I like your comment Jason. Much more intelligent response than what we have heard before on this subject. Tools are about the musical creation experience not just...."we have the tool already (ie Cubase or some other DAW)" I make different music using hardware sequencers than I do using a DAW. that is a fact. The workflow and polyphony options, and scale locking options necessarily produce different sounding results.

Roland and many other companies are proving that the market did not abandon hardware sequencers and to claim that the industry has shifted to a DAW workflow cannot be true. Otherwise there would be no more demand or sales of hardware sequencers.

That being said I dont believe the Montage or Modx is going to bring us this capability as it wasnt built in from the ground up. Yamaha has maintained their position that the Montage is not a workstation hence no sequencer or sampler.

The newest competitor offering does have to give up something as well. It only has four parts with 4 oscillators per part. That is far less than the Montage has.
Also if someone already has Ableton, that is essentially a major function of Rolands new sequencer clip selection.

So for those who love the Montage sound - keep it and buy a third party hardware sequencer. The Pioneer Toraiz Squid supports 16 tracks at once.

As I wrote before I am totally not interested in a hardware sequencer. I understand people who want it and maybe the new Fantom finally gives Yamaha the reason to do it. Who knows... Or people now have another great choice.

But the Fantom has more things the Montage is lacking like freely assignable MIDI channels. Analog modelling. VPiano. You can store the song with the scene (= performance). You can transpose way further than on the Montage. You can insert into the middle of a live set. Simultaneously using MIDI and USB. Much more...

After reading the user manual lots of other things are in the Fantom which you can find on Ideascale for the Montage. It's really uncanny: someone took the Montage, cloned it, took most ideas from Ideascale and applied them as well. And then added some other great ideas like Phantom power for the Mics. Really nice. Most things which interest me Yamaha can address with a firmware update. Please do!!!

BTW: there are 16 parts with 4 elements each in the Fantom! Not 4. So it's the same.

The are two big things in the Montage they did not clone: FM-X and the performance structure - unfortunately. That was one of the best things in the Montage for me. That the parts are stored with the performances. No need to store a changed part when using it in a performance and thus changing it for all performances which use it. That's one of the things I hated in the Integra 7 which is certainly one of the most direct predecessors of the new Fantom.

Scenes appear to the be closest thing to Performances and Scene Selection appears to be similar to Live Set.

Although I also have little use for the sequencer requested by some (I would appreciate it if it was there - used in MO6 from time-to-time, but can deal with the alternative workflows) - I do like to sometimes present "missing" features in the context of competitive disadvantage. Also helps to see how other products have implemented something users may be asking for. Some shapes to help start putting clay around.

Sure - there's plenty of other features outside of the topic of this thread that can be compared - maybe a separate Montage/MODX vs. Fantom 6/7/8 thread would be worthwhile. When I reviewed the specs of Fantom - I thought there were a number of things (some you listed, some you didn't) that could have been informed by complaints against Montage/MODX (likely not - but maybe). So that keyboard is interesting in spite of some early mud-slinging from current Fantom G/X owners. "Didn't go far enough with innovation", "limited this and that". As with anything - some early complaints aren't necessarily factual (generalizing based off of one engine, etc).

As I wrote before I am totally not interested in a hardware sequencer. I understand people who want it and maybe the new Fantom finally gives Yamaha the reason to do it. Who knows... Or people now have another great choice.

But the Fantom has more things the Montage is lacking like freely assignable MIDI channels. Analog modelling. VPiano. You can store the song with the scene (= performance). You can transpose way further than on the Montage. You can insert into the middle of a live set. Simultaneously using MIDI and USB. Much more...

After reading the user manual lots of other things are in the Fantom which you can find on Ideascale for the Montage. It's really uncanny: someone took the Montage, cloned it, took most ideas from Ideascale and applied them as well. And then added some other great ideas like Phantom power for the Mics. Really nice. Most things which interest me Yamaha can address with a firmware update. Please do!!!

BTW: there are 16 parts with 4 elements each in the Fantom! Not 4. So it's the same.

The are two big things in the Montage they did not clone: FM-X and the performance structure - unfortunately. That was one of the best things in the Montage for me. That the parts are stored with the performances. No need to store a changed part when using it in a performance and thus changing it for all performances which use it. That's one of the things I hated in the Integra 7 which is certainly one of the most direct predecessors of the new Fantom.

The Montage is most likely a finished product guys, like I had said months ago. It's been a year and a half since OS 2.5 was dropped. If you like what the Fantom has to offer, get one- that's what I'm doing. At least now Yamaha knows they made a mistake trying to predict what they thought everyone wanted. Roland did it correctly, and now we have the best workstation ever made- because it caters to a much larger user base, and this is only the beginning...who knows what they'll add with OS updates? The King of innovation has taken back the throne folks; adapt or get lost in the sauce.

Had Yamaha put a sequencer in the Montage with the current structure, I doubt it would be as easy to use as the Fantom does it. Arpeggios must be arranged in order of scenes e Performance recorder is incomplete..... etc. Even the laggy switching of performances suggest the firmware is pushing the hardware near its limitations.

I will say this. You can get Fantom-like sequencer capabilities using a Novation Circuit and ableton (Intro or higher) to record all the parts just like the Fantom does on board.

Do we really want Yamaha to release a sequencer? Check out this video from the Motif XF. It looks like Microsoft DOS mode. No thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zg_6wSlR9s See 2.23min

And it's been instrumental in helping make more hit records than probably any other workstation in history. Yeah, we all hate that 'DOS' screen. Where is the facepalm emoticon when we need it?

Scenes appear to the be closest thing to Performances and Scene Selection appears to be similar to Live Set.

I believe the scene chain is actually the equivalent on the Fantom to the Live Set.

Although I also have little use for the sequencer requested by some (I would appreciate it if it was there - used in MO6 from time-to-time, but can deal with the alternative workflows) - I do like to sometimes present "missing" features in the context of competitive disadvantage. Also helps to see how other products have implemented something users may be asking for. Some shapes to help start putting clay around.

Fully agreed.

Sure - there's plenty of other features outside of the topic of this thread that can be compared - maybe a separate Montage/MODX vs. Fantom 6/7/8 thread would be worthwhile. When I reviewed the specs of Fantom - I thought there were a number of things (some you listed, some you didn't) that could have been informed by complaints against Montage/MODX (likely not - but maybe).

If I would be a synthesizer designer I would certainly have the competition and be familiar with it. And it would certainly follow the forums etc. to find out what I could do better. I guess they also do. They are so similar in so many things...

So that keyboard is interesting in spite of some early mud-slinging from current Fantom G/X owners. "Didn't go far enough with innovation", "limited this and that". As with anything - some early complaints aren't necessarily factual (generalizing based off of one engine, etc).

I did not hear that yet. But there's always the complainers...

The Montage is most likely a finished product guys, like I had said months ago. It's been a year and a half since OS 2.5 was dropped. If you like what the Fantom has to offer, get one- that's what I'm doing.

Well I do have the Montage and so having updates would still be nice! And I do not believe that it is a finished product. I would not be surprised by a 3.0 update coming out this year bring some of the most requested features. Maybe along a slightly improved hardware version - but hopefully the update would also target the existing Montage and MODX.

At least now Yamaha knows they made a mistake trying to predict what they thought everyone wanted. Roland did it correctly, and now we have the best workstation ever made- because it caters to a much larger user base, and this is only the beginning...who knows what they'll add with OS updates? The King of innovation has taken back the throne folks; adapt or get lost in the sauce.

Did Yamaha make a mistake? I don't know about the sales numbers of the Montage. I do know however, that the MODX sold reeaaallly well. Number 1 of all products at Thomann for weeks is quite impressive. And the Montage is a couple of years old.

And looking at the Fantom, it seems they did not do everything "correctly": Apparently you cannot use additional waveforms to use them as waveforms in your normal PCM. Oooops. You can sample onboard but then you cannot use the samples as proper multisamples. Also they have way less effects: Montage has two per part plus two for each performance. The Fantom has 1 which does not include a reverb for each part and reverb, chorus, and two effects per performance (I am just using the Montage terms performance and part instead of scene and zone on the Fantom). That means that you only have one reverb sounding at the same time. I like to have different reverbs for different parts on the Montage. There's certainly many other areas where the Montage is better.

So all in all different instruments with different strengths and weaknesses. I would know by now what the perfect instrument would be for me. But I guess it will never exist unless I design it myself (and find someone who builds it 😀 ).

Had Yamaha put a sequencer in the Montage with the current structure, I doubt it would be as easy to use as the Fantom does it.

Personally I find the usage of the Montage really nice. And comparing the brand new sequencer of the Fantom to a 10 year old sequencer on the Motifs (other posts) is slightly weird. A bigger screen and touch screen makes quite a difference. More memory and compute power does more of that.

Arpeggios must be arranged in order of scenes

As far as I can see the Fantom does not have have the scenes (except for the scenes which are the equivalent of the performances). So that's Apples to Peaches comparison.

The Performance recorder is incomplete..... etc. Even the laggy switching of performances suggest the firmware is pushing the hardware near its limitations.

Personally I find the switching between the performances on the Montage very fast. The lag never disturbed me. Also the Montage has the scene buttons (different type of scenes than the Fantom...) which allows switching very fast. Unfortunately it is not possible to store the keyboard Ctrl state with the scenes, if that was possible it would be much better. And any still perceived lag in switching between performances could probably be overcome with software changes. But even if not: Do you have a Fantom? How fast does it switch between the scenes? Is it totally without lag? None of the demos I have seen so far highlight this and clearly show that there is no lag.

I personally think the Montage does a lot of things right. It is really a brilliant instrument still. The Fantom does not have the nice structure of the performances which include the tones instead of referencing them. That's really unfortunate I think (having both possibilities would of course be perfect). Hopefully they have at least a mode in the Fantom where changing a tone inside a scene and then storing it to a new location will automatically let the scene point to the new location... Also from reading the manuals I got the feeling that samples you load or sample yourself will not be usable as PCM samples but just can be played by the pads. That would really be baaaad. Hopefully I misunderstood that.

The Montage is most likely a finished product guys, like I had said months ago. It's been a year and a half since OS 2.5 was dropped. If you like what the Fantom has to offer, get one- that's what I'm doing.

Well I do have the Montage and so having updates would still be nice! And I do not believe that it is a finished product. I would not be surprised by a 3.0 update coming out this year bring some of the most requested features. Maybe along a slightly improved hardware version - but hopefully the update would also target the existing Montage and MODX.

At least now Yamaha knows they made a mistake trying to predict what they thought everyone wanted. Roland did it correctly, and now we have the best workstation ever made- because it caters to a much larger user base, and this is only the beginning...who knows what they'll add with OS updates? The King of innovation has taken back the throne folks; adapt or get lost in the sauce.

Did Yamaha make a mistake? I don't know about the sales numbers of the Montage. I do know however, that the MODX sold reeaaallly well. Number 1 of all products at Thomann for weeks is quite impressive. And the Montage is a couple of years old.

Having said all that: I will actually get a Fantom in a couple of days. I needed a second synth anyway, so the Fantom seemed like the most obvious choice, now.

I have to address this point Stefan: "Personally I find the usage of the Montage really nice. And comparing the brand new sequencer of the Fantom to a 10 year old sequencer on the Motifs (other posts) is slightly weird. "

Yeah its weird but when you look at the Montage architecture on the surface for AWM2 it is very similar if not an exact clone of the Motif XF. Im no technician though. Anyway theres no point going on about our opinions.

I have to address this point Stefan: "Personally I find the usage of the Montage really nice. And comparing the brand new sequencer of the Fantom to a 10 year old sequencer on the Motifs (other posts) is slightly weird. "

Yeah its weird but when you look at the Montage architecture on the surface for AWM2 it is very similar if not an exact clone of the Motif XF. Im no technician though. Anyway theres no point going on about our opinions.

I agree about the architecture. It is the same with some extensions. Which has also its advantages because you can actually load all Motif XF sounds. That gives you a huge library. But of course the UI and the usage is something different than the architecture. Also note that as far as I can see the architecture of the Z-Core engine of the Fantom is very similar to that I have in my Integra 7 - judging from the user manual and parameter list. This is expected and totally okay for me. And there are certainly some extensions. But after all there is only so many ways to implement something like a synthesizer architecture. Oscillator, envelopes, filters, LFOs, modulation matrix, effects are all similar in all brands with some tweaks here and there. And why would you want to re-invent the wheel every time without need. It is better if people which know the predecessors or competition find their way around immediately. Look at FM-X: A totally different engine but where possible it should be (and is) similar to the AWM2 engine.

The Performance recorder is incomplete..... etc. Even the laggy switching of performances suggest the firmware is pushing the hardware near its limitations.

Personally I find the switching between the performances on the Montage very fast. The lag never disturbed me. Also the Montage has the scene buttons (different type of scenes than the Fantom...) which allows switching very fast. Unfortunately it is not possible to store the keyboard Ctrl state with the scenes, if that was possible it would be much better. And any still perceived lag in switching between performances could probably be overcome with software changes. But even if not: Do you have a Fantom? How fast does it switch between the scenes? Is it totally without lag? None of the demos I have seen so far highlight this and clearly show that there is no lag.

I had added a couple of ideas to yamahasynth.ideascale.com regarding KBD CTRL, one being to allow for enabling/disabling it in Scene switching, and the other regarding allowing KBD CTRL on all 16 PARTs.
The first one which pertains most to your post above, could use a few more votes, so if you like either of these ideas, please 'Up Vote' them (see below) ... Yamaha are definitely watching and considering these ideas, as they have said so on this forum 😉

Add [KBD CTRL] to SCENE Mixing! (Montage/MODX)
https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Add-KBD-CTRL-to-SCENE-Mixing!-Montage-MODX/230456-45978

Expand KBD CTRL to 16 parts on the Montage/MODX
https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Expand-KBD-CTRL-to-16-parts-on-the-Montage-MODX/223218-45978

The one improvement that should be logical at this point is chaining Scenes together so at least users can create some type of running song arrangement. Many people interested in Montage have asked if Scenes will play consecutively or in a desired order- without having to manually push the buttons. This doesn't seem like it would be hard to implement and it would be an alternative to a full-blown sequencer, and I'm sure it would make a lot of people very happy.

... so if you like either of these ideas, please 'Up Vote' them (see below) ... Yamaha are definitely watching and considering these ideas, as they have said so on this forum 😉

Add [KBD CTRL] to SCENE Mixing! (Montage/MODX)
https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Add-KBD-CTRL-to-SCENE-Mixing!-Montage-MODX/230456-45978

Expand KBD CTRL to 16 parts on the Montage/MODX
https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Expand-KBD-CTRL-to-16-parts-on-the-Montage-MODX/223218-45978

I certainly did upvote them a long time ago 😉