If the Deepmind 12 or Uno synth sound better than the future ANX engine, then there is problem. (those are good synths) but for the money the Montage should outdo them with a 2023 VA engine. Dont you think?

I'm hoping the AN-X is a new, non-menu divey, fully knob/Slider equipped Synth in it's own right.

VA... I could not afford real Analogue.

I looked at Roland's Jupiter X and Juno-X. I was tempted, but turned off with their scalping Software Subscription business model (BMW and Audi are doing the same)... it makes me want to vomit.

Please Yamaha, give us a CS80x.

I looked at Roland's Jupiter X and Juno-X. I was tempted, but turned off with their scalping Software Subscription business model

I have a Jupiter Xm and a Fantom 7 and haven't had to pay for anything to use them so I don't know what you're alluding to?

I (thought I'd) heard that when you buy a Roland "X" Synth, you get some Synth Models included, but if you want others, you can't buy them, you have to "rent" them... I.e. continue paying a subscription. Which seems a bit nasty to me.

[quotePost id=119386]I (thought I'd) heard that when you buy a Roland "X" Synth, you get some Synth Models included, but if you want others, you can't buy them, you have to "rent" them... I.e. continue paying a subscription. Which seems a bit nasty to me. [/quotePost]

Nope. You just buy a lifetime key.

OK... I see lifetime keys mentioned on their site (understandably prices are not published). I eventually found the life key prices on SoundsEasy.com. I was misinformed.

Still, you have to keep your Roland Account active to continue using the software you bought... and a single product lifetime key is not cheap (>$200), and you get to use it, and nothing else, which will of course tempt you into paid subscription (after shelling out $3.5k on the hardware).

It still seems quite mercenary. I guess that's how Software companies do business these days. No free lunch.

This is easier for me to look at in terms of pricing:

https://www.roland.com/cloud/memberships?utm_campaign=rc_sitelink&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_content=sitelink&gclid=Cj0KCQiAveebBhD_ARIsAFaAvrGRqA3cFX7l3ZZUxsmHxGGQp65BU76xWDwtFOP4QynkK2879wGS21IaArPaEALw_wcB

Pricing for the various lifetime keys are listed. Virtual instruments are $70, $100, $130, or $150 (each) depending on the instrument.

The specific costs have been discussed previously in threads (in this forum) that deal more with the Fantom and derivatives. If you look at these as sound libraries then I don't see a big difference in Yamaha's collection of at-cost sound libraries vs Roland's "cloud" offerings. Roland's expansion packs serve double duty since they can be used in software form as a VSTish instrument on your computer - something unique to Roland when comparing Yamaha and Roland. For the full version of the VSTish solution - there's a price tag for it. The lite version is free and there's a middle tier that's only available through subscription but adds no additional cost to your subscription if you go that route.

Given there's a path for outright purchase - ignoring the technical differences (like VSTish use for Roland) the basic business model is the same for this side.

Past Yamahas had editors bundled an slightly more software support than we see today. Now most software is 3rd party and JM Tools is the advertised standard editor with its own price tag. Roland doesn't have a formal editor but the Zenology Pro software (at a hefty price lifetime license) is the closest to it. Lots of caveats there as Fantom users will attest to. All in all the general business model is similar with Yamaha's remaining software support probably edging out editing functionality while Roland's bests Yamaha in terms of playability (since it hosts expansion packs and your hardware sounds without the keyboard).

That Roland is monetizing software through subscriptions doesn't strike me as "worse" or "better" than Yamaha's approach where they do not (yet) do this. I have no idea if this will change. For outright purchase, supported by both vendors, they are generally on equal footing.

Just to round this out, my initial comments were based on my mistaken belief.

I had a cursory look at the System8 and the JunoX. The fact you can swap in/out different classic synth software, into the hardware "shell", is positively marketed... and attractive. I think they call it "Plugout".

Although I now understand I was mistaken, the thought of having to "rent" or "subscribe" to these plugouts, but never actually own them turned me off.

With Yamaha, it's a bit different. There are 3rd Party "Preset Packs" and "Software Support Tools". These are entirely optional, and a one-off purchase should you be inclined. This is an entirely normal state of affairs. For example, there are people selling Preset Banks for Strymons, or Boss GT1000, Line6 Helix etc.

Yamaha is not "Buy a MODX7 with AWM2 Engine, and have the option of renting an additional FM-X Engine for only $199/year".

It's a moot point, because I was wrong. If I had plumped for a System 8, I would probably have wanted another 3-4 Synth packs... which I now understand would cost me another $960, plus I'd still likely have to pay subscriptions for the extra support features.

In retrospect, the $199/year now doesn't seem like such a bad deal. My problem is, could I really justify it? I'm just a Synth hack, not a pro.

It's cool, Antony. No problem. I think even misconceptions lead to great conversations. Hope my tone didn't sound like I was raking you over the coals. Far from it. Just thought I'd chime in on my take which isn't far from yours actually. I'm no fan of the various subscription licenses I "have" to keep.

@Jason.... you are 110% good with me.

My long post was "me" explaining myself, after making an incorrect statement. I'm an honest guy and if I screw up, I'm the first to admit it.

I think Roland Cloud is "the way it is, and the way it will be". I have to resign to a world rapidly changing.

Just for clarification regarding the Roland Fantom ... If you were to buy the lifetime keys, is it true that you would need to buy each Model Expansions (=Virtual Instruments), such as a (D-50, TR-808, JUPITER-8, JX-3P & SH-101) for example? And then you would/could buy Sound Packs for those Model Expansion Virtual Instruments..!?
And regarding memberships, do you also need to pay for a monthly or yearly membership on top (or to start with) in order to use the Fantom (or at least in order to be able to purchase/user the Model Expansion Virtual Instruments)..?

When (or "if" lol) Yamaha release the AN-X engine on the Montage/MODX+, it would be interesting to see if they would rent it out as a monthly / yearly subscription, or if they would provide the engine for free (& maybe provide a certain number Preset Performances for it like they do with the AWM2 & FM-X engines), and then you would be able either program your own Performances that include the new AN-X engine &/or purchase additional AN-X libraries from 3rd party vendors like we can with the AWM2 & FM-X engines..!? Or would they start utilizing a monthly / yearly subscriptions based model with new/additional libraries for the AN-X engine..!?

[quotePost id=119341]there's gotta be another chip in the new one, and I suspect that's needed for more dynamic envelopes and newer synced LFOs, and better filters, and vastly better reverbs ;)[/quotePost]
I think the first clue was when the MODX+ was released and they expanded the FM-X polyphony. How can a single tone generator handle all that polyphony and remain more stable then the MODX ever was..!? If the MODX+ still only has 1 single tone generator, why does the Montage have 2 ? Hence my theory that the MODX+ does have a 2nd tone generator which could handle all the things you mentioned (especially a new state of the art shimmer reverb 😉 ) + be able to handle AN-X synthesis as well!

[quotePost id=119374]If the Deepmind 12 or Uno synth sound better than the future ANX engine, then there is problem. (those are good synths) but for the money the Montage should outdo them with a 2023 VA engine. Dont you think? [/quotePost]
I think what really makes those synths sound great are the effects. They take a simple sound and make it sound 100 times better by adding a chain of effects.
We can do the same on the Montage/MODX(+) but sometimes it means utilizing the 2 Insert effects for the PART, as well as heavy sends to the Var & Rev effects, and maybe even include a Master effect.

So, an AN-X engine would be interesting and great for the Montage/MODX+ in terms of competing with Roland and Korg, but Yamaha need to continue adding new effects (which I believe they will). With the Wave Folder & VCM Mini Filter / Booster, Yamaha have been adding new innovative effects. I think they need to continue adding new effects/enhancements that are useful for many applications, such as a Shimmer Reverb insert effect, but also ones that are ground breaking & innovative that other synths don't have & will give Yamaha synths a unique sound (such as with the Extended LFO) that no other synths can do, so that it will entice potential customers to purchase a Montage or MODX(+) in order to get that 'sound'!

[quotePost id=119424]
I think what really makes those synths sound great are the effects. They take a simple sound and make it sound 100 times better by adding a chain of effects.
We can do the same on the Montage/MODX(+) but sometimes it means utilizing the 2 Insert effects for the PART, as well as heavy sends to the Var & Rev effects, and maybe even include a Master effect.
[/quotePost]

I think that's being a little unfair to the Deepmind... have a listen to both how good the oscillators are without anything else, and how fun they are to mess with thanks to the dedicated controls.... @Antony, note:

https://youtu.be/OfkN1i7eqnY

[quotePost id=119424]
So, an AN-X engine would be interesting and great for the Montage/MODX+ in terms of competing with Roland and Korg, but Yamaha need to continue adding new effects (which I believe they will). With the Wave Folder & VCM Mini Filter / Booster, Yamaha have been adding new innovative effects. I think they need to continue adding new effects/enhancements that are useful for many applications, such as a Shimmer Reverb insert effect, but also ones that are ground breaking & innovative that other synths don't have & will give Yamaha synths a unique sound (such as with the Extended LFO) that no other synths can do, so that it will entice potential customers to purchase a Montage or MODX(+) in order to get that 'sound'![/quotePost]

Absolutely agreed, Yamaha needs to focus on that X-Factor, presuming AN-X == AN+FX.

Love the Wave Folder. I milk that thing way too much. It's made FM-X fun again, in whole new ways.

The VCM Mini Filter is a disappointment, I think. I expected that to be resonant in a good way. It's the exact opposite of that. And the little lag before it starts working, when chosen, is super annoying. Same with the Booster.

[quotePost id=119425][quotePost id=119424]
I think what really makes those synths sound great are the effects. They take a simple sound and make it sound 100 times better by adding a chain of effects.[/quotePost]

I think that's being a little unfair to the Deepmind... have a listen to both how good the oscillators are without anything else, and how fun they are to mess with thanks to the dedicated controls.... @Antony, note:

https://youtu.be/OfkN1i7eqnY [/quotePost]
Not sure I got my point across with the right wording but in saying 'really' what I meant was, that in addition to the ability to modify the simple sound via buttons/knobs/oscillators/etc., the effects really make them 'sound' great. Basically saying they have great sounding effects, but not trying to minimize their other functionality or abilities...just what I've seen/heard that impressed me the most personally in terms of sound.

I wouldn't normally take a basic mediocre sound and just use effects only to make it sound better, but I had watched a video a while back whereby they did that on a Deepmind synth and I thought it was pretty kool, so it was part of what inspired me to do this experiment on the Montage some time ago: https://soundcloud.com/dclowe/montage-shimmer