You can change the amount & direction an assignable knob moves when the superknob is moved. I'm not at my Montage ATM but perhaps if you set the start & end points to the same number for the assignable knob them the superknob won't affect it

Maybe this is a change in updated firmware.

With v1.02 - if I set the range to the same value - spinning superknob will "snap" to that value.

Assignable Knob 1
Low = 50
High = 50

Then I turn assignable knob to some other value - ex: 102.

When I turn the superknob, assignable knob 1 snaps to 50.

I tried L=0, H=0 and L=127, H=127 as well as a middle value just to make sure I was testing the corners as well as middle.

... as mentioned previously: this "snapping" action if set to the same value isn't necessarily bad to have as a feature. Say if you want spinning the superknob to set the voice back to some kind of "default" value to "clear out" manual settings when adjusting the assignable knobs individually.

But perhaps newer firmware values a way to unlink assignable knobs from superknobs more than this kind of feature and works as you have described. I'd prefer both options but I suppose the curve applied to a control can also make sure later firmware emulates the behavior of earlier firmware that does this snapping behavior.

Let me know what your board does with an assignable knob's superknob range set to 0 (H=L).

The problem is once you start using superknob - there's not a way to get an assignable knob detached from superknob. When superknob spins - all 8 assignable knobs will go through their travel between lowest and highest value (even if set to the same value).

This is not a true statement, so conclusions drawn from this will also be faulty.

We'll be happy to help you when you update your firmware. In the meantime, perhaps the Programming Basics series will straighten out some of your misconceptions.

Note that when I say "lowest" and "highest" - this refers to the setting of the low and high values - not the limits. The lowest value is what you set and the highest value is what you set - and the limits of these settings is between 0 and 127 - and either "low" can be smaller than "high" for forward direction or "low" can be bigger than "high" for reverse direction. Just clearing up a possible misunderstanding of my terms "lowest" and "highest".

Did later firmware allow a way for assignable knobs to completely ignore superknob? Answer: depends on the assignable knob. Common Assignable - no. All other assignable knobs - yes (since they are linked to the common ones or not).

Not against reading. I've referenced your articles to help others - maybe I missed something.

PROGRAMMING BASICS 1: THE SUPER KNOB

"Any or all of individual synth Part's eight Assignable Knobs can be linked, so that they, too, follow movement of the Super Knob (or not)."

Ok - sounds good - the (or not) part is what I'm trying to do.

Didn't catch where the link could be broken between an active assignable knob and super knob in this article. Checking later.

PROGRAMMING BASICS 2: SUPER KNOB COMMON

"We stated at the beginning, the Super Knob automatically controls the eight COMMON Assignable Knobs 1-8 and it works directly on those upper level/shared parameters."

I'm not using common assign knobs - but I imagine this statement applies to the various contexts of assignable knobs. This matches my understanding. Superknob automatically makes the assignable knobs travel from low to high value (aka upper and lower levels set). But the inference is that this can be unlinked. Reading on ...

PROGRAMMING BASICS 3: SUPER KNOB UNIPOLAR

"Translation: the first COMMON assignable destination (Destination 1) for this Performance concerns the program occupying PART 1. This assignment gives the Super Knob control over Part 1's Assignable Knob 1. "

This area is where the link can be made or severed. Which is fine, under part 1 (where I plan to "live" for adjusting the drawbars in "All 9 Bars!") - I can remove all assignable knobs under PART 1 from being controlled by the common assignable knobs. Okay - so those ignore superknob which is part of what I wanted.

Now - in this case - what I wanted to do is control PART 2's element 1 (9th drawbar) with superknob. I don't see there's a way to "target" another part's elements from this part -- which is fine. I'll move to PART 2 and set it up so nothing but the element 1 reacts to superknob (Some common assignable knob).

NOTE: It'd be "nice" if somehow we could split the assignable knobs from the faders meaning assignable knobs could control common while faders are at the elements within a part level. This would allow for multiple single knobs to control more than one parameter (not just superknob) -- but that's a nice-to-have. Let me keep going with the assignment (as in homework) here.

I already cleared out the link for part 2's assignable knobs - so moving the superknob also does not affect the part 2 assignable knobs - OK.

Just on to adding a part 2 assignable knob. "All 9 Bars!" part 2 doesn't have any unused assignable knobs - but knob 6 is not interesting since it sets levels of element 6 (which I won't be adjusting with a knob - fader is already fine) and element 7&8 both of which are not used elements anyways. So gone is Part2/Assignable 6 - delete delete delete - change to Element 1 level for the 9th drawbar (to be more clear - the element SW section change from 6 on 7 on 8 on to all of those off and now 1 on). The existing bi/normal curve type 5 w/slope of +63 is fine as-is. Spinning knob 6 makes the drawbar work full on to full off. OK

Back to Edit Common/Audio - since I need to make a link between the common assignable knob and the part 2 one I just adjusted. Control -> Control Assign. Auto detect is on, spinning all of the assignable knobs show there's no assignments since I previously cleared them out. This leaves the choice open - so I'll use common assignable knob 1 and add a mapping to part 2 assign 6. All of these steps to do the knob assignments are exactly as I did before when I tried with the previous posting - so this part is rehash what I already was doing before. I know this part works fine.

I did some adjustments of the Performance top-level common ranges of the assignable knob 1's ranges - so back to performance home and Motion Control->Super Knob to tidy that up. Set the "1" side (I call this "low" even though it can be a greater value than what I call "high". "High"-"low"<0 = reverse direction). Low=0, High=127. Spin the superknob and this is drawbar 9. No other parameters affected.

Using this method gets me to the finish line. What I was observing earlier was that there's no way to disassociate the common assignable knobs from super knob. This is a hard-code reality that does not limit what we can do - just how we do it.

So after a second RTFM - all is good.

Thanks for the nudge and not spoon feeding - I work best with a challenge.

Note that part of what I undid was that common assignable knob - I believe it was 4 - controlled the "overdrive" for both parts 1 and 2. It'd be great if I could retain that feature while controlling the elements 1-8 of part 1. but certainly this cannot be done since when in the Element/Operator mode - the assignable knobs cannot be common. And even if they could - super knob would have the issue of not being able to be unlinked from common assignable knobs so the distortion would be affected by superknob if I had a common assignable knob that controlled both parts' overdrive. I cannot at the moment come up with a creative workaround to make an assignable knob of one part follow the setting of another part's assignable knob. I think this is the case of we can't get there from here. The envelope follower trick won't work at this level for a few different reasons. There's nothing I can see to cross-pollinate from a part assignable knob of one part to another part's assignable knob. Only links to a common parent which does not work either for this use-case.

"Last" - still not upgrading firmware yet. Although lots of good stuff I want - I'm not "done" with the older firmware. It's not for lack of knowing how. Everything here and all hurdles are the same in all firmware versions. No need to sell me on the virtues of the new firmware - I agree. I'm trying to finish up with 1.02 - but it's going to be a little more while.

It is all in the blog about the assignable knobs that follows all the superknob lessons. Yes you can have the superknob control only certain parameters and assign others to the knobs to be unaffected by the superknob.

I've got the assignments down and one-less-than-everything working like I want it. The last part was - and this is specific to the "All 9 Bars!" modification I'm attempting - is that some limitations in choices are currently forcing me down a road where I cannot have 9 drawbar control and a knob which controls distortion simultaneously for both parts (both parts 1 and 2 have an assignable knob which controls distortion - by default there's a common assignable knob which links the two for a "master distortion" control).

Taking "All 9 Bars!" and saying I want these three goals:

1) 9th drawbar (which is part 2, element 1) controlled by some knob or other control on the keyboard while also having the faders 1-8 control the first 8 drawbars
2) Keep leslie control through some buttons/control
3) Keep a way to control distortion for both parts (1 and 2) which is InsB distortion drive and InsB level. Using some knob or control for this.

While in Element/Operator mode to control PART 1's drawbars 1-8, the assignable knobs are set to Part 1's assignable knobs. You cannot make the assignable knobs control the common knobs while in Element/Operator mode since this mode deals with one part at a time and makes the faders and knobs associate with the currently selected part. This limitation, in this case, doesn't matter since even if I could control the common assignable knobs while faders are controlling part 1's element levels - IF I assign superknob to do anything - this assignment will move ALL common assignable knobs - so (ignoring that you cannot have this mode to begin with - meaning element/operator faders + common assignable knobs) - in the thought experiment that you could - this would not help because if I wanted to make superknob control anything - it would also force me from using the common assignable knobs for independent use (meaning I want to spin superknob and NOT have it affect one or more common assignable knobs because I'm using those for something else which I would not want changed by superknob use).

... so getting there using common assignable knobs has two strikes - that's fine - have to find another way.

My 3 goals 1,2, and 3

1=superknob {9th drawbar}
2=mod wheel (default way "All 9 Bars!") {leslie}
3=?? not sure - a 2nd superknob would do it - but not available. {part1+2 distortion}

maybe

1=superknob
2=[ASSIGN 2]
3=mod wheel (make modwheel a control for both part 1 and 2 distortion parameters)

With the rotating speaker no longer controlled by mod wheel, I have to find another control for it. Unlike drawbar and distortion - I'd be OK with just slow and fast instead of having a range of movement.

This blows away using assign 2 from percussion on/off (this is the default for assign 2 for "All 9 Bars!") but that's less to lose relatively speaking - this is all subjective.

... the ribbon isn't assigned to anything - so I thought about using it as a rotating speaker speed or the distortion level. However, it "snaps back" to a default position when not pressing it. I didn't see a way to set ribbon control to remember (latch) the last position before lifting your finger. So ribbon was out as an assignment. *EDIT* - Not true, ribbon can be used. See https://yamahasynth.com/forum/fyi-ribbon-mode Using ribbon may be best for rotating speaker speed since a) it is not used and b) being able to press the ribbon in the high area for instant fast and low area for instant slow provides more of a half-moon switch type control while still retaining the ability to set to values between fast and slow. *End EDIT*

The "wish" would be

1) Make assignable knobs so they can forced to point to the common assignable knobs
1b) If this is done (like shift+[ASSIGN]) - then I suppose scrolling through so you can use assignable knobs point to a different part other than your currently selected part would be useful as well. Would prevent from having to use superknob, in this case, to control part 2's element 1 level for drawbar 9)
2) Allow common assignable knobs to be removed from superknob control (pick and choose)

Maybe a way to make a source in the part control edit screen be another part's assignable knob so one assignable knob can "follow" another part's knob for a different way of linking the controls together.

This (1&2 wishlist) would allow for up to 8 super-knob-JR (juniors) which can affect multiple parts' parameters that could selectively be controlled by superknob.

The mapping where [assign 2] is used for leslie and modwheel is used for distortion is OK and meets the high-level goals.

Just wanted to comment on that quote:

Jason wrote:
"Last" - still not upgrading firmware yet. Although lots of good stuff I want - I'm not "done" with the older firmware. It's not for lack of knowing how. Everything here and all hurdles are the same in all firmware versions. No need to sell me on the virtues of the new firmware - I agree. I'm trying to finish up with 1.02 - but it's going to be a little more while.

I think you should upgrade. First it is not all about new features, it is also about bug fixes. There were quite a few. So things you encounter and report here might be fixed already. Second, Yamaha added many great workflow things, which just simplify your live. Several things are not updates giving you big new features, but making your life just tremendously easier. For example the new copy functions and the performance merge mode. Third "finishing up with 1.02" will probably take a couple more years :-). Just my 2 cents.

Stefan,

I understand where you're coming from. I've been in the position of supporting/designing a product with firmware deliverables and dealing with customers who had their own internal reasons to be late adopters. For whatever they are trying to accomplish, the rationale makes sense for them and I would have, in that position, known about all the gory details of what they are giving up for not upgrading including fixes to corner cases that had not shown up in the "call center" as being real-world yet.

That said, it'd be less-than-constructive to spend valuable time trying to root cause some issue I've presented if it's already fixed and I get that.

However, at least this thread is just walking through some consequences of design decisions. There are always consequences - products do not have limitless flexibility. In the firmware thread - Yamaha was interested in learning how people used the product - so this is also feedback on use case along with editorial when I bump into a wall.

Ultimately, I did get to a working model of what I was trying to do at the expense of percussion on/off for the organ. Even distortion control could have been handled by a 2nd performance of "All 9 Bars!" + heavy distortion. That was more of walking through a more general case that once you tie superknob to control anything - you also lose using (independently) common assignable knobs which are the only other knob/dial which can control more than one part's parameters at a time outside of modwheel (I'm ignoring foot controllers). Due to the "return to 0" nature of pitchwheel and ribbon, I'm not counting those.

I could be wrong, but the observations here are not firmware related - but built-in to the framework. The understanding is based off of both documentation (manuals, articles) as well as observation which does agree with the documentation. This discussion is not a bug report.

I have a post about keyboard control quirks which is more of a "PSA" (public service announcement) to highlight some "fine print" in the manual which can lead to some confusion. BM appears to backup the functional description. No bug report - and not tied to firmware.

The article where I do believe there may be a bug is in how Pitch control is reset using motion sequence. This one maybe fixed in later firmware (or not). The response thus far was addressing how the keyboard works when motion sequence is in a mode where the bug does not occur - so a slight misunderstanding of the test setup. I've since updated that report to include full setup. That's the most likely candidate for something that is addressed in later firmware. I've planned to check another more up-to-date board. Generally I do this checking myself and thus far have always found observations on 1.02 match the latest firmware behavior.

Also, I'm fairly resilient to limitations. I'll work to find a work-around and will ultimately live within the confines of what Montage (or anything else) can do. Guess what I'm getting at is I keep a positive outlook even when I see something that doesn't see what I "wish" it could do.

Using envelope follower for A/D and only supplying a single 1/4" patch cable (nothing too "fancy" in terms of external add-ons) I was able to follow some advice I'd given elsewhere to use envelope follower A/D and use the A/D input gain knob as a "controller" through redirection.

Same advice as previous - use an FM-X part (#3 after "All 9 Bars!" two default parts), set to mono / single to prevent from a chord on FM-X from sounding louder than a single note. I set the output to assignable L&R so I could avoid having this sound out my main output. Assignable L I routed to A/D input in L (L=left) with a 1/4" (unbalanced) cable although for signal quality and noise rejection balanced would be better.

This FM-X voice did some editing to make the pitch such that volume was even from low to high notes. More time could be spent with this - but is good enough without much time spent. I also adjusted release/etc. for amplitude in order to make the sound create a constant drone which never goes away after the first key is pressed. This is my typical process using the envelope follower "trick".

Sent envelope follower A/D in mod control as fastest Attack+Release which is generally what I would do to get a fast response (tracking the knob) both on way up and way down. Set gain to something not too drastic as I saw high gain would cause some "bounce-back" when going from loud to soft around the knob=0 (full counter clockwise) position. For the application, even somewhat aggressive bouncing is not horrible - as I assign this control to distortion level which can be "noisy" during the transition as long as the control settles down quick enough after setting.

The source as Envelope Follower A/D - set the destination as InsB Output and InsB DstDrv which matches the existing "All 9 Bars!" assignable knob setting for overdrive.

Repeat for both parts 1 and 2 - so envelope follower (i.e. A/D input gain knob) controls two parts at once - like the assignable knob (common) does.

Advantages:

1) A/D input gain knob does not mode switch (like super knob does not mode switch) - so you get a "junior" superknob that control multiple parameters although it itself cannot be controlled like superknob can through knob automation. This is fine for what I'm trying to do. When I say mode - I mean Common mode vs. Part Mode for the assignable knobs for example.

2) A/D input gain knob is a setting that "saves" its position and does not reset its position like ribbon or pitch bend.

3) Vs. mod wheel - allows for mod wheel to keep its original assignment for rotating speaker speed. Although using assign 2 is not bad - I regain my assign 2 as percussion on/off.

Disadvantages:

1) One extra wire
2) Possible: Haven't seen if I can route this "trick" to only one channel and also allow using 2nd channel (A/D input) for vocoder. This was not a goal here - so I haven't explored this. Certainly this way of routing the external 1/4" is not compatible with a vocoder use - but one would think routing to the R channel instead of L and using a mic with an on/off switch for vocoder would work as long as the mic is OFF during organ control using the envelope follower.
3) In the general case - this "trick" only gains one more knob and won't work if either you're out of parts or if you need two knobs that will control more than 1 part's parameters. If you need a handful to do this kind of work - this is where the knob "routing" and modes (meaning which assignable knobs are available in various modes of the faders) does generate a limitation. I'm getting too much pushback on my thoughts of superknob interplay with common assignable knobs - I think I'll have to do a video demo to show what I mean there.

Following my previous list of goals and controls - I'm at:

1=superknob {9th drawbar}
2=mod wheel (default way "All 9 Bars!") {rotating speaker speed}
3=A/D input gain + envelope follow "trick" which includes adding a 3rd part of FM-X to generate the output which is followed {part1+2 distortion}

There's little loss to original controls since there were unused common assignable knobs to use for the 9th drawbar and a part 2 assignable knob that I did not mind losing. The new follower trick didn't present any limitation for this voice - just something to look out for if doing vocoder work (using A/D input for something else). I'll probably add vocoder down the line, but I'm not there yet.