Motif XF is connected to MR with FireWire and MR is connected to the PC with FireWire. Should both XF and MR be connected to PC directly with FW or is it better to daisy chain or does it make no difference?

It makes no difference.
The Motif XF is not connected to the MR816CSX via firewire (as strange as that sounds). Yes, you may physically have the firewire cable connected from the Motif XF to the MR816CSX but the Yamaha Steinberg FW driver is a peer-to-peer driver, meaning each device is actually connected to the computer, directly.

The daisy-chain is simply a convenient way to pass the signal along. It is a “THRU” situation… signal does not stop in the device in-between… it simply passes through on the way to the destination.

S/PDIF Coaxial cable connected from Digital Out to S/PDIF in on MR. Is this necessary? Initially, I could not monitor anything, so I think I need the S/PDIF cable for audio. If FireWire is all I need, then great, but I'm not sure about that.

You are correct in that you need the SPDIF connection in order to optimally monitor the Motif XF. The FW connection is digital (you can never hear digital audio, it must be converted to analog in order to be heard). The FW connection that passes THRU the MR816CSX on its way to the computer is sufficient for you to record the Motif XF signal, what the SPDIF connection will do is give you Direct Monitor pathway for your Motif XF signal. This will allow you hear what you play on the Motif XF latency-free. The signal will go from the MR *direct* to you speakers.

Generally, you will want to have this Direct Monitoring path available. Any signal that goes through the computer will be slightly delayed (late). Direct Monitor lets you listen with zero delay to your original signal. While monitoring this Direct path, you can “mute” the audio traversing the computer during the original record by Muting the target Audio Track. You are only interested in hearing the signal going to the computer on PLAYBACK. The Audio Track “m” (mute) does not prevent the signal from being recorded, it simply stops the signal from returning to the audio interface and the monitor speakers (post recording).

My thought is to use the MR for the output to my monitor speakers and this would be the case if I am playing the Motif, other synths, or other instruments. So, I guess I'm saying that I'm connecting everything to the MR. But how does this work in Cubase under STUDIO SETUP/AUDIO CONNECTIONS? is the MR always listed as my INPUTS and OUTPUTS?

Yes. The computer will be looking for audio coming in from the audio interface. If the DX7 is plugged into the MR816CSX to channels 5 and 6, while you know that’s the DX7, the only thing the computer and Cubase care about is, this is audio coming in on the MR816CSX Inputs 5/6.

The role of the Audio Interface is take IN audio (be it digital or analog) — convert the analog signal to digital and send it TO the computer. Its other role is take audio being played back on the computer and convert it back to analog signal that can be handled by your Monitor Speakers. The small amount of time the computer takes to do that is called the latency. Because the arriving digital signal is time stamped by the computer, Cubase places the audio precisely where it belong for playback (Delay Compensation), but during the record operation the signal is several milliseconds late.

Typically, this latency is minimized by your Buffer Size setting. When set properly you should have less than 20ms of latency (the lower the better). Single digital latency should be available on most systems. When your latency is single digit ms you will not be able to detect any delay. Many folks misunderstand this statement so I’ll explain. When your signal is converted from analog to digital, recorded and then sent to the DAW Out where it is converted from digital to analog to feed the speakers… say that takes 6ms. Many say they can hear that… but what they can hear is if two signals are played simultaneously, 6ms apart. Well, yes, everyone can hear that. But that is not what we are talking about here. There are to pathways from the XF to the Speakers… one is Direct (zero latency), and the other takes 6ms to arrive at the speakers… you only monitor one or the other, never both. Now, as a disclaimer: some people can feel a 6ms delay — never doubt them (but a blindfold test will quickly thin the number of people claiming they can). Detecting two signals 6ms apart - everyone can do that. But we are talking about monitoring one signal delayed by 6ms. Most musicians will want to monitor themselves (latency free) so give them just the Direct Monitor feed.

You can avoid having to monitor latency by Direct Monitoring. You would only choose to monitor the latent signal when you are further processing the signal with computer-based plugins during the record process (this is the reason most plugin effects are added post recording). Latency is a complete non-issue during playback and mixing.

Cubase allows you to name the “AUDIO CONNECTION” INPUTS, if you desire. But I recommend you use the numbers — reason: as you begin it seems like a good idea to name your inputs. The reason you see every studio you’ve ever been in have the inputs simply Numbered… is because they realize that Inputs 5 and 6 might have the DX7 plugged in today, and they might be used for something entirely different tomorrow or in the next hour — when you have other musicians coming over, it is best to stay flexible.

Instead of naming the INPUTS, be sure to name the Tracks that they are connected to… you’ll realize the Track Name is important, the number input it came in on is not so important once you’ve recorded.

You probably have it already but be sure to get the MR816CSX EDITOR software. The MR EDITOR is the main EDITOR (mixer) to control the MR816CSX, you don’t use it when you are using Cubase, because this functionality is built-into Cubase. But what if you don’t use Cubase (at all), wouldn’t it be silly of Steinberg to not allow you to use their hardware? (rhetorical question)… You can use the MR816CSX with any DAW software simply by using the MR Editor - you can set it up to work standalone.

When using the XF with a computer, I know that there are settings that need to be made; such as setting MIDI to FW and setting Local Control to off I also understand that templates for the XF are available in Cubase, but I have not experimented with those yet. When I get set-up I can study those configurations.

Local Control = Off, but only when your goal is to record MIDI. LOCAL CONTROL should be On when playing the Motif XF and recording audio… just to be clear.

Play the Motif and other instruments as standalone and monitor them directly. In this case, I would not want to use a PC. But would I still need to turn on the PC and make settings on the MR just to monitor?

If you want to use the MR816CSX away from your computer, the last settings you configure will persist.

This means the setup you configure remains between power cycles - so you can configure the MR for use where you will be completely away from your computer, (like if you want to gig live with the MR as your mixer). You can take just the MR to job and leave the computer home where it is safe from beer and other gig potential tragedies 🙂

And from page 44:
Using the MR816 CSX/MR816 X without a computer
Using the MR Editor on a computer enables you to store mixing balance and other related settings to the MR816 CSX/MR816 X. This settings are available even if the power of the MR816CSX/MR816 X is turned off and then back on again. Accordingly, you can use the MR816 CSX/MR816 X as a standalone mixer or D/A - A/D converter without the use of a computer after the necessary settings on the MR Editor or Cubase have been completed.

One example I can think of that I want to avoid is: Without an audio interface, I have had to unplug one studio monitor from my motif and plug it into my DX7. I am hoping I can avoid that scenario.

Yikes! Don’t ever do that again 🙂 you could have simply plugged the DX7 outputs to the A/D inputs on the Motif XF.

But as you can see above the MR is designed to be used with, or without, the computer. Some of the features of the original mLAN FW system could not be prevented by the computer companies… they hated the fact that Yamaha mLAN allowed you to configure the system with a computer but then it could run in the absence of the computer (naturally they wanted the computer to be center of everything). Fortunately, you can do that as outlined above.

It’s good to hear someone still out there using the FW bus communication, from 2003-2016 it was how I did everything audio…
If you run into issues, please post back here. And do not worry about the length or if you are asking questions previously asked, the purpose of this site is about questions on using the gear!

Thanks for the questions. Be sure to visit the Steinberg YouTube channel for videos on MR and CC121…

Thank you for your thoughtful and informative response!

The way the firewire connection works makes sense to me. I did suspect that it would not matter whether I connected the firewire from both the XF & MR directly to the computer, or daisy chain them. I suppose the only thing I would need to consider is how long the firewire cable runs are. I don't have an issue with long runs, so I'm OK there.

I know that firewire is an older technology, but I already have the XF and MR and it made sense to me to get them working together if I can. i realize I could also use a USB connection from the XF to the PC, but if I want to use USB connections throughout, then I would need to get a newer USB interface, like a UR series interface. Are there advantages or disadvantages of sticking with firewire? What can be said about a USB only setup and USB transfer rates? I believe USB can also transfer both Audio and MIDI, but not certain about that. I think I would only make a switch to USB if I bought a Montage, but I want to work with what I have for now, which I think is pretty great gear!

Good to know that I do in fact need the SPDIF connection to the MR, and this provides a Direct Monitor pathway - it makes sense just like it makes sense that I need the analog outs on the XF to monitor it. Your explanation of how direct monitoring works is very helpful, and it does seem like what I would want to have the ability to do. But... if I wish to record a Voice from the XF (or any other instrument for that matter) into Cubase and also wish to process that signal further, then I will in fact be monitoring with latency. if I understand that correctly, then it makes sense because I would want to hear the processed signal. Do I have that right? Are there other scenarios where I would NOT want to monitor directly?

I need to do some studying on how to set-up INPUTS and OUTPUTS in Cubase. I was getting confused because I thought if I am playing the tone generator in the XF, I needed to select the Motif XF in AUDIO CONNECTIONS, but it appears that I need to select the MR816CSX instead. I think this would be the case in all scenarios, but I am having trouble understanding how all these connections work and really being able to visualize the signal path. I will see what i can comprehend from reading the setup guide in the Cubase manual, but it's not an easy learning curve for me.

When I try this direct monitoring approach, even when working within Cubase, i will keep in mind that I need to mute the track. I'm going to need to wrap my head around this, but I'm sure it will come as I spend time with it. I think I just need start making some settings and I will sort it out. In any case, i do not think that latency is an issue for me. With buffer set at 256 samples, latency was in the single digits, so i think I'm in good shape there.

Going back to AUDIO CONNECTION INPUTS, I like your suggestion of using numbers in lieu of named inputs. That way, they will always correspond to an actual input on the MR. On that note, I have one Digital Input (SPDIF from XF) and the remaining inputs are Analog inputs. In MR Editor, I can see that SPDIF connection and can see that I can adjust input volume there.I would logically leave analog inputs 1 & 2 open on the front panel for accepting guitars or mics. Then I can simply start allocating the other inputs for my vintage synths, like the DX7. Its single mono output could go to input 3, 4, 5 or 8 - wherever i choose. And then a synth with stereo outs could go to any unused pair. Yes, I did download and install MR Editor, and it is where I made initial settings on the MR as per the user manual. But I need to double check those as I'm not sure I make the connections correctly. Anyway, that is where I would need to set the INPUTS & OUTPUTS for the MR, correct? Then, where it gets confusing again is that I can make additional settings for the MR and signal routing in Cubase. I was hoping that i could find a checklist or checklists that go line by line for different setup scenarios in Cubase. Wishful thinking, I suppose as there are just too many set-up possibilities. Again, I will spend time with the manual, and hope not to go down a rabbit hole...

In summary:

Firewire to PC connected as I wish, either directly or daisy chained

SPDIF cable from Motif XF to MR816 for direct monitoring of XF

Decide on where my analog inputs to MR will go - for DX7 and other external gear. Make note of those input numbers.

Use MR Editor to set-up INPUTS and OUTPUTS ON MR816CSX for use without a computer. Settings saved upon closing. Then I could play and monitor any of my instruments without relying on the PC.

Start working with STUDIO SETUP and AUDIO CONNECTIONS in Cubase. This is where I can name the inputs on the MR as 1,2,3, etc. Your logic regarding Numbered Inputs and Named Tracks makes good sense! This is also where I started getting very confused regarding setting up OUTPUT BUSES. I was also trying to use Control Room. I know this is an XF forum so I don't want to get too far off base, but the main thing I'm trying to do is to get the XF up and running with Cubase to take advantage of the integration they have built-in. If at any point during this discussion, you feel that I need to direct my questions to a Cubase forum, please let me know and I will be happy to do that.

The latest Yamaha Steinberg FW Driver is selected as the ASIO driver.

Buffer size set at 256 and seems fine.

Local control: OFF only when recording MIDI, like when I use the XF as a controller for Cubase. Or if I'm using the XF as a controller for the DX7, and wish to hear only the DX7 tone generator and record into Cubase. Local control ON if recording a Voice, Song or Pattern into Cubase. One might ask why use the DX7 and not just use "Dexed" or another FM soft synth? The gritty digital to analog converters, the old guy might say...

i will visit the Steinberg You Tube Channel for additional information on Cubase, MR & CC121.

Thanks again for your help. I will see how far I can get with this information and will post other questions if they seem relevant to the discussion.

B Lee

I know that firewire is an older technology, but I already have the XF and MR and it made sense to me to get them working together if I can. i realize I could also use a USB connection from the XF to the PC, but if I want to use USB connections throughout, then I would need to get a newer USB interface, like a UR series interface. Are there advantages or disadvantages of sticking with firewire? What can be said about a USB only setup and USB transfer rates? I believe USB can also transfer both Audio and MIDI, but not certain about that. I think I would only make a switch to USB if I bought a Montage, but I want to work with what I have for now, which I think is pretty great gear!

The Motif XF (2010) pre-dates Multi-channel USB audio. The XF with an FW16E gives you 16 Audio bus outputs from the synth. The XF does only MIDI via USB. The recording options with the FW16E are vast, particularly in larger music production situations. Your ability to isolate instruments, even separate outputs on drum sounds, makes the FW audio option the more flexible choice.

Good to know that I do in fact need the SPDIF connection to the MR, and this provides a Direct Monitor pathway - it makes sense just like it makes sense that I need the analog outs on the XF to monitor it. Your explanation of how direct monitoring works is very helpful, and it does seem like what I would want to have the ability to do. But... if I wish to record a Voice from the XF (or any other instrument for that matter) into Cubase and also wish to process that signal further, then I will in fact be monitoring with latency. if I understand that correctly, then it makes sense because I would want to hear the processed signal. Do I have that right? Are there other scenarios where I would NOT want to monitor directly

You have this correct. If you are processing the XF with VST Effects, you will need to be at the latency end of monitoring — but don’t fear that… you will know if your system cannot handle it. The more CPU intensive the plug-in effect, the greater the latency; but you have to try it to know. The beautiful thing about the XF is you two Insertion Effects that can be used via the assignable FW Outputs.

Mostly, you want to monitor directly. If you are processing and (naturally) want to hear what your doing, you monitor post the DAW Audio Track, and defeat the XF sending the normal Direct Monitor Out signal. This will let you determine if it is doable or simply impossible to play. Mileage varies with the VST Effect plugin…

When I try this direct monitoring approach, even when working within Cubase, i will keep in mind that I need to mute the track. I'm going to need to wrap my head around this, but I'm sure it will come as I spend time with it. I think I just need start making some settings and I will sort it out. In any case, i do not think that latency is an issue for me. With buffer set at 256 samples, latency was in the single digits, so i think I'm in good shape there.

Excellent. Here’s what is going on, there are two audio pathways from the synth to your speakers. Both are active simultaneously.

The first one send the analog audio directly to the speakers… you are clearing a direct path for this signal by setting up Direct Monitor options.
The second path is FW (digital) which must go through the computer and then return to the audio interface before going to the Monitor speakers.

Greetings and thanks,
Firewire sounds like a great option and I have it! No need to buy anything.
I look forward to the direct monitor option and then hearing the difference between direct and with latency. It will be interesting to see how I perceive it.

I thought I would try a simple set up this evening. This is what I did:

Turned on the PC, just in order to open MR Editor and make some settings on the MR.
Turned on the Motif XF and the MR 816.
Opened MR Editor
MR recognized and main window appears.
SPDIF icon appears and is activated
OUTPUTS 1 & 2 are selected as outputs and connected to Power Monitors with balanced cables, TRS
I pulled up a Performance in the XF.
I was able to adjust volume in the MR editor, both the slider for SPDIF and also the master volume. Both had to be increased to some level in order to hear the monitors.
BUT, that sound is distorted. There is a distinct sound which could be described as a "very high zee with a lisp".
And, I was unable to adjust the volume on the XF.
I attempted different combinations of levels for volume and master but could not achieve a clean sound.
I saved the settings & closed MR Editor and got the same result.
I turned off the monitors, then the MR & XR and finally the PC, as I should.
I restarted only the XF and MR.
Still the same issue with poor signal. And volume still cannot be controlled by the XF. MR is taking over my studio...hmm
I turned XF and MR off and re-booted XF. I connected the right monitor speaker directly to XF and it responded normally, with clear, proper sound and volume control.
I wondered if the SPDIF cable is incorrect, but verified it is a Digital Coaxial Cable with the proper RCA connectors. It's not a brand name cable, but I don't think it's the cable. I have been wrong before.
Stuck in Lodi (not literally) and know there is a way out somehow.
I'm not discouraged, but I am perplexed. And I have not even tried to do something with XF & Cubase yet!

I will attempt to upload a screenshot of the MR main window using the link below. I will also upload a screenshot of the XF connection window as viewed in XF Editor.
That said, I thought there was a way to insert a picture into the text body. Is that an option and if so could you please explain how?
Also, I thought I understood how to add portions of a prior reply into the body of text, but the "quote" option grabs all the text from the prior posting, but I'm not sure I do.

Maybe this piece of text taken from the troubleshooting portion of the MR816 Operation Manual goes through as intended? Highlighted?

Noise is produced.
Settings on the MR816 CSX/MR816 X and connections
• Is the master volume level of the MR816 CSX/MR816 X set
too low?
Lower the volume of the monitor speakers (powered speakers)
to the minimum, then raise the master volume level of
the MR816 CSX/MR816 X to high. After that, adjust the volume
of the monitor speakers as desired.
• There may be a noise-inducing device (such as a device
containing a power inverter, etc.) near the cables. Move all
cables away from any possible sources of noise.
• Confirm whether or not the Word Clock settings on the
MR816 CSX/MR816 X and the connected devices are correct.

Oh, I forgot to mention. I did try to lower the master volume and monitor speaker volumes, then raised master to high. Then SPDIF volume up. A slight increase of volume on one monitor and I could tell it would be insanely loud. Something is not right with the way I am interpreting this troubleshooting point. thanks again

Sorry Brian, I no longer have a FW setup in my studio and cannot troubleshoot this for you. You may want to reach out to Steinberg for support on the MR816CSX and setting the levels — I can tell you that the SPDIF is a digital output and will not be affected by the (analog) Main Volume slider of the XF. What goes out digitally is the sum of all the individual channels… these all travel out from the XF from [UTILITY] > [F1] GENERAL > [SF1] PLAY > Tone Generator “Volume” = 127 (normally this is set to 127).
[F2] I/O — Here you can set the audio output levels +6dB or +0dB

Hi Bad Mister, and thanks so much for your reply - you are too kind for taking time to follow-up on this. As it turns out, I was ultimately able to solve the issue. I have been working with a new PC, with a fresh Windows 10 install, fresh Cubase install, all new drivers, XF Editor, MR Editor, Extension, etc. Since I was preoccupied with getting the PC all set up, I was in the habit of powering on the PC first, and then all my other gear. I think the PC was having trouble finding the drivers or rather the drivers were having trouble finding the outboard equipment. I say this because when I powered on the PC after all the other equipment, the set-up worked flawlessly! I even plugged a guitar into the MR816CSX and it sounded like my guitar! So, now I just need to understand how to configure the inputs and outputs, including output volume in the MR using MR Editor. Then, I'll be looking into how to set everything up in Cubase. It's all a bit of a learning curve for me, but I will just try to be as systematic as I can about it. Thanks again for your help with this!
Best Regards, Brian