If I stick with this already seeming damned machine. They better have tutorials set up and ready to go in regards to every important concern. I'm saying if I have a question or want to be shown something, I best be having an easy time getting to the tutorial I need and that tutorial should be there when the Montage arrives. I do not want to wait to learn something, because they took away something else that everyone loves and uses, and knows. It seems to me that Yamaha created this product, so people will upgrade and spend money on the full version of Cubase, which they want to have become the norm, because selling software once it is complete, is money in the bank. That's a lot more money in their pockets, I don't think you need my masters degree in business, to understand that. If yamaha simply equipped the Montage with an onbaord sequencer, I know they would sell so many more units, maybe a tad more expensive, but who cares at the price its at anyway. But instead they are banking on people's purchases of Cubase 8 upgrade over time, being $299, which its manufacturer is Steinberg, owned by Yamaha. I think I should just get hired so I can fill them in on the potential here: A Yamaha montage, with an onboard sequencer (seems so simple and right), equals the king, maybe, of synths. It cuts out the primary complaint of motif owners, which it is clear yamaha didn't take that into consideration at all, and I get the feeling they are aware of this. Instead they keep an arpeggiater, a tool I not once touched with my motif ES, and I made awesome, kind of mesmerizing actually, beats and songs easily with the sequencer. Bottom line, without the onboard sequencer, everyone is forced to use a DAW. When a company is able to guide the masses, they make a lot more money by virtue. Who wants a stripped down version of cubase? I mean we all just bought the most powerful "stage piano" ever. This results in upgrading to full version of Cubase. Because we already spent a few thousand dollars, what does it matter to upgrade for $299. I think anyone who does not agree that yamaha would truly sell more units with an onboard sequencer, is part of the movement of the Yamaha wool being pulled down over our eyes. The sequencer does not need to be effected with all of the bells and whistles of the Montage precisely, it just needs to be there, if they want to actually appeal to customers using their previous products. I mean they pretty much guarantee that motif owners will love the Montage. Maybe if the Montage came with a spot in a, hands on class locally, then I would be more open to learning and looking beyond a simple, but key piece of the motif series. (Seems that this could be a great business idea) Anyway, since it does not have this, one honestly could slap a completely random brand name on this and advertise it as a whole new synth, which would not have any connection to motif. But, no they indeed create a tie between the motif and the montage to get gullible and less knowledgeable, but still smart and striving to create awesome music, people like me to buy into it. I'm thinking I'm going to opt out. . .but then I won't have the "most powerful synth ever", which has been claimed every year when any new synth from any company comes out and my music won't compare to that of the Montage owners. We just all have to remember that, no music we hear now or have heard in the past was created by a montage. I'm not taking shots at anyone kindly helping people on here, more so just can't believe the guys in Japan. It's just ludicrous. I can't take it though any more. Writing all this shit. Not being a workstation, just has put a lid on the fire of anticipation and leaves many people in a shitty forced situation, if they choose to walk the path of a machine that can't create on its own. I wish it was that easy to say ok screw the Montage I'm just going to get this kind of older unit, that has a sequencer, but will be replaced by something better by next year or even six months maybe. Geeeeeeeeeezeee. If I have any more thoughts and questions it will be because I decided to try it out. No more complaints from me. It is just to much to have your hopes and anticipation of the successor of the motif squashed. Thanks. One last thing, it turns out that not just the people were mislead but also larger audio/music companies were to. This was written in January, I won't name the company, but look this. It is infused with misleading and false information. Especially the end.
The title of this article states yamaha had arrived with its new flagship "WORKSTATION". I guess it's one of the only "workstations" that doesnt have an onboard pattern/track record. Anyway here is the article, pay attention to the end.

Yamaha corporation has been breaking boundaries in music technology since it was founded in Japan more than a century ago. Though it originated as a piano and organ maker, in 1887, the company has since branched out into many avenues of manufacturing, developing products as diverse as motorcycles, sporting goods, and industrial robots, to name a few. However, despite its expansion into other markets, Yamaha has always kept its eye on the musical prize, consistently delivering innovative products such as the groundbreaking DX series FM synthesizers, and highly influential Motif workstation keyboards.

Building on the legacy of these two iconic keyboards, Yamaha has just announced its new flagship workstation synthesizer at the 2016 NAMM show: the Montage. Combining elements of the DX and the Motif, the Montage employs the powerful Motion Control Synthesis Engine, which comprises two sound engines in one: the AWM2 (synthesis and sample based sounds) and FM‐X (Frequency Modulation synthesis.)

Powered by proprietary Yamaha technology for data compression and playback, the AWM2 engine provides realistic sound reproduction and features nearly 10 times the waveform capacity of the Motif XF. This means that the Montage allows for far more samples per instrument than the XF, and thus a far more nuanced sound. The FM‐X engine is capable of producing everything from classic ’80s FM-based basses and bells, to harsh, cutting-edge modern EDM type sounds. It features 8‐operator FM architecture and 128‐note polyphony, allowing for a massive array of sound-design options.

Like the Motif, the Montage features 16-part multi-timbral operation, but it comes with a full range of all-new sounds, like the Yamaha CFX Premium Grand Piano, detailed new strings and woodwinds, and select content from the DX and TX family, all modernized to take advantage of the Motion Control Synthesis Engine. Also, Montage is directly compatible with Motif ES/XS/XF Voices, allowing you to transfer your favorite presets and get all of your sounds together in one place.

The Montage comes in three 61-, 76-, and 88-key configurations. The Montage 6 and Montage 7 feature premium FSX semi‐weighted synthesizer action with aftertouch, while the Montage 8 features fully weighted keys with balanced hammer action and aftertouch. Other notable features include a large color touch screen, a “Super Knob” control that can control multiple parameters simultaneously, dual insert FX for all 16 parts, powerful pattern sequencer, and an arpeggiator that allows up to 8 arpeggio parts at once.

Jan, if your reading. You've made some pretty bitchy comments to people, including me. But maybe this type of crap, might be why some of us thought it was an actual workstation and came with an onboard pattern sequencer, thus purchasing the product. Alrighty then, until I decide I'll be non existent in this board. Thanks for everyone's help.

I have a feeling, besides the Yamaha consumer research that we were never surveyed concerning whether true or not, that some serious DSP/power consuming processes due to the ONE-performance mode design would have been a huge hurdle for a hardware synth to overcome. It's not there because it was too much to handle without significant design delays, considerable cost increases etc. or cuts in other areas of the conceptual design. I still wonder about the additional sounds engines implied in the menu by "dot, dot, dot". You'd have to have a removable panel or service tech install new circuit board such as AN, VL etc. to achieve such an upgrade. I wonder does Montage have internal expansion bays. If not, then engine upgrades would mean buying the Montage XS. Anyone care to pop the top and find out? They might not want us to know so of course you'll have the threat of voiding the warranty. I repair these things in my sleep so I might take mine apart soon.

Dear Ryan,

Of course I'm reading.

"f I stick with this already seeming damned machine. They better have tutorials set up and ready to go in regards to every important concern. I'm saying if I have a question or want to be shown something [...]"

I gotta hand it to you: that is one hilarious ultimatum.

A couple of FYIs:
1. my "bitchy" (as you put it) comments were directed at people with clear attitude problems, which even BM noticed. For instance, there was that gentleman that was getting all frustrated about a product that he doesn't have. I tried to explain to him that there's no point to it and that I had my own doubts about the Montage as well, but perhaps the Montage was not a synth for me. He drew the least possible conclusion and proceeded with his attitude so then I created that diagram for him.
2. your "I bought the Montage 8 for $3199" thingy didn't work for two reasons:
2.1. I haven't visited that thread until today after reading your "complaint" here, and you've already edited it out - I only saw that because it still remains quoted in other's posts. You did manage to fool a couple of by-standers though, kudos to you.
2.2. $4000 vs $3199 makes absolutely no difference in "spend ${fair_amount_of_money} because of one totally vague sentence ("if you owned a motif you will love the Montage") and without carefully studying the specifications". Money is not an issue for me either. I just don't spend it on things I don't need.
3. Calling me "a jerk" (which you did in the "SEQUNECER" thread) or using the word "bitchy" pretty much defeats the point of you complaining about my posts. In other words, if you want to criticize one's behavior - yours should be at least a bit better.

"But maybe this type of crap, might be why some of us thought it was an actual workstation and came with an onboard pattern sequencer"

OMG. READ. THE. SPECS.

Yamaha will still sell tons of Montage. Because of its FM-X engine, Motion Seqs and THE modulation matrix. Not because of one vague sentence.

david wrote:

I have a feeling, besides the Yamaha consumer research that we were never surveyed concerning whether true or not, that some serious DSP/power consuming processes due to the ONE-performance mode design would have been a huge hurdle for a hardware synth to overcome. It's not there because it was too much to handle without significant design delays, considerable cost increases etc. or cuts in other areas of the conceptual design.

I'm not sure what you mean. "It's not there"? What is it that is not there?

I still wonder about the additional sounds engines implied in the menu by "dot, dot, dot". You'd have to have a removable panel or service tech install new circuit board such as AN, VL etc. to achieve such an upgrade. I wonder does Montage have internal expansion bays. If not, then engine upgrades would mean buying the Montage XS. Anyone care to pop the top and find out? They might not want us to know so of course you'll have the threat of voiding the warranty. I repair these things in my sleep so I might take mine apart soon.

I don't think you need extra hardware for additional synthesis engines. After all, they managed to build a DSP that withstands generating 128-note polyphony of 8-operator FM. That's 1024 wave generators running at once. That's pretty huge. Add 16 dual insert effects and system effects on top of that. With that much power I'm pretty confident it could withstand an AN engine capable of, say, 60-note polyphony (6 * AN1x). Via means of a simple software update. It's 2016, isn't it? 😉

If that's indeed the case, they're probably holding off the development of additional engines until they've seen some convincing sales figures.

All the missing features we're discussing like ARP editing, a real MIDI sequencer, more sound engines, sampling etc.

I'm not sure how it process everything internally but the PLGs of AN, FM, VL etc.of the past were always circuit boards and not software programs. Maybe Montage has crossed over into a software capable system but if so, is a soft synth as good a sounding system as a hardware synth?

david wrote:

All the missing features we're discussing like ARP editing, a real MIDI sequencer

I would hardly believe that this has anything to do with DSP or resources (that's at least I understood that you were implying). They simply decided there was no point to porting the sequencer to the new OS and redesigning it for the new UI. That checks the "cost increases" box. Yamaha decided to aim for the DAW-folk market (which I bet is the majority of those buying such expensive machines) and that's that. Makes perfect sense to me.

I'm not sure how it process everything internally but the PLGs of AN, FM, VL etc.of the past were always circuit boards and not software programs. Maybe Montage has crossed over into a software capable system but if so, is a soft synth as good a sounding system as a hardware synth?

I'll oversimplify here, but the gist is: remember - they (the PLGs) were all purely digital instruments (and their hardware chips were also running some kind of software). Basically any digital hardware can be recreated using software (think of old 8-bit computers emulated on modern computers). And software that runs on a specific hardware (for instance PLG150-AN) can be translated to run on a different hardware (Montage) (you could for instance, rewrite an old 8-bit game so that it looks pixel-for-pixel the same and runs under Windows).

So basically you have two options:
- either you leave the old software intact and emulate the hardware (at the expense of performance)
- or you translate the old software to run on your new hardware.

In either of these cases the question of "as good sounding" comes into play only when the signal leaves the digital domain - in a DAC.

Ryan wrote:
If I stick with this already seeming damned machine. They better have tutorials set up and ready to go in regards to every important concern. I'm saying if I have a question or want to be shown something, I best be having an easy time getting to the tutorial I need and that tutorial should be there when the Montage arrives. I do not want to wait to learn something, because they took away something else that everyone loves and uses, and knows. It seems to me that Yamaha created this product, so people will upgrade and spend money on the full version of Cubase, which they want to have become the norm, because selling software once it is complete, is money in the bank. That's a lot more money in their pockets, I don't think you need my masters degree in business,....
..... [YAWN]....[SNORE]....

God, you've got a LOT to say! Are you channeling lars by any chance?
"...already seeming damned machine." Who forced you to buy it? Get an upright piano instead.
"... I best be having an easy time getting to the tutorial I need". Why should you have an easy time operating such a complicated synth? Get an upright piano instead.
"I do not want to wait to learn something..." No, life's too short to wait, and 'learning' is so Passé. Yep! Get an upright piano for sure.
"Yamaha created this product, so people will upgrade and spend money on the full version of Cubase... is money in the bank. That's a lot more money in their pockets" Naughty Yamaha! Naughty, naughty! To develop such a revolutionary synth & expect to be paid for it. How brazen can one be? Should have stuck to upright pianos...eh?
"...my masters degree in business..." Aha, now it's all coming out. MASTERS degree... we should have guessed. Inspired while you were playing an upright piano, no doubt?;)

LOL.

So, is there at least a way to edit the ARP within a daw, any daw ? And then store in the user ARP bank ?

I would like a tool that can favorite certain arp patterns. Once I find one I like how do I find it again - 10000 of them

Write it down? I know that's distressingly low-tech, but it might work.

My problem is that I don't have time to audition 10,000 different arps. I wish there were a way to categorize them in some visual manner…

Hi, you have the category search view for your arp with Category and subcategory, it can help you :

To see the Arp number, more easy than to write the arp name, go to Home Screen, select Motion Control > Arpeggio, select the number "pad" to see the arp number :

Excellent! Hadn't found that feature.Thanks!

@Joel. How are you inserting those Montage screen shots? I'm having to take a photo of the screen and then upload it. I have the remote adapter to my display but unless it can be connected directly to a computer I can't capture the screen view.

@Joel. How are you inserting those Montage screen shots? I'm having to take a photo of the screen and then upload it. I have the remote adapter to my display but unless it can be connected directly to a computer I can't capture the screen view.

Secondly, how do you write text with the screen shots inserted the text field between lines? I can't paste anything in the text fields like I do all day long with a word processor.

Thanks

Hi David, for the first question i cannot answer to you, i'm the webmaster of Moessieurs a French site about Yamaha Synthesizers and Workstation and i'm in collaboration with Yamaha France, so i have some dedicated features to allow me produce tips and revew in French to support Yamaha Synthesizer like Montage, Reface, Motif XF .... and i cannot tell/write/explain how it's done.

For the second question if you take pictures, you need to upload them on a share web space, for me it's dropbox, i have a link of the picture when it's upload and i put the link with the picture insertion "tool".

Look on the top of a message you write in "Your reply", you have some letter and icons : B, I, U (underline), link, picture, movie, .....

i have put an arrow bottom the picture icon :

Clic on this icon, this pop up appear :

Put you picture url on it and clic on "ok", it's insert in the body of the text.

When you post your message with reply, you will see your pictures.

Moessieurs url is www.moessieurs.com
The site is in French, there is a google translator tool include in the top banner, it's not perfect but it can give you some general informations

Moessieurs facebook page : https://www.facebook.com/Moessieurs/

The first Moessieurs montage video "discovering the montage" is online since one week, in French, subtitle in English

https://youtu.be/ZEPHpelY-N8