Live Set doesn't have a "properties" button. It's pretty easy to send the live set MSB/LSB/PC - because there's only one MSB/LSB/PC range to deal with - and see which Performance gets selected. Select PC=0 then PC=16 and you'll see generally how that works then go from there.

On each live set page, there's 16 slots (arranged in a 4x4 grid). Slots numbered as:

1---2--3--4,
5---6--7--8,
9--10-11-12,
13-14-15-16

Each page has 16. You can calculate LSB for page and PC for position.

MSB=62, LSB=Page#-1 (page number, starting with 1, minus one), PC calculate: Slot#-1 (slot number in grid above, starting with 1, minus 1).

I'm not sure properties would be as useful for Live Set since it's relatively easier to deal with Live Set. Performances have different banks (Library vs. User Vs. Preset Vs. GM set) - so having Properties for Performances is more helpful, relatively speaking.

Jason - got it, thanks for the explanation. That will be easy to program.

OK - so it wasn't as easy as I thought...

Live set provides 8 banks locations, each with 8 pages
(USER1/Page1; USER1/Page2.....)
(USER2/Page1: USER2/Page2.....)

So
MSB/LSB/PC for USER1/Page1/Slot1 is 62/0/0
MSB/LSB/PC for USER1/Page12/Slot1 is 62/1/0

What is the MSB for USER2 Bank?

And

What are the MSB/LSB for the preset Live Sets

And

I have a couple of additional preset Live Sets that seems to have come over when I loaded some Libraries (Chick Corea & MONTAGE Fully Loaded) What are the MSB/LSB/PC for these. I cannot seem to find a map/guide.

Thanks - Mark .

There are banks in presets, library, and user areas. There isn't a mechanism to force the bank to change. You have to do that manually. The MSB/LSB/PC for live set will select a live set slot based on the currently selected bank. First select a different bank and issue the live set MSB/LSB/PC and see this at work.

Thanks Jason:
If I understand your answer,
I have created a USER1 Live Set Bank and have a piano sound in slot 1
I have created a USER2 Live Set Bank and have an organ sound in slot 1

If I send MIDI code of MSB/LSB/PC 62/0/0,
And I have the USER1 Bank active on the Montage, I get the piano and if I have the USER2 Bank active on the Montage, I get the organ.
There is no way to send a MIDI MSB/LSB/PC message to the Montage to change the bank.

Is this correct?

Live set provides 8 banks locations, each with 8 pages
(USER1/Page1; USER1/Page2.....)
(USER2/Page1: USER2/Page2.....)

So
MSB/LSB/PC for USER1/Page1/Slot1 is 62/0/0
MSB/LSB/PC for USER1/Page12/Slot1 is 62/1/0

What is the MSB for USER2 Bank?

The User LIVE SET provides 8 Banks, each Bank has 16 Pages, each Page has 16 slots.
Compared to the Preset LIVE SET which provides 1 Bank, the Bank has 16 Pages, each Page has 16 slots. That’s 256 Preset Live Set Programs.

If we think about the User Live Set as a Set list, then there are 256 steps in that list.
There are 8 such User set lists. Each has 256 steps. There will be 256 steps in the currently active Live Set.

I choose the words *currently active* because only one set list can be recalled at a time. If you recall the Factory Preset Live Set, this makes it the active Live Set. The first sound in that Live Set is “CFX + FM EP” - If you Select it on the Live Set screen, and then press HOME... you can use the Assign FS set to LIVE SET+ to move through the 256 Factory Live Set. You do not have to be on the Live Set screen... pressing the FS set to LIVE SET+ simply references your list and moves to the next program on the list (no matter what screen is showing).

If you go to [LIVE SET] and switch to Bank = User 1 and recall your first entry, then return to its HOME screen, the Assign FS (Live Set+) will now advance you through the User 1, Live Set and its 256 steps.

Each User Bank Live Set is a separate 256 step entity.

When a Performance is recalled in its HOME location, it has a Property listing (MSB/LSB) for its Bank location. Performances in their HOME location will have an MSB of 64.

That same Performance can be referenced by any of the 2,048 User Live Set locations and it can appear multiple times on any list. The User Live Set is just a Bank where you can place the Performances that you use in one convenient listing - in the order you need to access them. Once referenced by this Live Set listing it has another set of MSB/LSB that will recall it based on that Live Set location. It could have several... it depends on how many times it appears on the lists. It is the slot that has the MSB/LSB/PC — When you change your order simply place the Performance in the slot, it will take on the same info to recall it (this means if you are sending In MSB LSB you don’t have to change it there as well... the Performance you use fifth in your show will always have the same MSB/LSB/PC). If today is a particular piano, and tomorrow it’s an electric piano, simply STORE the electric piano to slot 5. It is designed as a list.

The active User Bank Live Set will have a maximum of 256 slots... so to answer your question. User Bank 2 and its Pages and slots will have the same MSB/LSB and PC... because only one set list (of 256 steps) can be *active* at any one time.

You know which Live Set is active - it’s the last one you’ve *selected*

This makes it easy to Access your sounds by simply advancing...and even rearrange your sounds. If you place your opening Performance in User Live Set Bank 1, Page 1, Slot 1... if tomorrow you change you mind about what Performance should open the show, simply replace it... [SHIFT] + [LIVE SET]. The MSB/LSB for the opening Performance will remain exactly the same.

Here are the 256 steps and their MSB/LSB... The PC is always the first 16 characters starting with 0
User Bank 1, Page 1 = 62/0 with PC 0-15
User Bank 1, Page 2 = 62/1 with PC 0-15
User Bank 1, Page 3 = 62/2 with PC 0-15
User Bank 1, Page 4 = 62/3 with PC 0-15
User Bank 1, Page 5 = 62/4 with PC 0-15
User Bank 1, Page 6 = 62/5 with PC 0-15
User Bank 1, Page 7 = 62/6 with PC 0-15
User Bank 1, Page 8 = 62/7 with PC 0-15
User Bank 1, Page 9 = 62/8 with PC 0-15
User Bank 1, Page 10 = 62/9 with PC 0-15
User Bank 1, Page 11 = 62/10 with PC 0-15
User Bank 1, Page 12 = 62/11 with PC 0-15
User Bank 1, Page 13 = 62/12 with PC 0-15
User Bank 1, Page 14 = 62/13 with PC 0-15
User Bank 1, Page 15 = 62/14 with PC 0-15
User Bank 1, Page 16 = 62/15 with PC 0-15

The key to understanding Live Sets is one Bank of 256 Performances can be active at a time.
User Bank 2 would use exactly the same MSB/LSB/PC, Because it would need to be active in order for its sounds to be on call.
User Bank 3 would also use the same MSB/LSB/PC...

Extra Credit:
When you create a LIBRARY, you are documenting the User Bank... all 640 Performance, and all 8 User Live Set Banks (each with 256 steps),
You can *activate* any of the Live Set Banks by *selecting* it. That’s a maximum of 72 Live Set Banks each with 256 steps each.

If you use more than 256 steps in a Set, you have outgrown this system. You would need to manually activate the second set of 256. You cannot advance from USER Bank 1, Page 16, slot 16 to USER Bank 2, Page 1, slot 1

Thank you Phil and Jason:

This started as project to essentially "mirror" my Montage over to a MODX. IN the process, I've learned a great deal about programming (data management) both instruments. Here is the next thing I need to understand.....

I loaded 8 libraries into my Montage.

I gathered a bunch of Performances from these libraries and created a Live Set, all in the same bank so that I can send program change messages during a gig and move through this Performances based on the song I'm playing (I have several keyboards in my stage rig. I use SetListMaker to send program change messages to each keyboard simultaneously as I move from song to song).

I've created some custom Performances and stored them in the User1 Bank.

So now comes the time to move everything over to the MODX and I get the error message that I've run out of Sample Memory on the MODX before I get all of the Libraries loaded. I understand. There is less memory in the MODX.

I now need to take the performances from the "stock" Libraries that I loaded into the Montage and pare down the Performances, keeping only those I really want/need. So l load a stock Library into the Montage, I review each performance and decide if I want to keep it. Those that I want to keep I save over to the User bank. I can pull Performances from multiple libraries and save them in the User bank. Once I've create my ideal selection of Performances in the User bank, I can save that User bank both as a User File and a Library File. I can then load that custom built library into both my Montage and my MODX.

Am I am track so far?

Assuming so, here are a couple of technical questions.

When I store a Performance into the User bank, is it storing all of the information (elements, waveforms...) that I need to generate the Performance?
As I store each Performance into the User Bank, Is there any way to determine how much sample memory I've used so that I do not create a user bank the still has inadequate sample member room in the MODX?

Does the Melas Librarian or Performance Editor help to make the process of creating a custom User bank more efficient - If yes - which is the better tool?

Once again - thank you.

When I store a Performance into the User bank, is it storing all of the information (elements, waveforms...) that I need to generate the Performance?

No, it is NOT... not always... In order for it to properly be moved you need to do more than just STORE the Library entry to the User Bank... you have to use “Library Import”.

What “Library Import” does that simply Storing the Performance does not, is it maintains the relationships with the Waveforms, the Arpeggios, the Motion Sequences, etc. and the Performance. If a Performance has a custom Waveform, using “Library Import” will repoint each Element to a copy which it moves to a User Bank Waveform location. If you simply [STORE] the Library Performance to the User Bank, the Waveforms that it uses remain in their Library locations, and when you finally Delete that Library the Performance will no longer sound it will have lost the relationship with its Waveform data.

Import not only puts the parameters in the User Bank, it copies the Waveform to the User Waveform memory.

Library Import makes a copy of the Waveform used and places it in the User Waveform area... this way when you make a new (streamlined) Library File... the Waveform will be included in that new Library. You can then Delete the old and install your newly streamlined Library.

__ if an installed Library Performance you wish to keep, has no custom Waveforms, does not use custom Arpeggios, or Motion Sequences, then just Storing it to User brings everything it needs. But to maintain the relationship with Waveform, Arps etc that are custom, you need to use “Library Import”.

And very importantly, you need to review and execute the IMPORT an entire Library at a time. The only way the technology can sort out and prevent Duplicates is if you do the “Library Import” in a single operation. Here’s what that means: Libraries like the Bosendorfer and the Chick Corea Mark V, have 16 Performances... that all use the same single set of Waveforms. If you Import each Bosendorfer sound you use one at a time, it will repeat copying the 400MB of Bosendorfer Waveforms EACH time.... but if you mark all of the ones you want to keep (in one operation), the technology will sort out that they all use the same Waveform set, and transfer the 400MB just once - it will proper repoint the AWM2 Elements to the single import of the Waveform data!

So go through each Library figure out which Performances you want to keep.
When you go to [UTILITY] > “Contents” > “Library Import” mark all Performances that you want to move, as mentioned, in one operation.

Reality: if you are using one Bosendorfer Performance it will take as much Waveform memory as all 16 Bosendorfer Performances.
When assembling data to the User area MONTAGE keeps track in the Data Utility folders.

Extra Credit:
When data exists in the User memory area, using “Library Import” does not overwrite other data in the User Bank... it is added to it. This is important to understand (especially for those that think 8 Libraries is not enough). You could combine the Bosendorfer and the Chick Corea data into a single Library (and still have 608 Performance locations empty). Each Library has a potential 640 Performance locations... feel free to combine you data as best works for you.
Each User Bank can contain:
640 Performances
256 Arpeggios
256 Motion Sequences
32 Curves
8 Banks of Live Set (256 in each)
2,048 Waveforms
8 Micro Tunings

A User Bank becomes an installable Library when go to [UTILITY] > “Contents” > “Store/Save” and set the “Content Type” = Library File
This takes what is currently in your MONTAGE User area and makes it an installable LIBRARY FILE .X7L

Does the Melas Librarian or Performance Editor help to make the process of creating a custom User bank more efficient - If yes - which is the better tool?

The John Melas “MONTAGE Waveform Editor” allows you to do all of this (much faster, and a bit more efficiently) It actually loads the Waveform data to your computer (which likely has far more RAM than the Synthesizer). This lets you assemble your data by simply dragging and dropping the Performance into a new Library screen... it automatically can sort out and find duplicates and remove them. It can maintain relationships, and in the end you wind up with a Library File you can just Load into your instrument. It also keeps track of total size.

Recommended: once you do this manually (and you can as I outlined earlier in the post) you’ll understand exactly what the Waveform Editor is doing, and you’ll really appreciate having more memory to work with. When juggling data with an almost filled MONTAGE Waveform ROM, Storing a copy in the User area can become problematic... you wind up creating a new streamline Library, then deleting the old... you may wind up not being able to restore all your Libraries until you finish all preparation (in other words) you may have to create your new Library Files... and then not be able to Load them all back in until you complete streamlining them all.

With the computer’s RAM you plenty of room to have both the originals and the copies all in front of you together, and since you are working offline in your computer... you simply can do things faster. And doing it offline (outside of the instrument) your result is a File you copy to a USB stick... then Load. Once you have the MONTAGE WAVEFORM EDITOR you’ll use it - and the fact that maintains the parent-child relationships between Waveforms and Elements, Performances and Arpeggios, etc, it’s a real useful tool for power users.
Oh and it works for MODX, too.

OK - I'm still at this.

I went through all of the library performances that I have accumulated and selected the ones I want to keep. In doing so, I organized them into libraries that use 640 slots or less. I also made sure that the total bytes of all of the libraries stayed under 1 Gig so that I could transfer them over to the MODX. This amounted to 3 library files. They all loaded into the MODX fine. The performances play fine. I loaded them in the order that I loaded them into my MONTAGE

Next, on my Montage, I created about a dozen custom performances, mostly layers and splits, in the User 1 performance bank. They were all based on the performances in the Montage preset and the 3 Libraries that I Loaded.

Next, on my Montage, I arranged a Live Set under the User1 bank to point to all the performances that I think I'll use on a regular basis. This was about 60 performances, all in User1 Bank. It included the custom performances that I created.

I "saved as" User to a memory stick,

My understanding is that storing as a User file should include all of the data that makes up my User performances (including waveforms) along with the User Live Set.
I load the User file into the MODX. My User performances are there, but the Live Set indicates “Cannot Find” for the User Performances that I created. I was under the impression that the Live Set would transfer between the MONTAGE and the MODX and maintain the pointers to the User Performances that I created.

Do I have this wrong?

Or did I do something wrong.

Here is what likely happened. When you get a Live Set location in the MODX reporting it ‘cannot find’ the data it is because the original Live Set in the MONTAGE was referencing an installed Library.

When you used “Library Import” to bring in the Performances, Waveforms and Arpeggio data from installed Libraries, that data is compiled in the User Performance Bank, the User Waveform List, and the User Arpeggio Phrase List. The way it compiles the data is to place it starting with the lowest numbered empty location.

Therefore, because the data now occupies a new location, namely in the User Bank area... you need create your new LIVE SET making sure that each slot references a User Bank Performance, not a Library location. All keeper Performances are in its new User Bank HOME.

A “Not Found” or “Cannot Find” message means probably it is pointing to an installed Library location that doesn’t exist.

Phil:

I continue to be confused. I thought that since I "loaded" the same library files into both my Montage and my MODX, in the same order, that the Performances would be located in the same place.

And since I "Saved" a User File from my Montage and "Loaded" that into my MODX, I thought the position of my User Performances in the MODX would be the same and that the USER1 Live Set that came over with the User File from the Montage, it (the Live set) would successfully point to my User Performances - since those should have also come over in the same User File.

How do I avoid this problem. My goal has been to configure my Montage and my MODX as close as possible so that I could develop my Performances on the Montage but transfer them over to my MODX for gigging. And in doing so, not have to come up with a different set of MSB/LSB/PC codes, one for the Montage and one for the MODX. If I understood your explanation of Live Set correctly.

I've attached a couple of screen shots of both my Montage and my MODX showing that I have the same libraries installed in both, the same User performances in both and the same User1 Live set in both.

I have not found that simply installing the Libraries in the same order guarantees that your Programs will automatically find the links... I have seen others say as much, (but I cannot verify this). Please do me a favor:

On the MONTAGE, go to the LIVE SET: USER 1, Page 3
Recall “Uptown Horns”
Press the HOME button
Tap the “Performance Name” box > touch “Property” where does the MONTAGE tell you this Performance is located?

You mentioned that you imported all your Performances into your User Bank, I see 11 Performances is that all?

Phil: I think I see one of my mistakes. ON the Montage, the Live set is pointing to an "installed library" (UserLibrary09292019) which is not installed on the MODX. So I am going to install that Library on the MODX and see if the Live Set works. Please Stand By.

Thanks - Mark

Success!
After a lot of reading and using this forum - getting great help from Phil and Jason, I have my MODX working as a mirror of my Montage. Now I am not using all of the memory in the Montage because the MODX has less. And as time goes by, I will continue to fine tune my libraries, because now I know that I can import a library into the User memory, edit the performances and store the revisions as a new, custom library that I can Load into my Montage.

I have one last housekeeping question

1) I send a Midi program change command on Midi channel 1. I have both my Montage and MODX set up in "Single" midi mode. As I understand, if I have a performance created with multiple performances, such as multiple splits, I could use "Multi" mode to set each separate performance to a different Midi channel and I could then separately change each performance. for now, I am keeping things simple and using the "Single" mode. But every now and again, when I turn on my Montage, it has changed to Multi mode. How/why does this happen.

You should use the MIDI I/O Mode that suits your needs at the moment. Expect your situation to change, and when it does, then change the MIDI I/O Mode to accomplish the task at hand. I’m not sure one is easier than the next. Or if that even matters, I do know that the wrong choice makes it impossible to accomplish your goal.

The Performance is the playable entity. There can only be one Performance called up at a time. Your comment about a Performance that was created by merging other Performances is not relevant, once the different components are merged they become one Performance, there can be only one Performance called up at a time.

You can address them according to rules of the system. Parts within a Performance that are linked by the KBD CTRL Function are treated as one entity, all other Parts can be treated as individuals.

What you want to do is get to know how the synth engine works. Then, believe it or not, you’ll begin to know exactly what settings to make when communicating either Out via MIDI or sending MIDI in to the system. It can be complex, but does not have to be difficult.
You have the following concerns:
Am I transmitting Out with the goal of documenting and playing back to the instrument?
Am I transmitting Out with the goal of triggering and/or controlling an external device?

Those are two very different things, and is why there are several options when it comes to MIDI Input/Output.
Adding to the complexity are the eight Arpeggiators which can act as a type of Note filter/generator... it can filter your direct Notes and replace them with a dynamically adjusted musical Phrase, on the Arp-active channels. On channels with no Arps active your direct notes play through, normally.

When MIDI I/O Mode = Single or Hybrid, the Arpeggiators of the KBD CTRL-linked Parts do not filter your notes, they do not generate MIDI Note data that travels to the MIDI OUT... only what you play goes Out via MIDI.

Single means, you are not interested in transmitting the Arpeggio Note data Out via MIDI.
Single means, you can play/control the MONTAGE/MODX with a single MIDI In channel
Single will be overridden in any Performance where a Zone has been activated.