Hi Jan-Friedrich

Did I miss parameters or is this an issue Yamaha is working on?

You must have missed parameter settings.

MIDI works the same as it did back in the DX7 days... Worked then, still works now. Same MIDI, same rules. Nothing has changed that would require something extraordinary be done.

We'll attempt to get some one with working knowledge of Logic to post a document with steps to setup your DAW. Sometimes finding the basic setup parameters can be tricky - not to worry. Rest assured it is something you've missed (no there is nothing major that has to changed in your DAW, your Keyboard, or with the MIDI spec.

Jan-Friedrich wrote:
...Did I miss parameters or is this an issue Yamaha is working on? This function is essential for the Montage to make sense in a studio, where knob movement expressions have to be recorded and edited and played back.

After using my Montage for about a month and reading/rereading the 500+ pages of documentation, I'm finding the Montage to be a fantastic machine. One shortcoming as you pointed it out is the difficulting in editing Super Knob movements. Yes I can record/playback the Super Knob Sysex messages, but I don't know of any easy/practical way to edit them to optimize the sound. (Yes I'm the musician and the Audio Engineer)

Since all my playing is in my home to record songs for people who used to come hear my band, friends, relatives.and anyone else willing to listen 🙂 with no live performances, I try to make my performances error free. (Hey I'm 71 and I occasionally make mistakes).

I developed a simple method of controlling the Super Knob with my DAW's Continuous Controller messages and it works great. I can draw in a profile in the CC lane to get the Super Knob movements/ positions just right for the passage and easily edit it if needed. I can use any MIDI channel, Port, or 30 different CC#.

I will post a video demonstration when I get a round tuit.

Walt

Another method would be to involve yourself in the sound itself (after all this is a synthesizer). Depending on exactly the behavior you think needs to be edited, you can scale the response of all assigned parameters to an uncannily deep degree. Mapping the Super Knob gesture as a basic 0-127 movement - sure, why not? That can be useful...

But when you start digging into what the Super Knob is actually changing, getting into the 'how much', and in what direction is the Super Knob causing a particular parameter to change. And then getting in there and editing that; that's what this synthesizer is all about.

Say the gesture of turning the Super Knob from 0 to 127 causes a filter sweep and a portion of the sound to simultaneously pan from far left to far right and back... But you want to slow the filter sweep 50% and have the pan move the sweeping Elements right to left and stay there - all with the single gesture of 0-127.

See, editing the synth engine's response to controllers is done in the synth engine. You can automate this movement, create your own control Curves, or choose from preset shapes, you can sync the movement to Arps, to external beats, MIDI clock, other Parts...

The Super Knob is automatically linked to controlling the "Common" upper level 8 Knobs.
Then down in each Part, you have 8 Assign Knobs per Part, each of which can be assigned and controlled directly, or can be assigned and linked to the movement of the Super Knob upper level. It's like a programmable set of gears, belts, and pulleys.

If you have a parameter you want to turn down, you can program one of the upper level knobs to go in reverse. Then each parameter Part you want to reduce or have contrary motion, you can link to that upper level Knob. It's not really alien technology, but it's very cool. You can, on a per parameter basis, scale just 'how far' the specific change will be, and you can control the curve of how it gets applied!

The editing of controllers you used to do in the DAW, is now front loaded, and takes place pre-record... It takes place in the synth engine. Yes you still may need/want a way to edit the basic 0-127 movement of the Super Knob, but certainly, you'll also want to at least look down the rabbit hole of sound designing. It's rewarding and you always find new things to try.

One will be like the broad brush stroke, the other is doing all the fine little details.

Bad Mister wrote:

Another method would be to involve yourself in the sound itself (after all this is a synthesizer). Depending on exactly the behavior you think needs to be edited, you can scale the response of all assigned parameters to an uncannily deep degree. Mapping the Super Knob gesture as a basic 0-127 movement - sure, why not? That can be useful...

But when you start digging into what the Super Knob is actually changing, getting into the 'how much', and in what direction is the Super Knob causing a particular parameter to change. And then getting in there and editing that; that's what this synthesizer is all about.

Say the gesture of turning the Super Knob from 0 to 127 causes a filter sweep and a portion of the sound to simultaneously pan from far left to far right and back... But you want to slow the filter sweep 50% and have the pan move the sweeping Elements right to left and stay there - all with the single gesture of 0-127.

See, editing the synth engine's response to controllers is done in the synth engine. You can automate this movement, create your own control Curves, or choose from preset shapes, you can sync the movement to Arps, to external beats, MIDI clock, other Parts...

The Super Knob is automatically linked to controlling the "Common" upper level 8 Knobs.
Then down in each Part, you have 8 Assign Knobs per Part, each of which can be assigned and controlled directly, or can be assigned and linked to the movement of the Super Knob upper level. It's like a programmable set of gears, belts, and pulleys.

If you have a parameter you want to turn down, you can program one of the upper level knobs to go in reverse. Then each parameter Part you want to reduce or have contrary motion, you can link to that upper level Knob. It's not really alien technology, but it's very cool. You can, on a per parameter basis, scale just 'how far' the specific change will be, and you can control the curve of how it gets applied!

The editing of controllers you used to do in the DAW, is now front loaded, and takes place pre-record... It takes place in the synth engine. Yes you still may need/want a way to edit the basic 0-127 movement of the Super Knob, but certainly, you'll also want to at least look down the rabbit hole of sound designing. It's rewarding and you always find new things to try.

One will be like the broad brush stroke, the other is doing all the fine little details.

Phil,

I understand and agree with you about the power and all the little details associated with the Montage. When my wife walks into my "Play Pen", and see me smiling playing the Montage she says "it must be very powerful"!

Coming up with a scheme to Control the Super Knob with MIDI CCs was easy for me. Reading the manual gave me for clues on how to do it. I wanted to first control some of the preset sounds and then eventually tweak parameters. I am presently going through every menu and every parameter so I understand what's in the "Rabbit Hole". One could be overwhelmed with all of the almost infinite variations in sound parameters, but I'm lovin it!

I'm no stranger to manuals. Attached is a photo of my Office/Lab. For each piece of Lab equipment I read all the manuals and also how to control them with GPIB (MIDI equivalent for test equipment) to perform automated testing of circuits by writing C code.

Walt

Thank you for your replies. But my question is yet to be answered. The DAW is willing to recognize SysEx: This would appear in the MIDI In window. I can program synthesizers in depth, I am loving it. But still, Montage seems not to send SysEx when I move knobs, and it should. These data could be easily automatized in Logic, as with every other synth.

Jan-Friedrich wrote:

Thank you for your replies. But my question is yet to be answered. The DAW is willing to recognize SysEx: This would appear in the MIDI In window. I can program synthesizers in depth, I am loving it. But still, Montage seems not to send SysEx when I move knobs, and it should. These data could be easily automatized in Logic, as with every other synth.

Jan,

Bad Mister stated that he would try to find someone knowledgeble with Logic in order to help you set up your DAW so that you can record/play back sysex messages and he's normally very good at responding to issues. I run Sonar and it works fine reading Sysex messages for recording/playing. You can play a song and it will happily record/playback the super knob positions.

The bad news though is that Sysex control of the Super Knob will not fufill your need (or mine and others) to edit the time and positions of the knob to optimize the sound for a permanent recording since Sysex messages cannot be easily edited like CCs can. That was impetus for my custom solution. The rep at Sweetwater where I bought the Montage did state that Yamaha engineers "might" be coming up with a firmware change. Meanwhile I have a solution that works perfect for me.

Walt

Thank you for your input, Walt, I also appreciate Bad Mister's help very much.

I have a solution that works for me in Logic Pro X.

How to record the 8 rotary encoders and the super knob in Logic Pro:

• Set the Montage to Settings > Quick Setup > Standalone (!)
• Set the Montage to Settings > MIDI I/O > Local Control "Off" (!)
• In Logic, create a multi instrument track and assign it to Yamaha Montage Port 1.
• Open the environment and there do the following:
• Create Physical Input
• Cable all MIDI In ports to a Monitor object in order to recognize the data Montage is sending
• Cable Monitor to the Sequencer Input. This is identical to Logics default status. Montage will not yet react to its own rotaries.
• Now the clue: Cable the monitor object also to the Montage Multi Instrument (Environment Object) Input, so that the sequencer input and the Montage receive the incoming MIDI data of the Montage controllers in parallel.

Montage's rotary movements will now be recorded to the Multi Instrument Track and be played back and be ready for editing in Logic Pro.

This will also record Montage's Arpeggiator.
Have a stereo Audio track record ready with Montage Port 1 Audio Input (1-2) in parallel.
The setting works with using Montage as the Macintosh's Audio In hardware and another Audio Interface as the audio out hardware.

Logic Pro is not any different from any DAW you connect to Montage. Although the exact steps differ between DAW, the features and functions are similar. Again, I'll mention we'll post an official step-by-step guide.

We can help you on the Montage side of things where the setup is completely known and documented.

Standalone - is for when you are using the Montage without a computer. The name indicates this clearly.

MIDI REC on DAW - is also self explanatory. If you look closely at the routing, it looks just like Standalone, except that LOCAL CONTROL = OFF. This means key presses, controller movements (including the Knobs) are routed OUT via MIDI and prevented from triggering the local tone generator. It is the responsibility of the user (you) to create the appropriate situation in your DAW to receive and echo this signal back to the Montage tone engine on "Port 1". This usually requires an active MIDI Track set to receive and echo OUT data on Montage Port 1.

Looking at the signal flow chart you can see the location of the Arpeggiator in this scenario. So to answer the question... Will this record the arpeggio data, the answer is NO. A small adjustment to the signal flow will accommodate arp record:

ARP REC on DAW - Recording the arpeggio requires this signal flow template. Your key presses on Parts with active Arps are filtered so that only the notes generated by the arp phrase is output, however Parts you are playing directly do get output and are echoed back. Notes sent by the arpeggiators do not retrigger the arp a second time, but instead trigger the tone generator.

So this difference is critical. There are two separate setups in Montage for MIDI record. One where you are generating the music data (normal play), and one for when one or more of the 8 Arpeggiators is generating some of the music data. And of course, a separate record for simply routing Audio data to your DAW.

Editing controller data, you will discover - is mostly handled at the source (in Montage). The MIDI control data you record from Montage is often multi-destination data. You'll find that editing is a "synth programming" function more than it is a "DAW editing" feature. Your mileage will vary.

The bad news though is that Sysex control of the Super Knob will not fufill your need (or mine and others) to edit the time and positions of the knob to optimize the sound for a permanent recording since Sysex messages cannot be easily edited like CCs can. That was impetus for my custom solution. The rep at Sweetwater where I bought the Montage did state that Yamaha engineers "might" be coming up with a firmware change. Meanwhile I have a solution that works perfect for me.

Those who perhaps don't fully understand the Super Knob might be holding out hope for some form of firmware update, but it's not broken. It does not require fixing... Just some explaining. If you get time and are curios please read the Programming Basics series in the Resources area here on YamahaSynth, to get a clearer idea of the difference between Parameter Change and Control Change messages.

Basically, when you setup controllers in Montage, you can opt to select a parameter, set the value that will be initially recalled, you can set a min-max range and a direction you wish to manipulate that parameter; you can even create a customized application Curve for its movement; this can be assigned to one of the Part's AssignKnob 1-8, finally, you can opt to link (or not) the Part's AssignKnob to the movement of the Super Knob.

Recognize that the Super Knob could be doing as many as sixteen different destination assignments, which could then be farmed out to do multiple things in individual Parts, as many as 8 individual Parts.

So while before you record something, you think: "I'm going to edit the Super Knob...". Only to discover, you didn't see this bigger picture. You really want to edit the synth. And that where Montage shines!!!! The Super Knob is a macro controller, if you linked Element Pan to it, you have the ability to pan individual Parts simultaneously in different directions (unlike with cc010), heck, you could pan individual Elements within each Part in different directions. Stuff you can't possibly do with Control Change messages.

(I used panning as an example, but it goes way deeper than that... There are some 251 possible parameter destinations... There aren't even that many cc numbers)!!!

You'll see. If we can help, let us know.

Thank you very much indeed for the explanations. I already had understood the function of assignable rotaries and the Super Knob as a macro controller for assignable controllers, and I am well aware of the differences between CC and SysEx and the direct adressing of synth parameters. The Montage happens to be well preset with a vast number of beautiful presets with well-designed assignments of 8+1 rotaries assigned for the given preset. Playing around with the instrument, you do just that. So it is natural to just want to record those movements. In the Sysex enabled modes of Logic and the MIDI- and ARP Rec on DAW modes, these data will not be resent to the Montage sound engine, so they won´t react. Patching them from the physical input to the to the Logic Instrument in parallel fixes just that.

I also like to sound-design and to program, I actually do that since 1984 with my DX7 and their derivates, and I know Logic since 1.0. Nonetheless, recording what you are doing live on the instrument, is cool and easy to do as well.

I appreciate your upcoming step-by-step-guide covering this issue.

So it is natural to just want to record those movements. In the Sysex enabled modes of Logic and the MIDI- and ARP Rec on DAW modes, these data will not be resent to the Montage sound engine, so they won´t react. Patching them from the physical input to the to the Logic Instrument in parallel fixes just that.

Ok, thanks for that. I know enough that each DAW is slightly different in how they configure. And one has to respect that. We have contacted a couple of Logic Pro folks who also are Montage experts, and hopefully we can get that guide, (with recommendations) on workflows, posted ASAP.

Glad you have a handle on the sysex (Parameter Change) thing.. As you can see from comments from Walter and even his sales rep, some people don't see this as a feature (quite yet)... I should mention, if one prefers not to link control to the Super Knob, parameters can be controlled in the way they are used to.. If one is used to just panning everything on the Midi channel, cc010 still works, and is available on a dedicated Knob.

The fact that you enjoy sound designing bodes well for your Montage experience. I have lost complete days in there 🙂

Enjoy!

Bad Mister wrote:So while before you record something, you think: "I'm going to edit the Super Knob...". Only to discover, you didn't see this bigger picture. You really want to edit the synth. And that where Montage shines!!!! The Super Knob is a macro controller, if you linked Element Pan to it, you have the ability to pan individual Parts simultaneously in different directions (unlike with cc010), heck, you could pan individual Elements within each Part in different directions. Stuff you can't possibly do with Control Change messages.

This is an interesting thread. There seems to be some confusion over what I am doing to control the sounds via the Super Knob. It is not my objective to control various Mantage parameters with Continuous Controler messages. As you stated elsewhere, there aren't that many CCs available. I realize that it is best to adjust the parameter values (ranges, waveforms, Unipolar vs Bipolar, etc) in the Montage and then control them all at once with the Super Knob just like you can by moving the Super Knob or moving the FC7 Foot Pedal. My scheme achieves the same result with only one CC in my DAW where I can then easily edit the Super Knob motion/position if needed.

I have to leave in a few minutes for Phoenix, but quickly reading today's posts, I not sure if Jan-Friedrich has been able to achieve this. Has he been able to control the Super Knob with a DAW's MIDI Continuos Controller messages? The Rep at Sweetwater said it couldn't be done, only with Sysex messages.

Walt

 

Hi Walt, the "control (Pedal) serving as a control of the controller (Super Knob) which controls the Rotary Controls which control synth parameters" is an important issue as well, since it allows a simple CC to Control a SysEx-based Rotary Knob. This is practical and important, since DAWs are nicer when it comes to editing CC curves rather than SysEx. I am sure I could handle that. My desire was very simple one—my apologies for that. If I can enjoy the realtime tweaking of those lovely presets, will also want my DAW to record, edit and playback what I play. And this inevitably desirable thing is what a "Montage connected to a DAW" refuses to do by default. The Quick Setup > "MIDI Rec on DAW" and the like exactly do not offer that. You will have to make the DAW return the Knob-commands back to the sound engine of the Montage in order to fulfill the simple-most demand: Rec, Edit and Play of whatever you touch on the instrument (like with every instruments where the hardware is sending some CC). I am looking forward to more elegant solutions than mine.

Sorry, we did get a bit off topic. My bad, there has just been a little confusion about the Super Knob and the Assignable Knobs, and the parameters they control. I was explaining something, that Walt already understood... It should totally be possible to control the movement of the super knob with cc... That, in fact, is very useful... The point I was making (unnecessarily) is it then controls the destinations as assigned/designed in the Part's Control set.

The original issue is echoing the Sysex generated by the Super Knob back to the Montage via Logic Pro.

What is curious is that if notes and other controllers are working but the Super Knob is not then it has to be some setting in the DAW. It is standard operating procedure to work with Local Control = Off with external hardware. The active MIDI Track is used to Thru the data to the tone generator. Sysex. It's just MIDI data and should travel the same route as the Note-On events and MW, PB, and FC1 (Expression) etc. So I'm assuming it is something with the way Logic Pro handles Sysex data. In Cubase, for example, it is necessary to unfilter the recording and passing through of Sysex messages. It defaults to filtering Sysex.

I believe it is something similar in Logic Pro, not a setting in the Montage that is holding you up.

Walter wrote: Attached is a photo of my Office/Lab.

Where's the Montage? 🙂