and the attack-release (very important)... I generated very quick (fast attack, short release) bursts so to make darting pulses. You can vary to taste. (But if set too slow and too long, it kind of washes out the impact) set to taste. Careful with the amplitude less you wind up over modulating the results.

I experimented with both simple and complex arpeggio patterns, looking and listening for their rhythmic contribution (I was unconcerned with their note information, because I set the audio output of that Part to "Off". What I was seeking was something to make the pad sound more interesting than just a smooth underpinning. When I then added an actual drum groove Part, you become aware that things work because rhythmically everything is related and references the clock.

First, I experimented with OP Level, both Carriers (very dramatic) and then Modulators (more subtle) and then with Pan. Once you get the hang of this ....almost everything you try works on some level once you connect the dots. Between Side Chain Modulation (which also can use Arps to modify) and the Envelope Follower and Vocoder, there is no shortage of ways to use the 10,000 Arps to create new and wholly unique sounds!

On the PART's Common > Effects screen you have the option to route the signal to the "Main L&R" output, which the default, but if you'd rather not use the audio of the arpeggio pattern, you can simply change the Output to Off. Now its influence is manifest through the Part that is Side Chaining or through the Part set to EnvFollow.

The Destination parameter you select will be either global for the entire Part, or if you select a Destination that has Element (AWM2) Switches, or Operator (FM-X) Switches you can select exactly what follows the influence of the arpeggios output.

We are covering this type of assignment in "Programming Basics" series of articles, now active in the Montage RESOURCES area.

Bad Mister wrote:

Yes, the Envelope Follower is definitely one of the ways. Arpeggios do not have to be used in a traditional manner at all. In fact, you can set the audio Out to "Off" instead of "Main L&R", this way their Audio energy can be used to create an "envelope" which can be used for other Parts to "follow".

Setting the arpeggiated Part as ENVELOPE FOLLOWER source, it can then be used in any other Part as a modifier. In the example I mentioned an FM-X sound occupied Parts 1 and 2, in Part 3 I would try any number of Parts assigned to a very rhythmic arpeggiation.

Then in Parts 1 and 2's Control Assign matrix I set "EnvFollow3" as Source, and "OP Level" as a Destination.
By studying the FM-X Parts, I looked to find which Operators were Modulators in the FM algorithm (knowing these would modify the timbre) - because the Destination parameter allows you select which Operators are influenced, the influence of the arpeggio can be directed to just specific Operators. (There are Operator On/Off Switches on some of those Destinations listed as "FM Parameters": these include OP Freq, OP Level, OP Spectral, OP Skirt, OP Resonance, OP Detune, OP AEG Offset, OP AEG Attack, OP AEG Decay1, OP Decay2, OP AEG Release, OP PEG Attack, OP PEG Decay.

When you Edit the ENVELOPE FOLLOWER for the source Part, you can control the amplitude, and the attack-release (very important)... I generated very quick (fast attack, short release) bursts so to make darting pulses. You can vary to taste. (But if set too slow and too long, it kind of washes out the impact) set to taste. Careful with the amplitude less you wind up over modulating the results.

I experimented with both simple and complex arpeggio patterns, looking and listening for their rhythmic contribution (I was unconcerned with their note information, because I set the audio output of that Part to "Off". What I was seeking was something to make the pad sound more interesting than just a smooth underpinning. When I then added an actual drum groove Part, you become aware that things work because rhythmically everything is related and references the clock.

First, I experimented with OP Level, both Carriers (very dramatic) and then Modulators (more subtle) and then with Pan. Once you get the hang of this ....almost everything you try works on some level once you connect the dots. Between Side Chain Modulation (which also can use Arps to modify) and the Envelope Follower and Vocoder, there is no shortage of ways to use the 10,000 Arps to create new and wholly unique sounds!

On the PART's Common > Effects screen you have the option to route the signal to the "Main L&R" output, which the default, but if you'd rather not use the audio of the arpeggio pattern, you can simply change the Output to Off. Now its influence is manifest through the Part that is Side Chaining or through the Part set to EnvFollow.

The Destination parameter you select will be either global for the entire Part, or if you select a Destination that has Element (AWM2) Switches, or Operator (FM-X) Switches you can select exactly what follows the influence of the arpeggios output.

We are covering this type of assignment in "Programming Basics" series of articles, now active in the Montage RESOURCES area.

This is the sort of info i've been after, thanks

Thanks so much for the detailed response. I totally get it now, and I've been able to delve into this programming, and duplicate what you describe. Its brilliant! The Montage may well be the most well appointed and powerful FM hardware synth in history to date. It may not go down every single path of the FS1r (mostly, formants), but as a straight FM synth, with controllers, features, unreal modulations, and an incredible interface....its power is unmatched. I'll look forward to your next article on Montage Env-Follower. Thanks again!

Now *THAT* is why I bought this instrument! thank you 🙂

Note: when you try to upload an attachment, and it fails - it still posts your message. Deleting duplicate messages due to this behavior ... (Of course cannot "delete" but can change the text).

Note: when you try to upload an attachment, and it fails - it still posts your message. Deleting duplicate messages due to this behavior ...

Didn't see it closed out in this thread, and didn't find a "hit" when searching elsewhere. I went ahead and went through matching up Montage FM-X algorithms to DX7 algorithms. Attached is a text file I can now use as a decoder ring. Since DX7 only has 6 operators - there are sometimes more than choice on how to configure the FM-X available alg. to a DX7 one. I tried to minimize the different ways that operator numbering from the DX7 would map to the Montage alg. I call these Mapping A-Mapping J.

What I found was all the DX7 alg. do indeed have at least one Montage alg. that can replicate the same DX7 one. The text file also denotes which operators to set to level=0 in order to turn them off.

To Bad Mister: I had been one of the first in germany who made auditions and programmed sounds with the DX7 in 1983, and I really love the FMX-section of my new montage.
But I DO miss the possibility of getting feedback to EVERY operator. Even the spectral wave/skirt systems offers many new sounds there is nothing like the sound of only 1 operator with feedback. And for to get near to it you need 2 operators minimum.
And if we speak about feedback: it is boring to switch from op-edit to common-edit only to change the feedback-level. Feedback affects only one operator and should not be a common parameter!
Maybe an idea for the next os-update.

Thank you for you alway competent postings!

- SAMM -

But I DO miss the possibility of getting feedback to EVERY operator. Even the spectral wave/skirt systems offers many new sounds there is nothing like the sound of only 1 operator with feedback.

In fact, it is very much exactly the sound of having a feedback loop on each Operator (except with additional options).

The current FM-X Algorithms feature the single Feedback loop per Algorithm to allow compatibility with previous iterations of the Yamaha FM engine. But when you setup the Spectral Wave and Spectral Skirt (which can be fine on any or all of the eight Operators) as outlined below it renders the exact same waveform and sidebands as an Operator feedback loop.

From the upcoming Programming Basics FM-X tutorial....
____________________
Using Spectral Forms extends the power of FM synthesis. It allows a basic sound, which is very different from classic FM (Sine Wave). The "All 1" and "All 2" types produce the Sawtooth family of waveforms which reproduce all whole integer multiples of the fundamental, while the "Odd 1" and "Odd 2" types create harmonic that are the pulse family of waveforms (including the square wave - every other harmonic; first, third, fifth, etc.).

"All 1" + "Skirt" value 7 = Sawtooth

"Odd 1" + "Skirt" value 7 = Square wave.

The impact of this is clear. In DX-style FM all Operators produced sine waves. To create a complex waveform (one with harmonics) it was necessary, at minimum, to use a two Operator stack (M:C). A 1:1 ratio produced a sawtooth wave containing all harmonics. A 2:1 tuning ratio produced a "perfect" square wave, every other harmonic. A 3:1 produced a narrower pulse wave and so on. In such a system in order to modulate a Carrier with a sawtooth or a pulse wave required a 3-tiered stack. Immediately, you can see how thicker richer tones can be created with FM-X (this was introduced in the Yamaha FS1R rack module FORMANT SHAPING engine 1998.

"Res 1" and "Res 2" Spectral Forms produce resonant peaks at certain frequencies making particular harmonics louder (more prominent). Higher value means higher harmonics are increased.
______________________

These Resonant Spectral Forms go beyond the traditional Feedback structure. I've yet to really explore these in any depth.

That said, there is some benefits to the FM engine as it appeared in AFM (Advanced Frequency Modulation) iteration of Yamaha FM history... SY77 and SY99...Where specifically its "nested Feedback loops" opened yet another sonic door but at this point we are so far down the FM programming rabbit hole it would be hard to describe the actual benefit. (Perhaps we can get Dr. Manny Fernandez to weigh in on this in his upcoming FM programming series).

Still there is plenty (plenty) to explore with the current system, particularly since virtually anything can be used to interact with your FM-X creation.
Try comparing a Sine Wave with Feedback to an Operator that uses "ALL 1", "SKIRT" = 7, sonically the results will be similar.
Then expand you tonal selection by switching to ""ALL 2", "ODD 1", etc., etc., It's a different implementation- I loved this about the FS1R which had this same system, and find it a significant improvement in practice.

Let us know.

Realizing how related the Montage FM-X is to the FS1R, I found the following document to make for a good read:

http://mimonitor.republika.pl/fs1r_fs.pdf

It's interesting to see both the amplitude vs time waveforms and the spectrum analyzer frequency-domain plots. Waveform used here as in the oscilloscope context, not in the context of Yamaha internal audio data + keymapping.

The Montage will slightly diverge in the MIDI control department as operators can be affected by control assign destinations (which can themselves be adjusted by knobs or wheels or motion sequence).