[quotePost id=116502]Unless people are willing to pay more just to have a somewhat lesser learning curve and cooler screen dynamics, etc., I would think anyone on a budget that cares more about the sound quality & functionality of what they can make the Synth sound like, may outweigh the need for the newer look of Fantom-0.[/quotePost]
The Fantom-0 series offers more "hardware in the box" than MODX, so the higher price is justified, IMO, in pure hardware terms: more sliders/knobs, much better specced audio interface, more audio outputs.

Apart from that, it depends on the buyer.

For me there is zero interest in the Fantom-0 and in the "Roland sound" in general and based on what I've seen online (no hands on experience), the MODX washes the floor with the Fantom-0 as a synth. The MODX is superior in synth features, modulations, effects and pretty much anything that's musically important. It's also superior in DAW integration and 3rd party software tools availability, both a lot more important for me than useless onboard sequencers and samplers.
(I also don't buy the BS with it being hard to use. The MODX has been my first hardware synth and I managed learning it just fine).
So today, I'd buy the MODX again, no question.
Still, I do find quite a big design blunder that an 8-op FM synth doesn't have 8 knobs and 8 sliders that are vital to its operation.

Of course, if someone wants VA and hates FM, things are different.
Same goes for members of the DAWless religion, fans of Roland and their sound, people whose idea of fun is sampling into a keyboard with an undersized screen etc. Those people exist and are better served by the Fantom-0. From that POV, I do think Yamaha would have been better by keeping sampling functionality, even if it would be barely used.

[quotePost id=116503]The Fantom-0 series offers more "hardware in the box" than MODX, so the higher price is justified, IMO, in pure hardware terms: more sliders/knobs, much better specced audio interface, more audio outputs.

Apart from that, it depends on the buyer.

For me there is zero interest in the Fantom-0 and in the "Roland sound" in general and based on what I've seen online (no hands on experience), the MODX washes the floor with the Fantom-0 as a synth. The MODX is superior in synth features, modulations, effects and pretty much anything that's musically important. It's also superior in DAW integration and 3rd party software tools availability, both a lot more important for me than useless onboard sequencers and samplers.
(I also don't buy the BS with it being hard to use. The MODX has been my first hardware synth and I managed learning it just fine).
So today, I'd buy the MODX again, no question.
Still, I do find quite a big design blunder that an 8-op FM synth doesn't have 8 knobs and 8 sliders that are vital to its operation.

Of course, if someone wants VA and hates FM, things are different.
Same goes for members of the DAWless religion, fans of Roland and their sound, people whose idea of fun is sampling into a keyboard with an undersized screen etc. Those people exist and are better served by the Fantom-0. From that POV, I do think Yamaha would have been better by keeping sampling functionality, even if it would be barely used.[/quotePost]

Fantom-0 does appear to have more hardware OotB. Regarding the audio interface, if you're using the USB connection (not audio jacks) to record the audio digitally, you basically have the same quality as the Montage...awesome quality. Not sure if the Fantom-0 offers that option for near perfect recording quality..!?

I don't care for the onboard sequencer either, but I can see that others would be that have never used a DAW or just prefer to have it all done on the synth. I was also perfectly fine with them adding the sequencer that they did in the previous major OS release, and would be fine if they decide to enhance &/or add a second one. The better the MODX does (& to a lesser extent the Montage) in terms of sales and providing musicians/producers/studios with the tools they want to have/use, the longer they will continue to ride the OS update train, thus the most potential for continued OS updates for a longer period of time.

Regarding the 8-op FM knobs and sliders, I don't know about the MODX, but the Montage allows me to use the 8 sliders for levels (I don't really need the knobs as the sliders take care of that for me), and more importantly, I always use the bottom 2 rows of eight buttons (bottom 16) on the right side for (a) selecting & (b) muting the 8 operators of an FM-X PART...I think I would be lost programming FM-X without the right side buttons on the MODX...it's so convenient and saves so much time, not having to touch the screen as much when making adjustments, or just listening to various operators. I would classify it as vital to operations/programming, and the Montage has it.

Regarding sampling, I totally agree that the DAW &/or other tools on a computer that allow you to sample & modify a waveform, including SampleRobot Montage Edition, is far superior to any onboard sampler, but at the same time I would be ok if Yamaha decided to add an onboard sampler. Who knows, it might be in their roadmap and they haven't decided to work on providing that functionality to owners/potential buyers yet..!?

Oh, I just remembered to add to the list this one:
- An Undo/Redo - Back/Forward button for when you want to undo a change that you made.

Several times as I've programmed/tweaked a Performance, a PART, Element, Operators, Effect, setting, and hit a wrong button, slider, knob or something, messing up what I was doing, but forgot how I had it set...having a button at the top or somewhere on the screen (&/or buttons on the board) that would allow me to get back to where I once belonged lol...back to last way I had it set while programming (maybe save the last 3 to 5 changes!?), would be so helpful and convenient!

[quotePost id=116505]Fantom-0 does appear to have more hardware OotB. Regarding the audio interface, if you're using the USB connection (not audio jacks) to record the audio digitally, you basically have the same quality as the Montage...awesome quality. Not sure if the Fantom-0 offers that option for near perfect recording quality..!?[/quotePost]
It does.
The MODX has a way lower specs audio interface compared to the Montage (only 44.1/24 sample rate for 10 channels).
The Fantom-0 has better specs from what I read.

[quotePost id=116505]Regarding the 8-op FM knobs and sliders, I don't know about the MODX, but the Montage allows me to use the 8 sliders for levels (I don't really need the knobs as the sliders take care of that for me), and more importantly, I always use the bottom 2 rows of eight buttons (bottom 16) on the right side for (a) selecting & (b) muting the 8 operators of an FM-X PART...I think I would be lost programming FM-X without the right side buttons on the MODX...it's so convenient and saves so much time, not having to touch the screen as much when making adjustments, or just listening to various operators. I would classify it as vital to operations/programming, and the Montage has it.[/quotePost]
The MODX has 4 sliders in two banks for a total of 8. Which means you can't adjust op 3 and 5 at the same time, for example.
I think I agree with you about the buttons on the right side, I like to use buttons a lot and this UX feature is one of the main reasons for being tempted to upgrade to a Montage.
But as a hobbyist and beginner musician, it is practically impossible to justify the cost (even though I somehow managed to recoup the MODX investment by putting it to work on some productions in my animation studio 🙂 )

The MODX has a way lower specs audio interface compared to the Montage (only 44.1/24 sample rate for 10 channels).
The Fantom-0 has better specs from what I read.

For playing live, I'm not sure that the difference in audio quality would be noticeable enough to care &/or justify the additional expense..!? I've watched several videos comparing the Montage & MODX, whereby they used audio cables, and yes I could hear the difference, but it wasn't nearly enough to notice for when playing live gigs to justify the quality/price. As soon as you start playing a piano sound live through speakers (and piano seams to be the only instrument that is greatly affected that I've found), the quality of the speakers themselves becomes the single biggest sound quality issue. They can easily make a piano sound super boxy, tinny, harsh mids, etc., or in contrast, with the right (expensive high quality) speakers, it can sound quite awesome... With medium to lower quality speakers, getting rid of the boxy or tinny or harshness of a piano (that usually sounds awesome through headphones) using EQ, can only do so much.

And for the studio, I don't even use the super high quality audio outputs on the Montage, because the USB connection recording audio into Pro Tools digitally, is basically a perfect quality recording, so if I was recording something using a MODX, I would be going in via USB cable anyway.

[quotePost id=116508]And for the studio, I don't even use the super high quality audio outputs on the Montage, because the USB connection recording audio into Pro Tools digitally, is basically a perfect quality recording, so if I was recording something using a MODX, I would be going in via USB cable anyway.[/quotePost]
It's the USB connection I was talking about. I don't think there is any superior sound quality in the Fantom-0 when it comes to main analog outs.
MODX has an audio interface (that is, digital audio over USB) that features less channels than the Montage (10 vs 32). Also, the Montage allow you to record fewer channels at higher sample rate.
The Fantom-0 audio interface (digital audio over USB) has more channels and better quality than the MODX. It's technically superior and for studio work I'd say this matters, even if only for the convenience of using industry standard sample rates (48/24).

[quotePost id=116509]
It's the USB connection I was talking about.
MODX has an audio interface (that is, digital audio over USB) that features less channels than the Montage (10 vs 32). Also, the Montage allow you to record fewer channels at higher sample rate.
The Fantom-0 audio interface (digital audio over USB) has more channels and better quality than the MODX. It's technically superior and for studio work I'd say this matters, even if only for the convenience of using industry standard sample rates (48/24).[/quotePost]
Ah ok, I didn't realize that the MODX had less quality via the USB cable...

So, I would venture to say that if someone is looking for a Synth to play with for live gigs, the MODX may be the better option over the Fantom-0, just based on price & weight. If it's primarily studio, then that may or may not give the Fantom-0 the edge, as that's where it becomes a balance of an individuals most important criteria for what specs they want their new synth to have. For many, the MODX and Fantom-0 may be virtually a stalemate in deciding which to chose, based on the pluses & minuses of each, and it could come down to price if their budget is a factor. And even if the the Fantom-0 has a better quality internal audio for recording via DAW, they may take into consideration the quality of the sounds that the MODX has + the effects, and decide that overall the MODX 'sounds' better for recording. If you listen to this comparison between the high quality Montage and MODX, there is not that much audible difference, and part of it is that the MODX8 is not triggering the velocities in the lower keys properly, especially for pianos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ob4o2xEH6Y

[quotePost id=116510]And even if the the Fantom-0 has a better quality internal audio for recording via DAW, they may take into consideration the quality of the sounds that the MODX has + the effects, and decide that overall the MODX 'sounds' better for recording.[/quotePost]
I completely agree.
I also appreciate that the competition in this price range has heated.

And to answer your post at the start of this thread, I personally wish for "more of the same" rather than radical new additions.
I'm very skeptical of new engines, but I would like to see improvements to the existing ones.
Also incremental improvements to the modulation engine/matrix.

The most important to me would be improvements in the integration with the DAW. IMO, having close integration with the DAW sequencer would be a lot better than adding features to the onboard sequencer.
Making MODX Connect fully bidirectional so MIDI from the DAW can be directly transferred to the MODX would be a huge workflow boost and make Montage/MODX's studio integration a lot better.

Most of those I already put on Ideascale:

Audio interface enhancements:
https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/287941
https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/287168

Modulation enhancements:
https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/284888
https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/284886
https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/284884

MODX Connect/DAW integration:
https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/283287
https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/287957
https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/283816

UX enhancements regarding the pattern seq workflow:
https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/286427

[quotePost id=116519]
And to answer your post at the start of this thread, I personally wish for "more of the same" rather than radical new additions.
I'm very skeptical of new engines, but I would like to see improvements to the existing ones.
Also incremental improvements to the modulation engine/matrix.

The most important to me would be improvements in the integration with the DAW. IMO, having close integration with the DAW sequencer would be a lot better than adding features to the onboard sequencer.
Making MODX Connect fully bidirectional so MIDI from the DAW can be directly transferred to the MODX would be a huge workflow boost and make Montage/MODX's studio integration a lot better.

Most of those I already put on Ideascale:
[/quotePost]

I too would prefer if Yamaha used their resources/time/effort and stuck to improving the existing engines & functionality over new engines; however at the same time I don't mind if they carefully add a new engine, mainly because I think that a new engine will make the Montage/MODX more competitive, thereby potentially increasing sales and hopefully prolonging the life of both synths! The onboard sequencer they added in OS update 3.0/2.0 most likely impacted sales in a positive way. As long as radical new additions don't destabilize the current system. So far with the add Sequencer and FM Morph, they seem to have integrated fairly well without introducing bugs into the core functionality.

Very well laid out list of Ideascale ideas you have there! I had up voted several in the past, but have just up voted the ones I missed, as they are all good ideas that should be considered, especially DAW integration as I am all for that & anything that might improve workflows! 😉

Sadly, we must reconcile and temper our hopes with a little Yamaha Way insight:

Bad Mister was not encouraged to, nor given the resources to find, groom, guide and mentor, and then introduce and set the scene for a replacement - of himself.

Think about how unique Bad Mister is (sadly, now "was" is the correct tense) in terms of holding up and filling holes in the Yamaha Way, and how obvious it is that he's about the only person who could have replaced himself, and how long Yamaha would have known this.

Imagine, for a moment, the kind of talented and dedicated person Bad Mister might have chosen, and how much he could have helped them to "stand on the shoulders of a giant", and become a next gen version of himself, and how well he would have passed the baton.

Yamaha know this about him, more and better than we do. Yet they didn't make it happen.

[quotePost id=116548]Sadly, we must reconcile and temper our hopes with a little Yamaha Way insight:

Bad Mister was not encouraged to, nor given the resources to find, groom, guide and mentor, and then introduce and set the scene for a replacement - of himself.

Think about how unique Bad Mister is (sadly, now "was" is the correct tense) in terms of holding up and filling holes in the Yamaha Way, and how obvious it is that he's about the only person who could have replaced himself, and how long Yamaha would have known this.

Imagine, for a moment, the kind of talented and dedicated person Bad Mister might have chosen, and how much he could have helped them to "stand on the shoulders of a giant", and become a next gen version of himself, and how well he would have passed the baton.

Yamaha know this about him, more and better than we do. Yet they didn't make it happen.

[/quotePost]
Did BM retire? 😮

[/quotePost]
Did BM retire? 😮 [/quotePost]

Yes.

And Suzuki is quitting MotoGP.

Not sure which is more significant for Yamaha.

[quotePost id=116564]

Did BM retire? 😮

Yes.[/quotePost]
Sad to see him go, but good for him! Thanks for all you've done BM!

We just need a new Montage successor... period.

One with (at the very least):

256 polyphony - real usable polyphony (not 128+128, etc.)
More, and faster, memory - 1.8 GB is way too low nowadays
Newer/"Better" sounds/voices - like the Genos with DSP and S.Art voices, etc.
More engines, more power.
Large and brighter display - like the Genos but brighter.

The Montage is over 6 1/2 years "old" now - the longest Yamaha synth model since Yamaha started making synths back in 1974.

[quotePost id=116567][quotePost id=116564]

Did BM retire? 😮

Yes.[/quotePost]
Sad to see him go, but good for him! Thanks for all you've done BM![/quotePost]

Huge loss to the Yamaha community.

But, as you said, good for him.