John wrote:

Good day, SIr!

Is there a method (directly with MD-BT01, or via a connected iPad/Mac paired with bluetooth headphones) that offers minimal latency?

Thank you, John.

Whatever is the best method I don't know. However the MD-BT01 is MIDI only! You can see that from the fact, that it is connected to the MIDI ports of the synth. MIDI transports only controls signals, no audio whatsoever. So that won't work. I tried a Bluetooth transmitter. However that has high latency, I did not find a low latency one. So that did not work for me either 🙁

I’ve never, personally, found a use for Bluetooth headphones while playing a keyboard. I’m usually close enough to just plug in the headphones if phones are in order.
(I just recently saw a Bluetooth demo that showed some decent range).

The MD-BT01 is a MIDI Bluetooth device and communicates MIDI data to an appropriate receiving device. MIDI data only.
Not sure of what your application is, can you clarify what you want to do?

Thank you, BadMister for responding so quickly.

The application is that bluetooth headphones are now very good (even reference/studio monitor-quality), and wires are just another "thing" to have to keep up with. It seems like wireless is the future, and the future is kind-of here, now, for most electronic devices.

So in other words, I guess the application is one of convenience. Your comment about range is right on, as range is over 60ft for most devices/headphones now.

While of course wired phones are ok (considering that one is "right there" at the keyboard) current reference-quality phones offer hands-free telephone answering, and if you forget you have them on (I'm 56 after all) you don't hit the end of the rope, so to speak, when getting up to attend to some distraction while practicing at home not wanting to disturb others.

Cordless-ness might not be "necessary", but it will likely become somewhat mandatory in future keyboard models, for the tremendous improvement in convenience (eg., "automatic" phone communication and "why would I want to buy corded phones if I'm in the market for new phones, when bluetooth are compatible with all my other devices"-type logic).

So if it's not currently possible to use bluetooth headphones with acceptable latency with a Montage 8, that's something of a shame, as I just purchased my second one for another location, especially considering that the next model may offer that compatibility?

Thank you for any suggestions (or reality checks) you can offer, and I sincerely appreciate your answer on Sunday.

Your experience with bluetooth and latency has nothing to do with Montage. Although perhaps you can shave off a mS or two by tapping into the audio stream further back in the chain (digital stream vs. DAC output = headphone jack) - this isn't where the "unusable" latency is occurring if indeed the setup is unusable.

There are lots of uses for headphones which do not have to sync up with real-time. Televisions, for example, you can tell the video signal to lag so the two meet. This is because there's nothing forcing the television to be absolutely live. In the studio - listening to a recording - you can do the same thing. Buffer the audio compared to the controls so you compensate for how long it takes to go through bluetooth.

Playing an instrument - you cannot delay - because the time differential is between your fingers moving and your ears hearing the sound. There's no delay you can insert to make it all "work out" because when your fingers move - you expect to hear a sound right away.

Best of breed as of today is going to be something like the Master & Dynamic MW50 (among others) which utilize the aptX codec which clocks in around 35mS additional latency. Along with an aptX transmitter such as the TROND BT-DUO. I haven't tried any of these out or found great sources of users who've had success using aptX. The message here is that aptX, for bluetooth, is state-of-the-art with respect to low latency.

Here's some analysis:

https://tdcat.com/2017/03/testing-aptx-latency-trond/

The problem I have with this is that the headphones he is using he's not sure if the receiver supports the aptX low-latency mode - so this may not be using the lowest latency capable from the transmitter. I'd like to see a similar test using earphones that are known to support the aptX low-latency mode.

This is a matter of wireless technology playing catch-up so you can get a wired experience. Also, I'm not sure why you would limit yourself to bluetooth. There may be other wireless technologies available with lower latency than bluetooth. Since you have to add the transmitter and pair a receiver (headphones) with this - no reason to stick to bluetooth necessarily unless this is really the lowest latency path available.

Corded phones vs. cordless are way different in application. Here, there is no need for zero latency. If you have two phones (cordless, cellular, etc) with different numbers and call the other line - you can hear the latency is huge and absolutely would not work for real-time monitoring. Your logic is somewhat flawed in apparently making some false equivalencies.

I do understand philosophically how it would be nice to add wireless to real-time-monitoring scenarios - but physics/technology has a way of getting in the way of realizing this (perhaps). Stay in touch with the leading edge solutions. Perhaps there is something which will work (such as aptX) - or perhaps there's something else already available or soon to release in the wireless world.

Montage isn't keeping any of these technologies from being used - either present tech or tech released in the future.

Hey, Jason,

Thank you for getting me up to speed, painful as it may have been. That was very helpful, both from a philosophical and technical standpoint.

Thank you!

John

Sennhauser has a line of wireless headphones that have minimal latency. They were designed for late night television watching and for the hard of hearing folks (like I'm getting to be).

I use these with my keyboards and they work fairly well.

They're not cheap though.:(

Speaking about the headphone with Montage, I have the Audio-Technica ATH-M50x Professional Monitor Headphones, it's sounds great and loud when I plugged in my Korg Pa4X with volume level is about half way.

But when I used it with my Montage the volume level almost Max but the sounds are still low and i don't feel like it, How can I boost up the sound level for headphone on Montage?

Thanks

Speaking about the headphone with Montage, I have the Audio-Technica ATH-M50x Professional Monitor Headphones, it's sounds great and loud when I plugged in my Korg Pa4X with volume level is about half way.

But when I used it with my Montage the volume level almost Max but the sounds are still low and i don't feel like it, How can I boost up the sound level for headphone on Montage?

Any low impedance headphones should be fine... Be careful with headphone volume - your ears are attached...

The OUTPUT of the MONTAGE can be changed for the Main L&R (which will affect the Phones as well) by doing the following:

Press [UTILITY]
Touch "Settings" > "Audio I/O"
Set Main L&R = +6dB

FWIW: I love using my Sony MDR-ZX770BT Bluetooth headphones (I have both over-ear and on-ear versions) with my MacBook or iPhone to listen to Pandora or YouTube—their built-in rechargeable batteries last forever and they're uber-convenient and super-comfortable to wear. Plus, they sound pretty good for casual listening and were pretty affordable (I bought them as factory refurbs: $53, $36, respectively).

But I noticed that with BT active on my Core i7 8GB/500GB MacBook Pro, Apple Logic Pro X exhibits significant latency (i.e., when pressing keys on my Nektar MIDI controller) to the point of being unusable. For audio-monitoring while recording, I've been using my Sony MDR-7506 corded-headphones—plenty of volume, flat-response, comfortable, and not too heavy. (Note that while the MDR-7506s are the industry-standard headphone for broadcast audio and film recordists, I'm not quite sure if it's necessarily the best choice for studio-monitoring in music production.)

The key is real-time audio vs. time-delayed audio. Things like youtube, radio, etc. can be time delayed because they do not have to sync with anything that is happening "now" - like movement of your hands. Even though you may be fooled what you're listening to is happening "now" -- if it's wireless -- and it's lining up -- then the wireless sound and video (if that's what is lining up) has been shifted so video doesn't come out "now" -- but shifted to match the audio. You don't care about this shift -- even though it's there -- because you just care about the video lining up. However, your hands touching keys cannot be easily time-shifted like youtube and the like.

At some point perhaps true "zero latency" wireless will present itself -- or perhaps it's here. Generally, for prices people are willing to pay to remove clutter - wireless isn't going to "cut it".

Hi from Spain.
I know how good it is using wireless headsets while playing, and after much trying I was committed to forget about bluetooth ones.
There are wireless headsets that use FM radio instead of bluetooth and, at least in the ones I bought from Philips (SHC8525,with three channels), no lag is felt at all ,and it is been so since 1996, when I bought a Yamaha CVP96 which is still giving much enterteinment...You see...2019 and still on FLOPPY DISKS AND FM RADIO.:D 😀 😀 😀
But be quick: as time passes by, thery are dissappearing from the storeshelves. https://www.philips.es/c-p/SHC8800_12/auriculares-inalambricos-para-tv#see-all-benefits.
Also from Sony....Look for tv headsets, most are RF FM.
https://www.amazon.com/s/s/ref=sr_nr_p_n_feature_four_bro_0?fst=as%3Aoff&rh=n%3A172541%2Ck%3Atv+headsets%2Cp_n_feature_four_browse-bin%3A12097502011&keywords=tv+headsets&ie=UTF8&qid=1547152043&rnid=12097500011

https://www.headphonesunboxed.com/best-wireless-headphones-for-tv/

https://wirelessheadphones.com/sennheiser-rs185-review/

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/sennheiser-rs-185-headphone

https://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2486845,00.asp

On the "con" side - wireless headphones require a (likely) small receiver that plugs into the audio port - so it's another "thing" to keep track of or misplace. Also, bluetooth takes power - so you need to remember to keep the headset charged and also deal with a limitation of charge time. In addition, there's some amount of ongoing research as to the safety of bluetooth headsets. Currently the guidance is that it's "safe" although not without contrary research. Of course latency is something to deal with although this is something easy to determine if the latency story works for you immediately.

When I reach the end of the "rope" with wired headphones, I take them off my head and set them down. Actually, I take them off instinctively before moving most of the time.