Each performance has 16 parts, the first 8 of which can be put under keyboard control so that they can be played simultaneously with splits and layers etc. You can access parts 9-16 with the part control and part select buttons and then place single parts sounds into there. In essence this means you can have a maximum of 8 simultaneously combined sounds (depending on whether these are single part sounds) plus an additional 8 single part sounds accessible in the same performance. Only parts 1-8 can be set under keyboard control though.

One option for your situation would be to use a single part piano sound which would give you more available parts under keyboard control from parts 1-8 (I guess it depends on the sound you want but you might find that within a mix you can't tell the difference between a single or a multi part instrument).

Another option is to create separate performances for each sound "scenario" that you want then place them in a live set so you can easily change between them.

Thanks Phil, I thought as much.

I had thought of making a performance for a verse, one for a chorus etc but there is a lag between choosing the performance and it loading up ie if I play a scale up and down and select a new performance nothing sounds for a few notes while the new performance is loading in.

Ok... Please all humour me, I am no midi expert plus I'm only going on what I've read elsewhere - it's my understanding that parts 9-16 are on. Id I channels 9-16(?) If I change the midi I/o from multi to single channel eg channel 9 and then set a controller keyboard to output on channel 9 - would that operate parts 9-16? Then I can split and layer them and control them externally?

If that's not how the midi I/o works, what if I had a midi controller that outputs all midi channels simultaneously (is this called Omni?) - then I would be able to play 9-16 that way??

I just need to able to utilise those 16 parts on stage if possible...

:-/

I had thought of making a performance for a verse, one for a chorus etc but there is a lag between choosing the performance and it loading up ie if I play a scale up and down and select a new performance nothing sounds for a few notes while the new performance is loading in.

Craig, Seamless Sound Switching (SSS) works for practical musical situations. I'm sorry, but playing a scale up and down while selecting a new performance is neither practical, nor musical. If I may suggest, and stay with me for a minute: A practical, musical use of SSS would be holding a string chord so that it extends into the next section of the song while switching to a piano. Just as a basic example. There might be a different solution for your requirement. But it might not be this (SSS). You might want to use it for your scale run switches - but frankly that is a *poor choice* for using this particular feature.

It takes a bit of practice to use SSS properly and a musical sensibility. Here's a description: the bridge of the song requires you to play an Eb Major7 whole note chord at measure 31, and its tied to a dotted whole note chord, therefore you're required to hold it two beats into the Verse that begins at measure 33; but you need to hit an Eb Major7 piano chord at the top of measure 33. You need to hold the strings with the sustain pedal, switch to piano, and while the strings sustain, you can hit that piano chord. That's a practical musical example of SSS.

Don't try to change the sound in the middle of a scale run up and down, that is imprecise, random, not practical and certainly not musical. Try something more practical is my suggestion. BUT if that is actually what you need to do, try a different Montage feature, that allows for this!!

You should be reading the Manuals, not what others (who are also trying to figure it out) are writing -especially if they have not read the manual. The Montage is 16 Part multitimbral. You can transmit on as many as 8 channels at once. You can play each of the sixteen Parts of the Montage Performance individually, or you can place as many as eight Parts under Keyboard Control. Those Parts not under Keyboard Control are available as individuals.

The Parts placed under Keyboard Control are communicated to by Parameter Change messages (a special type of message that allows more control than you would get trying to play this with just a separate Midi controller which would use Control Change messages)

Now since you say you are not a Midi expert, we'll just say there are several ways to approach things with any synth. And just because your first attempt doesn't work, doesn't mean you can't do it, perhaps your newness to the instrument simply means you haven't discovered the method to accomplish what you desire.

Say you actually needed to be running scales up and down changing sounds as rapidly as you can, set the sounds in adjacent Parts, let's use Part 12, 13, 14 and 15... Where you're dazzling the audience playing chromatic scales playing 64th notes as fast you can, and you want to switch between flute, sax, synth lead, and violin.

Set these sound in Part 12, 13, 14 and 15... With the [PART CONTROL] button active you can use the Part Select buttons [1]-[16] to rapidly and seamlessly switch instruments within a Performance. Select Part 12, start your 64th note runs, at any time touch PART SELECT 13, 14, 15 as fast as you want you can switch sounds, no delay, no missing notes. (Not very musical or practical, but accomplishes your requirement... Don't believe me? Try it. You could setup 16 sounds like this...

We'd be happy to help you figure out your requirements, but don't approach a feature without first attempting to understand what it is "supposed to do", what it was designed to accomplish... Then you can see if it or some other feature might better solve your requirement. I've read the manuals, and now have a fairly good handle on how the Montage works... It's a very deep product, and there are still likely to be many things to discover and learn.

But discovering the button on the car door that works the electric window should not lead you to believe that it would be awesome if it also opened the trunk... Actually, there's a different button for that function. SSS is for the practical musical use I described initially above... Placing instruments in individual Parts would allow you to play your scales up and down and switch, without delay, between them.

You can setup as many 16 Parts this way and switch between them. Because you CAN play as many as eight Parts, does not mean you have to, you can set as many as eight, the others can be in waiting for you to select and play individually.

You could set Parts 1, 2, and 3 under KEYBD CONTROL, and have PARTS 4-16 setup for individual access, one-by-one.

OK Bad Mister...that was an silly example from me but a real life example is when I play Billie Jean in my cover band. So let's say I have 6 parts covering the verse comprising of some layers of strings and synths then I do a little run into the bridge at which point I want to switch into some layers of fm pianos and strings up the top. It doesn't seem it can be done? Because the performance takes too long to load from one to the other.

So... I would have to not play the run in order to be able to switch performances and give it enough time to load. If all the parts were able to be under keyboard control I could do this with scenes (which is how I understood it would work when I ordered the montage - again no ones fault but my own) but do you know why we are limited to 8 parts under keyboard control? Even if they were all accessible under keyboard control but you could only use 8 at a time, that would be an improvement.

So my other question was if I bought a midi controller keyboard, would I be able to play parts 9-16 simultaneously (or otherwise) as layers or splits via midi? Then I would have access to all 16 parts at the same time(?)

Thanks

Could you transition from that first multi-part performance into say part #15 (pressing that part button with part control active) then back into a new multi-part performance while using the SSS feature. If the loading time is the same then there's not any advantage with this extra step.

I have also thought about the midi controller whether that works or not. I need to test this out myself. It should work fine because Montage can play all 16 parts simultaneously, it just needs a midi signal for the other 8 parts to play. So, while you're preforming the transition on the midi controller, the Montage has switched to the new performance BUT those parts 9-16 would have to be the same voices programmed to each performance and would that change cause a delay in the sound on part #15?

But if you can NOT separately assign 1 - 8 to keyboard control and 9 - 16 to midi control simultaneously (within the same performance) then it won't work. If so, then If there's a way to correct this it would be very advantageous. If it is all one way or nothing then that's not so good.

I'm sorry Craig, but you really don't know enough about the Montage to say it can't be done. Perhaps not with the level of expertise you've amassed thus far. With all respect, this is an extremely deep instrument...with many tools you may not have yet encountered.

A lot of what you are talking about does not require multiple Parts to do. So maybe no, you can't pick just any already made sounds to accomplish what you require, but nothing you've listed so far cannot be done. You may have to actual program your own custom sounds, and to me that's the real reason to buy a "synthesizer" with this power... Using it to build custom sounds for your particular need.

A killer electric piano and strings combination can be programmed with a single Part. You are thinking in such broad strokes you are missing the real power of Montage. You don't need to use an extremely detailed 18 Element acoustic piano, for example, if you're going to be banging out a hard hitting rock or dance number with it. Nothing would prevent you (other than common sense), but it would be wiser to choose an appropriate sound. Save the multiple Part, extremely detailed piano for when you actually are playing something where having all that detail in the soft and medium strike range makes a difference (as an example). It you are never going to strike a key in the soft or medium range, it's just a waste... If you follow my example.

To say "you can't" on a Montage, an instrument that you've had maybe a few weeks, well I'm not ready to say this at all. I happened to have done a setup for Billie Jean and have had no such issues, at all. All I'm trying to impress upon you is that there are so many ways to smoothly move between sounds with the Motion Control engine don't be in such a hurry to conclude what "you can't" do.

If you are not into programming, perhaps a synth is not for you. There are two levels of programming this synth...
Snorkeling _ building your own custom sounds by combining data that already exists. Generally preparing it for particular use in your particular band situation.
Scuba diving _ building your custom sounds up from scratch where you dive deeper into the engine and customize things on a very meticulous individual level.

Both are valid methodologies.

You can combine sounds, make splits and layers on Montage without ever hitting the EDIT button, and/or hit that EDIT button and build "smart" sounds that work for exactly what you need to accomplish. This may mean you'll have to learn the synthesizer's architecture to get the most out of it. But I've not seen a "you can't" in what you want to do.

Someone wanted to use SCENEs for something they don't do... Scenes have a very useful function, but they don't do everything. And just because you want a particular function to roll down the windows, doesn't mean there isn't a way to do it... With a different button.

Just for my lay persons understanding. Is it possible to have more than 8 parts via layers splits whatever playing at once? I think I'm reading that if you create some individual parts then these parts can be added upon to create several more parts that are playable. So if the synth can play 8 via keyboard control its possible to bring in a created part that can have 3 more instruments and in that way you can exceed the 8 parts handled by the keyboard alone? Id give my left ear for Yamaha to put out some tutorials on video for those of us whom are less experienced.......

BM unfortunately didn't answer that specific question about 8 performances under keyboard control with the other 8 under remote midi control simultaneously. He might have answered it in a technical way that we didn't understand. I am assuming that the answer is no you can't. It's either 8 only under keyboard control or 16 under either individual control as a single part or all 16 under remote midi control. Here it is again if we can get a practical interpretation:

"The Montage is 16 Part multitimbral. You can transmit on as many as 8 channels at once. You can play each of the sixteen Parts of the Montage Performance individually, or you can place as many as eight Parts under Keyboard Control. Those Parts not under Keyboard Control are available as individuals."

So if those "individuals" (last line) can be simultaneously played on a midi keyboard while switching the performance then this would be a solution. If switching the performance interrupts those 9-16 "individuals" then your midi solo gets messed up as well.

To me it seems like the switching performance is the issue. When you change performance (by pressing the touch screen/hardware button/footswitch) there is an albeit small but noticeable delay before the new performance is ready to play - we're talking a second or less. IMO the term seamless sound switching is a little misleading - it doesn't actually let you seamlessly switch performances but rather not cut dead the current performance sound when a new performance is selected. They made a big deal about this in the videos for the launch of the product but watching them back again there wasn't a point where this was evident. It's not a new issue though - my motif xs did the same thing when changing voices or performances (though of course with also cutting the sound of the current performance too).

Is it a major issue? Not sure yet. I guess it depends on people's requirements. I'm working in live musical theatre shows where you're changing between sounds or combination of sounds often and usually very rapidly (especially in more recent shows). It seems that a single performance can contain one multi sound combination (split/layered whatever) and then other single sounds that can be accessed from the part select buttons - which is the example that BM gives, but if you're wanting more than one combination of sounds? You can of course zone things into different areas of the keyboard but that isn't always practical.

I'll put my hand up and say that I don't know enough about motion control to say whether it can achieve these things - but the video examples I've seen show the gradual change between sounds with the super knob and although it might be cool for a sound to go from choir and then gradually add strings and organ that's not what I need it to do (nor Craig either if I understand his post correctly).

Am I complaining about this - well no not really. I see it as a challenge rather than a limitation and I think what BM was getting at is that a single part has 8 elements so there's every possibility of combining more than one sound within a single part - elements permitting - you do have to roll up your sleeves and get your hands a bit dirtier though! As an example - I've just finished a run of Fame in Ireland with my motif xs - at one point I had to play a synth pad in the left hand and xylophone in the right with key ranges and note shifting - easy enough to set up with 2 voices but looking at my montage the equivalent sounds had only 2 elements each so it could have been programmed into the same part.

Progress. I highly suggest that before you conclude something can't be done, you spend a bit more time learning this engine. That's all I'm suggesting. SSS is not a cure all, I've stated one way to use it in a practical musical situation... obviously if you're running scales while changing sounds this is not the feature you want. Simple use Multiple slots and you cannot out speed the Montage when changing active Parts.

If you don't need a choir going to strings going to a pipe organ combination, fair enough. I understand, but so what!?! Learn from the potential of what you hear/see/discover in the factory set. Learn to program the synth to do what *you* need, it's a synthesizer!

Also it is not designed to take the place of a multiple keyboard rig. If you begin to understand how Montage works then and only then can you begin to understand how to accomplish what you need... And fit it into your particular situation. Some solutions may require you getting another keyboard. That's not really anyone's problem but your own. If you've painted yourself into that artistic corner, and you don't know any solutions but those you can think of yourself, then either get a second or third keyboard to do what you need... Or ask for assistance. I can't always promise you a satisfactory solution, but I can promise we'll take a look at it and help you make the most of what there.

I don't think it's the obligation of any one keyboard to do everything. I just don't. Your mileage may vary.

Hi, again iI looking for a simple answer and not a life lesson.........Can you PLEASE just answer the question? Can this synth play more than 8 parts at one time? 8 are controlled by the keyboard, can others be brought in and played at the same time regardless of how it's done? Simple yes or no. Also please address this latency issue as 2 of my friends also ran into this problem.

BM thanks for your responses so far.

Just a little background - I have been a Motif XF player since it was released, sometimes I gigged with that on its own, sometimes I used it as a second board with my Nord Stage on the bottom. Sometimes I MIDI'ed in a controller keyboard to play layers on a separate channel so I have experience with different setups.

But to be honest the best way for me is just a single keyboard, Motif was great cause it had scenes in mixing mode so I could swap between them quickly with 16 parts at my disposal. TBH I don't buy a synth to do loads of fancy stuff, I play mostly in a party band, or as a solo piano player. No one cares if the sounds are absolutely bang on, I am the kind of guy who finds a nice preset piano sound, layers it with a FM piano, adds some strings on the expression pedal, puts some brass up the top, maybe a chime sound on the top key, swaps out the brass for a lead sound using scenes etc and just use a lot of parts to make a big sound. I though that was snorkelling, not haven't to go in and mess about with elements etc so I guess I must be a paddler.

Anyway, yeah I accept I can't just add 16 parts and play them all from the keyboard of the montage, so I just want to know if I add a controller keyboard can I set that to a midi channel, and the montage to a midi channel, and use parts 9-16 like I use 1-8 with the montage keyboard. I thought it would be quicker to ask on here than buying a controller keyboard or borrowing one from somewhere.

If it's not possible I will just revert back to a Motif XF so I'm not fussed either way.

You said a synth is not for me.. I went through a period of gigging with a Tyros 5, the registrations switched instantly but you can only layer 3 sounds on that at the same time and although it sounded great it wasn't quite as nice as the flexibility of the Motif.

Anyway, yeah I accept I can't just add 16 parts and play them all from the keyboard of the montage, so I just want to know if I add a controller keyboard can I set that to a midi channel, and the montage to a midi channel, and use parts 9-16 like I use 1-8 with the montage keyboard. I thought it would be quicker to ask on here than buying a controller keyboard or borrowing one from somewhere.

An external controller can be used to play Parts 9-16 while Parts 1-8 are under Keyboard Control of the Montage. But no, you cannot control it exactly like Montage controls Parts 1-8.

Here's how it works: when the Montage is in MIDI I/O mode = MULTI, Parts that not under "Keyboard Control", default to the Midi channel # that corresponds to the Part # of the slot. Say you are playing a Multi Part Montage Performance that uses two Parts (the green KBD CTRL icon is active on Parts 1 and 2), this means Parts 3 through 16 are available to be played by the Montage when you directly select them as an individual Part (by pressing the PART SELECT button that corresponds to that PART), and/or can be played from an external MIDI device, when you transmit in on their particular channel.

If your external controller can transmit on eight zones, like the Motif XS/XF's Master mode, you can setup to control any 8 available Parts in Montage.
If your external controller can transmit on four zones, like the MOX/MOXF's Master mode, or CP4 Stage's Master Keyboard function, you can setup to control any 4 available Parts in the Montage.
If your external controller is only capable of transmitting on a single channel you will only be able to play a single available Montage Part, by transmitting IN on the channel that matches the Montage Part.

You can, of course, opt to play the Montage via MIDI "some what like" Montage plays itself (Multi Part play), if you set the Montage to Send/Recieve on just a single channel (Midi I/O mode = Single).

For the Montage to be multi-timbral and for it to allow an external controller access to a different set of sounds - you must set the MIDI I/O mode to MULTI. Therefore your controller needs to be substantial, if you want to take advantage of multiple key range zones on the Montage.

There are some differences between playing an integrated keyboard/tone generator and playing the tone generator through MIDI. It is not the same, by its nature. The Montage does not use cc messages to address itself, as your external control is almost surely going to use. Control Changes messages are Channel messages, and will not address the synth engine in the same way a Montage physical control addresses the tone engine.

You can set a knob or control on your external controller to send cc74 which in Midi universally addresses Filter Cutoff. And while what you expect to happen does happen (you apply an offset to the filters on that Midi channel), it is not the same as moving a Montage Assignable Knob. The AS knobs can be so very different because of the multiple destination assignments and detailed depth scaling capability. This may, or may not, impact what you need to do, but nothing changes this as a fact. Certainly when addressing multiple Parts through Midi from an external controller you will not be able to do everything exactly like you can when playing the Montage from its own local controls.

Hope that helps.

BM replied yes I think as stated here:

"Here's how it works: when the Montage is in MIDI I/O mode = MULTI, Parts that not under "Keyboard Control", default to the Midi channel # that corresponds to the Part # of the slot. Say you are playing a Multi Part Montage Performance that uses two Parts (the green KBD CTRL icon is active on Parts 1 and 2), this means Parts 3 through 16 are available to be played by the Montage when you directly select them as an individual Part (by pressing the PART SELECT button that corresponds to that PART), and/or can be played from an external MIDI device, when you transmit in on their particular channel."

Now the second part of the question is this:

1) I'm playing CFX and some other parts that occupy the first 8 slots which are under keyboard control. I also have the other 8 (9-16) set to to be under MIDI control.

2) Now as I'm playing I want to change programs without a delay or lag in my performance. My second program contains different parts in the 1 - 8 slots but I want parts 9 - 16 to remain the same through the transition into the second performance.

3) I'm in the transition now, playing the MIDI controller keyboard (parts 9-16) and while I'm playing I select the second performance and I don't want the sound to be interrupted.

4) Will parts 9-16 also get interrupted as I'm changing to the second performance that are under keyboard control?

If not then that would be ideal. If so, but there's a future update way to separate the (2), that is separate the "keyboard control parts" from the "midi control parts" within a performance so that the MIDI remains uninterrupted when a performance is being changed. This would be a work-around so that we wouldn't have to purchase 2 Montages.