I have seen the manual and am still not clear on a couple of things.

If you are down to ONLY a 'couple of things' you are far ahead of the rest of us - LOL!

While you wait for others to respond this info might be helpful.

Can you change tempo and time signature within a song?

A MIDI 'song' can have tempo and time signature changes. So if you are loading a song file that has them it will play properly.

But tempo and time signature changes are more difficult to create manually on the instrument itself.

If so, do you have to create a new pattern with its own tempo and meter? Can these change within the pattern?

See Bad Mister's reply in this thread - https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/question-re-modx-pattern-sequencer-and-cubase#reply-120369

__ All measures in each MONTAGE/MODX/MODX+ Pattern Scene will be at the same Time Signature and all Scenes share the current Tempo
__ Maximum "Length" for a Pattern Scene is 256 Measures. There are 8 Scenes per Pattern location.

There is some additional info there as well regarding Cubase.

Also, what is the range of possible time signatures? Can you do 7/8 or 9/8, for example? What about more complex ones like 17/16?

This is the spec from the reference manual - https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/9/812529/montage_en_rm_b0.pdf

Time Signature
Determines the meter of the Song.
Settings: 1/16 – 16/16, 1/8 – 16/8, 1/4 – 8/4

As for this

Can you do a ritardando or accelerando?

I'm not aware of any direct way to do either of those. They can be embedded directly in any MIDI data that you use but I think you would need to prepare that offline.

The whole issue of tempo changes (there is no 'tempo' knob on the instrument) has been discussed before and there are ways to sync tempo to an external source.

Here are some relevant threads:
https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/changing-montage-s-tempo/latest
https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/tempo-control-1#reply-29746

 

Thank you, Andrew! Sounds like a bit of work to do these tasks internally. I'm used to the Kronos, which allows tempo and time changes easily in a master track. I'm going to wait and see about the rumored Montage successor. If it comes, it will be interesting to see which way Yamaha goes with onboard sequencing. Maybe it will be eliminated or maybe enhanced. I hope the latter, as I enjoy a full workstation environment.

I'm used to the Kronos, which allows tempo and time changes easily in a master track.
. . .
as I enjoy a full workstation environment.

And that 'full workstation' highlights the core of the issue.

Not at all trying to be pedantic but the Montage is not a workstation - it is a synthesizer.

Different instruments are designed for different uses: synthesizers, arrangers, workstations, et al.

The Montage, like most other brands, includes SOME functionality from other instrument flavors but doesn't, and likely won't, have the full panoply of features that other varieties have.

So although it does include some powerful sequencing capability that sequencing isn't nearly as extensive as you will find on an actual sequencer or workstation.

Now might be a good time to reassess exactly what your needs are in each of the core 'music production' areas: live playing, arranging, composition, accompaniment.

If you have a prime interest in the creation of MIDI data then you want to have software and/or hardware that lets you fully manipulate the full range of what can be done with MIDI. That MIDI can still be used on the Montage/other - but your ability to take full advantage of MIDI won't be limited by the instrument you use to play/accompany.

For me the difference is between what I need to be able to do live, on-the-fly, versus what I can better do ahead of time offline.

So I focus my offline time on creating 'toolkits' of sounds, phrases, riffs, arpeggios, etc. The goal is to be able to then use the tools in those kits during live play. For me sound design is an offline endeavor. But then I use those sounds in a live environment.

Environmental things like tuning a performance (reverb, etc) for the size of the room is done offline ahead of time whenever possible. So while the sounds used might be different from gig to gig those environmental things will be the same for the same performance area.

So while the Montage may be more limited in the area of creating complex MIDI (ritardando, accelerando, etc) it is fairly easy to extract measure and phrases from imported MIDI that already has that functionality and put it into a pattern chain.

Can you change tempo and time signature within a song?

Yes. In MIDI, Songs define both Tempo and Time Signature on a per measure basis. Once you change either Tempo or Time Signature it will persist (remain at that setting) until you give a command to change. This is true in the MONTAGE, as well.

You can create MIDI Song files with MONTAGE’s Performance Recorder “Play/Rec” > “MIDI Song”

“Songs” can be recorded directly from a Performance into the MONTAGE’s MIDI Song Sequencer or they can be constructed by assembling Pattern Scenes (musical sections) into a Pattern Chain which can be converted to a linear MIDI Song.

For Tempo Changes and Time Signature Changes to take place you must place the messages that determine this on a linear timeline. The reason is not clear to many but will become clear if you think about it.

Say you create an 8 Measure Pattern Seq Scene… you decide it needs to play multiple times (creating a 64 measure section; that is, it should play eight times through)… to change the tempo from 120 to 135bpm at measure 33 will be impossible because only 8 actual measures exist.

If you’re thinking after it plays four times I’ll put in the tempo change… exactly where (which measure) would you place it? If you place it at measure 1, that won’t work… that will immediately cause it to change. There is no measure 33.

…you need to place that Tempo change on a “linear timeline” — one that represents all 64 measures. The linear timeline counts each and every measure. It represents the entire structure.

If so, do you have to create a new pattern with its own tempo and meter?

Each Pattern Scene can be a different Time Signature. The Patterns can be ‘cut and pasted’ into your linear MIDI Song at the measure you require.
Tempo changes, however, must be made once the Pattern Scenes have been converted and placed in the linear MIDI Song. All Scenes in the Pattern Sequence reference the current Tempo. Once they are placed on the linear timeline (MIDI Song) you can apply Tempo Changes.

Can you do a ritardando or accelerando?

Yes. Not sure why Andrew thinks you can’t… of course, you can!!!
In a linear MIDI Song you can record Tempo Changes in real-time or you can insert a Tempo Change at any point you desire. Simply highlight the TEMPO parameter on the MIDI Song screen, and place your Song in (Overdub) Record; use the Data Dial to document your ritardando or accelerando as you require.

The MONTAGE can play at some 295 different bpm settings, 5-300bpm.
There is no knob dedicated to this due to knob resolution, use the Data Dial when you want to change tempo through multiple settings. The Data Dial simply increments (clockwise) or decrements (counterclockwise) therefore, all values can be reached… and you can apply/record the change in real-time

If you want to *insert* a specific/immediate Tempo at a specific measure… with the MIDI Song in ‘Overdub Record’ highlight the Tempo setting, by tapping it a second time you recall the numeric entry pad, type in the value you wish… press “DONE” at the place you wish to insert the change.

Extra Credit:
If you have a composition with several time signature changes you can do what I find useful. This allows you to create your Tempo and Time Signature mapping prior to laying down your music data.

This is especially useful if you wish to play through the composition and have the MONTAGE automate the TIME SIGNATURE changes.

Create a Pattern Sequence but instead of recording the music into the Pattern, simply use the Pattern SCENEs to define a Time Signature map. Once you have an empty Scene for each Time Signature… you can construct a blank linear Song that will make playing into the structure quick and easy.

Pattern:
Select [SCENE 1]
Press [RECORD] to view the Record Standby screen
Here you can set the TIME SIGNATURE box to the value you need.
It will not be necessary to set the LENGTH because you will use the CHAIN function to determine how many measure to apply at this particular Time Signature. It’s your choice… you can set the Length of each Time change or you can use the Chain function to determine the length of each time signature change.

Rinse and repeat, making a Scene for each different Time Signature you require.
Select [SCENE 2]
In order to change the Time Signature, you must put the blank Scene into Record Standby. While in Record Standby you can set the Time Signature.

Let each Scene Record through one pass — creating a blank template.
As an alternative, you could record your Drums in the Pattern — I find this most useful because instead of just playing along with a Click, I find playing along with a drum groove in the new Time Signature a bit more inspiring!

The result will be a linear Time Signature map that has the Drum grooves I need to play along with… your mileage and music may vary.

Once you have a Scene with each Time Signature represented, you can create a Pattern Chain.

A “Pattern Chain” is a playback order… basically, a chart with two columns. “Measure” and “Scene”. You list which Scene (time sig) is active at which Measure. You can construct your Time Signature map.

You can then Convert the Chain to a blank (linear) MIDI Song.
Now when you go to that Song — and Overdub Record, the MONTAGE Click will count throughout including all your time signature changes. This gives you a blank Song that allow you to play your composition with multiple Time Signatures and have the MONTAGE Click guide your count.

Once you have your linear MIDI Song laid out you can begin to Overdub your individual Tracks as necessary. You could record the Tempo changes, as well, prior to recording (I have found it easier to put Tempo changes in after-the-fact; I guess it will depend on the composition itself.)

Of course, you could do a similar thing in Cubase.
In Cubase you would create a Tempo map and you would insert your Time Signature changes on that linear timeline. The Cubase metronome will count out all the changes allowing you to record into the predetermined layout.

By the way… if you construct your Tempo map and Time Signature format in the MONTAGE, it will be automatically stored in your MONTAGE Data Utility ‘Song Folder’ as a .mid file that includes all your Tempo and Time Signature changes.

In MIDI, Songs define both Tempo and Time Signature on a per measure basis.

YESBUT - I'm not aware of any way on the instrument to easily search for those MIDI events so that you can replace or alter them. You have to manually examine the entire song measure by measure, position by position, to try to find those events.

And you can't really change the time signature within a song. The MIDI notes of the song are already placed based on the time signature used when they were implanted.

On the Modx I've never found any way to load a song, position to a measure, and change the time signature since the 'Time Signature' parameter is displayed in black background and can't be edited.

The 'template' approach you describe appears to require an existing song to be picked apart into separate phrases (contiguous measures) so that each scene holds one phrase. I don't consider that to be the same as inserting time signature events into a single existing song.

It isn't clear what extent is of the work OP wants to do but, for me, there is a clear distinction between tools that work with existing MIDI and those that work when creating new MIDI.

A couple of those differences have been discussed at length in previous threads regarding arpeggios. Manually creating complex arps (e.g. MEGA arps) is a pain in the butt even when it can be done on the instrument.

And then existing arps can't always be triggered by song/midi/pattern data in the way one might expect.

I’m sorry, Andrew, but you’re wrong. When I read, “change the Time Signature”, I do not consider it like fixing a mistake (as you apparently do) I look at it as in creating a Song that has multiple Time Signatures (changes) within it..

I don’t think it is possible to change/EDIT an existing Time Signature (is it possible to change something you played in 4/4 to 3/4? No, and why would you want to?

…but it is possible to create a MIDI Song with 6 measures of 4/4 followed by 2 measures of 3/4, followed by 8 measures of 4/4… Absolutely!!!, that’s MUSICAL!
…and in my decades of playing music I’ve never had to “fix” a Time Signature.
…but I have hundreds of instances where songs have multiple changes in Time Signature, be it the occasional 2/4 bar, or a very fusion jazz-like multiple signatures throughout.

WHAT IS IT YOU ARE DOING? I understood the OP to write music with several time signatures within the composition.

If you write music (to staff paper) you would do a similar thing to what I describe—you would draw the measure lines, map the Time Signature changes, then fill in the music notation.

According to you, you would write the music in 4/4, then attempt to fix it (?) that’s crazy. You should create the Time Signature changes BEFORE you ink in the notation!

I understood the question to be: can you create a Song with multiple Time Signatures, and you certainly can, no ifs, ands or buts, about it! I do it all the time.

And because *you* have never found a way certainly does not mean there is not a way to do something.

On the Modx I've never found any way to load a song, position to a measure, and change the time signature since the 'Time Signature' parameter is displayed in black background and can't be edited.

The MODX/MODX+ are just like the MONTAGE. As I outlined …you input the Time Signature when you create the Pattern Scene.
Again, to do this you must put a blank Scene in Record Standby, this makes the Time Signature box available to manipulate. Once you record to that Scene, the Time Signature you set is permanent, the box turns black and cannot be edited!
Each Pattern Seq Scene can be a different Time Signature… try it!

The 'template' approach you describe appears to require an existing song to be picked apart into separate phrases (contiguous measures) so that each scene holds one phrase. I don't consider that to be the same as inserting time signature events into a single existing song.

Not at all. A Scene holds nothing but the Time Signature. As mentioned, I have composition where the verses I want to record are 6 measures of 4/4 followed by 2 measures of 3/4 followed by 8 measures of 4/4. I can build this with two Pattern Scenes:
Scene 1 = 4/4
Scene 2 = 3/4

If I create a Pattern Chain with:
Scene 1 at measure 1
Scene 2 at measure 7
Scene 1 at measure 9
I have created the Time Signature template for my composition.
I then Convert that Pattern Chain to an empty MIDI Song… I now have a Time Signature template in a blank Song… into which I can record my composition.
The Midi Song’s will correctly count the measures. Try it… don’t guess.

The role of the Pattern Sequence Scenes is as building blocks to create a linear MIDI Song.

A couple of those differences have been discussed at length in previous threads regarding arpeggios. Manually creating complex arps (e.g. MEGA arps) is a pain in the butt even when it can be done on the instrument.

If you study the MegaArpeggio and the sounds that go with them, the newbie will always say something like, “I want to make my own.” Unfortunately they do that without knowing the amount of research, and seer work that goes into it. That’s unfortunate —

Take the time and go through the tutorial on the MegaGuitar Arp with its 8 velocity swaps and incredible detail. “Pain in the butt”? Strange reaction, the reason Yamaha put those in there was their incredible musical usefulness. Appreciate the brilliance of the programming!

Andrew and Bad Mister, thank you for the further info. Very helpful and encouraging.

I see now that there is a Montage Supplementary Manual, which answers some of my questions above. The Performance Recorder has changed since I first looked at the Montage a couple of years ago. The main manual does not reflect this.

The Scene linking that Bad Mister describes above makes perfect sense and is indeed what I meant to ask about — creating linear songs that include multiple time signatures and/or tempo changes. On rare occasion, I might change my mind about the composition and need to alter a time signature after the fact.

However, normally I write everything out on manuscript paper first, before recording anything. I started composing before DAWs and scoring software existed and still write in pencil.

So, re Andrew's second reply above, my needs and preferences might be different from other people's. I don't gig, and I don't get along so well with computers. I have not used Cubase in more than 20 years. Its earliest incarnation was easy enough, but after about Cubase 5, it became more of a barrier to me. Today's DAWs with their instrument libraries, plug-ins, controllers, and interfaces just make me want to stop producing music.

So I like to work within a single machine, such as the Kronos or my Kurzweil, each of which has a linear MIDI sequencer. The fact that the Montage now has a MIDI tool (the updated Performance Recorder) that allows similar work is exciting. I know the Montage is not a full workstation (neither is my Kurzweil), but if it's flexible enough for my rather antiquated methods, it would be close enough.

Now of course the bigger question is when or whether I'll find a Montage in stock to try or purchase. I will watch through the summer for a possible successor, or for the restocking of Montage units, specifically the 6 or 7.

One more question. I don't see this in the Supplementary Manual:

Does the updated Performance Recorder allow for the editing of individual notes or other events? I don't see this in the original manual either. Maybe this has been added or expanded by now?

I don't need anything elaborate, but it's nice to be able to pull up an events list or piano roll to fix a flubbed note or two, or to adjust a note's placement or velocity value.

Perhaps this veers too deeply into "workstation" territory for a synth that's not officially a workstation? If so, I guess I could always do another take.

Perhaps this veers too deeply into "workstation" territory for a synth that's not officially a workstation? If so, I guess I could always do another take.

There is no event edit list or piano roll editing on board the MONTAGE. You are given access to free copy of Cubase… With the Yamaha utility program called “MONTAGE CONNECT” you can literally drag and drop data from the MONTAGE Song and Pattern into your computer via your USB connection. The data can be dropped into a Cubase Project which provides you piano roll editing, and all the perks of a world-class DAW.

If a computer system is not in your future… doing another take is always a tried and true method. I, myself, come from the ‘do-over generation’…

BM - I think we are talking past each other on a couple of points.

When I read, “change the Time Signature”, I do not consider it like fixing a mistake (as you apparently do) I look at it as in creating a Song that has multiple Time Signatures (changes) within it..

And when OP said this:
This is what OP ask:

Can you change tempo and time signature within a song?

I interpreted 'within a song' to mean an EXISTING song.

I think we both agree you can't change the time signature of an existing song and it wouldn't accomplish anything if you could. But that is what I was responding to.

I don’t think it is possible to change/EDIT an existing Time Signature (is it possible to change something you played in 4/4 to 3/4? No, and why would you want to?

Which is EXACTLY what I was saying when I said this:

And you can't really change the time signature within a song. The MIDI notes of the song are already placed based on the time signature used when they were implanted.
. . .
On the Modx I've never found any way to load a song, position to a measure, and change the time signature since the 'Time Signature' parameter is displayed in black background and can't be edited.

My comments don't suggest/imply that you SHOULD be able to do that - just pointing out, as you did, that you cannot.

Even using your template method you can't change the time signature once it is set. You have to recreate that scene segment with a different signature if you chose the wrong one.

We just basically interpreted OPs language somewhat differently.

[quotePost id=122384]
I don't need anything elaborate, but it's nice to be able to pull up an events list or piano roll to fix a flubbed note or two, or to adjust a note's placement or velocity value. [/quotePost]
No piano roll, but there are some ways to edit stuff: