It could be the data in the Track. On the Motif XF sequencer, select a Track and take a look at the Event List. Remove all unnecessary data from the Tracks. Culprits include GM RESET command, System Exclusive messages, Bank Select/ Program Change events, Aftertouch, NRPNs, etc.

Thank you for the quick response. It seemed like a promising idea, but after some testing I found that the same problem still appears even if I am playing a pattern that is completely empty. However, I have now found a new clue and I think I am starting to understand more of what is going on.

The key is that when the Motif is in SONG mode and I rewind to zero on the AKAI DPS:

The AKAI DPS shows 0001:01:00 on its bar/beat/clock counter.
However, the slaved Motif XF shows 001:01:120 on its counter, every time.

It seems that the DPS locate to zero leaves the Motif (possibly both machines?) actually sitting at a position after the start of bar one, instead of right at the start. Then, with the Motif in SONG mode, when I hit play on the AKAI DPS, the two machines play in perfect time together, either because they both started from the same (wrong) position on the timeline and stayed together, or because SPP works to quickly pull them together in sync.

However, when the Motif is in PATTERN mode, it doesn't respond to locate commands or SPP from the AKAI DPS, so I have to manually return the Motif to zero, and this time it really goes to 001:01:000. And now when I hit play, the two machines (perhaps?) start from two different places on the timeline, leading to problems. I did an experiment by creating a note at 001:01:120 on the Motif in PATTERN mode and manually locating to that note before hitting play on the DPS. The two machines started in perfect time together (although once the 8 bar pattern looped around again, or once I changed pattern sections, a small timing error appeared).

If you've made it this far...does any of this make sense? I'm kind of confused myself, and maybe there's too much speculation in my description. If so, I apologise. Is this kind of thing something you've come across before? Any suggestions from here?

Thank you.

p.s. The AKAI DPS does have a facility for an offset time, but this is currently set to zero. I played around with some different values but it didn't seem to make any difference (perhaps this offset applies only to MTC sync scenarios?).

You should be using standard MIDI CLOCK if you are attempting to use Patterns.

The Motif XF can be an MTC slave (only) and can only slave to MTC while in SONG mode.

MTC is MIDI Time Code (SMPTE code formatted to go down a 5-pin MIDI connector). SMPTE is the Society of Motion Picture & Television Engineers - and is an anacronym for the Time Code they use. Basically, it references the Tempo in Beats Per Minute to Hours:Minutes:Seconds:Frames of film. Each device can run at an independent tempo - allowing you to speed up playback of one to match a cue point on the other.

For example, you have music that needs to have the big crescendo cymbal crash at a particular frame of the movie (when Jason jumps out from behind the curtains with a chainsaw). You have a 30 second piece of music for the build up but you want to cue the music so that it arrives at that crash at the precise frame. You can independently set the tempo of the music to match the film.

So when using MTC as your audio workstations master clock you set a tempo for it, then you must also set the tempo of the slave device - if you want them to sync you set it to the same tempo. They both will do the same math: BPM to Hr/Min/Sec/Frames - typical use is 30fps (frames per second).

MTC uses something called “Song Position Pointer” to locate where in the music you are. So when you fast forward your audio worstation, the Motif as MTC slave will count the position pointers to advance to the same location in the linear time line. The Motif XF can slave to MTC while in SONG mode (Song Position Pointer is required).

This is different from how standard MIDI Clock works. MIDI clock the master clock controls and the slave is automatically fixed to follow the tempo of the master. MIDI Clock can be used in Song mode or Pattern mode.

With any audio recorder there needs to be a way to define exactly where to begin counting. There is usually a certain amount of “roll time” between pressing play and the start of sending clock. Sorry, I don’t know and can’t offer you support on Akai products... but how does it establish when MIDI CLOCK starts being sent?

Do they recommend some kind of pre-roll time? The clocks are synchronized, they are disagreeing, by exactly a sixteenth note, where the start is. The ‘gears’ are locked in but offset by set amount. You have no Song Position Pointer to automatically locate the distance from the the start of count, because you’re in Pattern mode.

Manually, resetting to the top is necessary, and the Clock Start point must be played for the slave to sync.
You can understand with SPP it’s easy for you start playback any where in the entire recording, because of the linear nature of a Song, the midi data advances exactly the proper number of counts from the known start point. So that if you fast forward your Audio Recorder to measure 44 and hit play, the MTC slave would calculate how many counts that is since the start at its tempo, and begin playback (usually takes half a second or so to drop into sync).

With no SPP, and no linear structure in Pattern mode, the tempo will be set in the Master, the Slave tempo will completely conform. But there is not linear count for it locate — so playback is problematic. You must reset both devices, the audio recorder to sometime just before the MIDI Start command is sent; and the Pattern must be reset to Top to ensure it matches the MIDI Start command.

This reset must be done each and every time you rewind. You cannot, for example, start playback in the middle.

Question is: must you use Pattern mode?
Song mode (with SPP) allows you locate?

Contact Akai about how the unit deals with Clock issues.

Hi again,

Thank you for the input. I am using MIDI CLOCK. I have no problem controlling the transport in SONG mode. If I hit play at any position on the DPS, the Motif will play in time and from the correct position. (Side note: when locating to any position, I will always see the same 120 tick offset shown on the Motif time display.)

I'd like to use PATTERN mode, or at least PATTERN CHAIN mode when making songs in conjunction with the audio recorder. These features of the Motif can be handy, for all the reasons the engineers originally envisioned 🙂

Here's a different question: could I expect MIDI CLOCK sync to work correctly with both SONG and PATTERN mode if I bought a Yamaha hard disk recorder?

I ask because I have tried a number of different clock sources to drive the Motif XF already and the result has never been satisfactory across both SONG and PATTERN modes. These include the AKAI DPS recorder, a ROLAND VS2000CD recorder, and an Expert Sleepers MIDI device.

I see an AW4416 recorder available for sale in my country and am wondering whether this might solve my problems...

Thanks again for your responses.

Thank you for the input. I am using MIDI CLOCK. I have no problem controlling the transport in SONG mode. If I hit play at any position on the DPS, the Motif will play in time and from the correct position. (Side note: when locating to any position, I will always see the same 120 tick offset shown on the Motif time display.)

As I mentioned a couple of times, there is likely to be a time between starting the audio recorder and the slave device locking to sync. This is the nature of the audio recorder as a beast (as a master clock device). Again, Song mode provides Song Position Pointer that helps the two devices locate properly. You don’t get that in Pattern mode.

I'd like to use PATTERN mode, or at least PATTERN CHAIN mode when making songs in conjunction with the audio recorder. These features of the Motif can be handy, for all the reasons the engineers originally envisioned 🙂

Funny, but makes no sense. The only difference between a Pattern Chain and a Song, is that Song Position Pointer has been added. You need Song Position Pointer, I’m sure the engineers envisioned that when you need it that you’d use it. 🙂

Please see the following article (from years ago) on how this was dealt with in Yamaha Hard disk recorders... whether or not you (as an individual) will be able to successfully get this to work, I cannot say. But you give me little hope for success with your track record up til now.

The gear must be configured properly no matter who makes it.

Link: Power User on Synchronization w/AW and ext Sequencers

Your implication is puzzling to me. Was there an example in this thread of my gear being configured incorrectly? That would be most helpful to know.

Or maybe you just mean that my expectations weren't realistic?

In the course of this discussion, I found what looks like a quirk of the AKAI DPS recorder, and I accept that there's no further you can go with that. I don't think AKAI are even available to answer questions on this obsolete product. So if I want to use the Motif XF in PATTERN mode and easily sync it to a hardware recorder, I may have to look at something other than the AKAI machine.

I have tried my Roland VS2000CD recorder as MIDI clock master too. The results were as follows:

To summarize, the Roland can drive a QY700 in both PATTERN mode and SONG mode quite adequately, but it apparently can't drive the Motif XF sufficiently well in either. Actually, that is the reason I ended up buying the AKAI DPS machine to try. I didn't want to give up on the Motif XF.

Maybe I've been spoiled from my experience with the QY700 to think that syncing to MIDI clock and working in either mode should be possible without issues. Maybe there's some key difference between the QY700 and the Motif sequencers that I've missed? And maybe the Roland, like the AKAI, also has unique quirks that account for its particular behaviour with the Motif XF?

But in any case I'm here, someone who has bought PSR and 01V and QY(s) and RS and MOXF and Motif(s) and several other Yamaha products, asking you in a respectful way about the likely behaviour of the Motif with a Yamaha AW4416.

I would hope that you could respond without the dismissing personal tone.

Your implication is puzzling to me. Was there an example in this thread of my gear being configured incorrectly?

There is nothing in your thread that points to you ever having it setup properly. In order for synchronization of an Audio Workstation (hard disk recorder) and an external MIDI sequencer to play in synchronization, you must set a Clock Start point — I don’t know what the term Akai or Roland use, but you give no indication about how you setup this very critical point in your setup. I have referred to it several times (you give no indication you have done anything along this line). You made some settings and pressed play - and that’s it. As if you expect it to automatically work... what I’ve been asking about is how you have configured the recorder to count measures and beats. How have you configured things so that they count correctly... tempo maps, time signature changes are typically all able to be accounted for... within the Audio Recorder.

At first your delay was “more than a 16th note”, then it was exactly a 16th note... that seems to be a feature and not an arbitrary offset. Seems if you look in the documentation of your device there should be some recommendation about setting and using MIDI SYNC. Seems like an exact offset of 120 clocks ticks (a 16th note at 480 clock ticks per Quarter Note) would be for some purpose... (this is why I asked about it).

I asked if your Akai manual talks about any pre-roll or gives a warning to give start clock after a certain interval of time. The Audio Recorder’s ability to Start sending clock is based on a critical point at which a particular clock time (Hours, Minutes, Seconds) of the Audio Recorder equals the downbeat of Measure 1, Beat 1, Clock 000 of the slaved MIDI sequencer. Without that ... trouble. Everything is referenced back to that point. You have to have set a Time Signature, Tempo ... right? (All audio recorders hard disk devices must deal with these same issues... if your audio recorder (Master clock) is telling the XF (Slave device) to advance a 16th note perhaps there is a reason...

Sometimes folks unnecessarily blame the gear. I’m fairly confident that the Akai and the Roland both have methods to deal with this, if they both provide standard MIDI Clock Out. (Why put a MIDI jack on a product if it doesn’t work — it can only be there for this very purpose). Since you have yet to indicate you have done anything to set this critical start point, I have no reason to believe you know how to set that up... or even if you know that it needs to be setup. I certainly don’t know how to set it up on the Akai or the Roland.

The article I referenced (which I wrote almost two decades ago) goes into the details about setting the clocks to the same start time - dealing specifically with setting up the Measure/Beat counter, time signature, tempo map so that the Audio Recorder clock’s 00hr:00min:00sec equals the downbeat of the Sequencer.
It also addresses the Pattern vs Song mode conundrum (did you get a chance to read through it)?

Again in any of your previous attempts did you setup the Start Point of sync? Perhaps you did and didn’t think to post that you did... from my perspective, I’m looking for reasons as to why this 16th note offset. Nothing in the XF would cause this.

If no, you haven’t set this up, then let’s figure that out. If yes, please describe the process and see if the 120 clock ticks show up somewhere.

If you are trying to get me to say ... the Yamaha is the only Hard disk recorder to sync properly, I ain’t going there... I deal with too many people who “blame the gear”... and you are blaming your gear (whether you see it that way or not... first it’s the Akai and the Roland, and then, finally, it must be the XF because it never has worked for you, ever)... so everyone who has it working is just making it up, right? I can’t go there with you, sorry, I can’t — I’m too much of an optimist for that!

Not always a good reason to switch brands, if it is a “setup error”... I do not have enough information to know if you have setup correctly or incorrectly with the gear you own. If there is a “dismissing tone” it is a reaction to this — don’t buy the Yamaha AW and then do exactly what you’ve done with the Akai and Roland — it will not work on the Yamaha either. Does that make sense? Let’s NOT blame the gear (you’re better than that). Let’s assume when setup properly Sync is possible with any of them, okay. Sync is not a ‘secret sauce‘ that only occurs on this brand and not that brand... it’s simply not. It’s universal.

I’m quite sure they all have this capability. Having done support in this area (Hard disk audio recorders), Sync’ing them was baffling to the majority of musicians which is probably one of the reasons why no company makes them any more.

Clock synchronization with standard MIDI music gear is used to great effect in video and film production but seemed to be just a little too complex for the larger market of musicians with the home studio. There are only two states when in comes to Sync.

It either is in Sync or it is Not. ‘Small lags’ or ‘slight lags’ falls under: NOT Sync’d
Neither Akai, nor Roland, nor Yamaha, for that matter, were aiming for a a ‘small or slight lag’ when you correctly have things setup. Sync means working, in sync, as you say “perfect”.**. There is a brief moment after pressing the Audio recorder’s start button for the Sequencer to start... (called the ‘chase’) but by the time you hear it, it has sorted out where it is and is in “perfect sync“ **(redundant). I’m wondering is that precise 16th note offset has something to do with this startup time “chase”...

Sorry, but I don’t know how it is setup on your particular piece of gear... but I’m quite sure your inability to get it to properly sync is due to something missing Or setup incorrectly... but I cannot know this to a certainty with just the info given thus far.

You’d need to explain why you think you were so fortunate with the QY700 (a piece of gear I am very familiar with) — but again it sounds like it points to your understanding of the requirements. There needs to be a linear structure for Song Position Pointer to work between these the two devices — otherwise you are just free-wheeling.

The Audio Device, if it has the capability, should be able to identify for your external sequencer, what measure and what beat it is currently playing. In order to do this, YOU, the user must setup the sync of the counters. I’ll ask again, have you done this in any of your previous experiments? Set a Time Signature? Set a Tempo Map?
If the answer is no, this could be why you are getting the non-results you describe.
If yes, I’ll ask again: please, how is this setup?.... how does Akai or Roland deal with the clock start point?

I pointed you to an article that shows how this is setup — using the nearly twenty year old Yamaha hard disk recorders. Did you read through it? See if it sounds familiar to what you’ve done or similar to items in the documentation found in your Akai and Roland recorders... they all must deal with these same issues when Synchronization is the goal. Sync cannot be “pretty good” — it either is or isn’t.

Let us know.

Ok, thank you. I apologise that I didn't respond to your earlier questions about clock start time and didn't give full details of my setup. I'll attempt to rectify that here.

I'll also focus just on the AKAI DPS, in the spirit of not blaming the equipment and giving up, and also because this is the combination I'd most like to get working.

In my initial setup that led to me starting this thread, my settings were as follows.

The AKAI recorder had both 4/4 time signature and tempo set.

The AKAI recorder had been set as the MIDI clock master

The offset amount (which can be used to move the start of the 1st musical bar to a position other than absolute zero time) had been left at zero.

[attachment]AKAI project settings page [2].jpg[/attachment]

The settings on the Motif XF had been specified to make it slave to MIDI clock and accept sequencer control.

4/4 time signatures were set in Motif pattern and song

With these settings, full rewind on the AKAI DPS left the Motif song position at 001:01:120 as earlier described. Once play started, the two devices were in sync.

When using PATTERN mode, full rewind on the AKAI DPS followed by manual locate to start on the Motif XF followed by pressing play on the AKAI DPS led to the situation observed where the Motif played signficantly out of time with the AKAI (judged by quarter note metronome clicks).

My next post will include instructions relating to MIDI clock sync from AKAI. In a later post, I will describe the outcome of my tests attempting to setup a pre-roll period on the AKAI.

The following images capture the full instructions from the AKAI DPS manual relating to slaving a sequencer using MIDI clock, as well as the MIDI implementation chart.

The next post I will write after this will describe the outcome of my attempts to set a pre-roll time on the AKAI DPS recorder. It won't be long, but due to other work I might have to write this within a day or two, rather than immediately.

Take your time... but this is exactly what I was talking about. Let us know.

The offset amount (which can be used to move the start of the 1st musical bar to a position other than absolute zero time) had been left at zero.

”Absolute time“ is how the Recorder counts time on its drive from the point you push play
“Relative time“ is where your useful music data actually begins

Leaving this alone cannot be right. You need to offset the start point — where you want the Recorder to start counting Bars and Beats.
The Bar and Beat Counter should agree with where the Motif XF is located via Song Position Pointer.
If the Motif XF song data begins at measure 001, beat 01, clock 000 on its own counter, you need to have the Relative Time match that exact point on your Hard Drive. This spacing between Absolute and Relative Time is critical.

You do not start recording at Absolute Time... typically musician coordinate start with a count-in. It is a good habit, as recording engineer to leave room for this — it is important time for musicians, and should be documented in the original session. Anyone having to overdub to your audio recorder who needs to play on the first downbeat will require the count-in. If your Absolute Time = your Relative Time, it will be impossible for them to overdub. Allow for a pre-roll ... in the article I referenced you to, you can see how I created a two measure Pre-count before the measure 1 downbeat. (This pre-count is usually edited and left on the control room floor when the finished product is mixed down and released).

This stuff had to be there... the MIDI jack is meaningless without it, n’est pas?
You’re on your way!

Thanks for your patience. I will now describe the results I observed after using a time offset on the master device.

In the AKAI song settings, I set up an offset time of 4 bars.

On the main play screen of the AKAI, with relative time display enabled, as expected it showed the start of bar one as being some time after the start of the hard disk audio (this was confirmed to actually be the start of bar 5 in absolute time by briefly toggling the display).

------------
SONG MODE

When the AKAI was located to the start of bar one (relative time), the Motif in SONG mode went to 001:01:120.

Pressing play on the AKAI from this point, the two devices played in sync.

When the AKAI was fully rewound to absolute zero (the start of the hard disk audio), as expected it showed a negative relative time.

When the AKAI was fully rewound to this point, the Motif went to bar 1021.

Pressing play on the AKAI from this point, the Motif started playing from bar 1021 immediately, played in time for one bar, then stopped.

-------------
PATTERN MODE

Test one
The AKAI was located to the start of bar one relative time, then the Motif manually rewound to zero, then play was pressed on the AKAI.
Result: The two devices played out of sync with the same lag as previously heard (roughly a 16th note).

Test two
The AKAI was fully rewound to absolute zero (the start of the hard disk audio), then the Motif manually rewound to zero, then play was pressed on the AKAI.
Result: The Motif started playing an 8th note after the AKAI master, and this delay persisted.

-------------

Going into this, I had an expectation that play would not be initiated on the slave device until the master reached the (relative time) start of bar one, at least in SONG mode. So this result was contrary to my expectations. The new 8th note degree of delay also came as a surprise.

Would you have any suggestions on settings changes/things to try from here?

Thank you.

So your first significant musical event starts before the Absolute Time ... really? How?
That setting makes no sense — does it to you?

Absolute time vs Relative Time. What’s your understanding of these?

I understand absolute time to be referenced to the earliest possible point on a tape or a hard disk equivalent, or a master device more generally.

I understand relative time to be referenced to an arbitrarily selected point on the tape or hard disk equivalent.

In this case, I understood I was setting things up so the 'tape' could roll for a short time before the relative 'start point' would be reached and trigger playback on the slave device.

If I have this wrong, I am ready to learn.

I don't intend to have any musically significant event before the start of absolute time. I'm not sure what in particular you might be referring to from my latest post.

I understand relative time to be referenced to an arbitrarily selected point on the tape or hard disk equivalent.

so is your relative time reference on the hard drive or is it off the edge of the paper... how can it be a negative number?

You really need to contact Akai or someone that knows Akai... to my thinking... the Relative Time should start several seconds after the Absolute Time — NOT BEFORE.

You want your first “musically significant” event to happen when both clocks begin counting in earnest.

“Musically significant” means musically significant - it can be MIDI, it can be audio, if it’s important for the listener to hear. There can be no musically significant events BEFORE Absolute Time...