In Song Mode on Moxf Sequencer solo playing Full Concert Grand have more echo or delay or reverb than in a Voice Mode.

It is normal?

Yes, it is. Here’s what’s happening. In VOICE, you can play one program at a time. Each Voice has 2 Insertion Effects, plus it has exclusive use of the System Effects (Reverb and Chorus) plus it is the only sound going through the Master Effect.

When you place that same VOICE into a Part of a Performance or into a Part of a Song/Pattern, it shares the System, and Master Effects with others. In a Performance it’s shares the mixer with 3 other Parts, in a Song/Pattern with 15 other Parts.

The Performance and Song/Pattern Modes are where there is a mixer, each Part contains one Voice, and that Part is like one instrument channel on the mixer.

When the VOICE is placed in a Song Mixing, it brings along the 2 Insertion Effects as assigned in the Voice programming — the INSERTION EFFECTS are apart of the Voice. The Insert Effects are like the instrument’s own personal effect processors. No other instrument uses a Part’s Insert Effect... the Part’s output is, literally, inserted into this effect -x no other instrument uses this effect.

The SYSTEM EFFECTS work like Auxiliary Sends on a mixing console...all 16 Parts share Sends into the same Reverb chamber and Time Delay (Chorus). This makes sense as the System Effects’ job is to recreate the room acoustics that all of the instrument are in together. These are not the personal property of any one Part, think of the Reverb and Chorus (System) effects as apart of the band’s mixing console.

So when you move a Voice to a Part of a SONG, it brings along its 2 Insertion Effects, but it inherits the System Effects that you choose for the entire MIXING setup. If you set the Reverb Type to the same as it was set to on the Full Concert Grand you can make it sound exactly the same.

But why would you. The System Effects you choose for the Song Mixing, will apply to all 16 Parts... remember each Part has a Rev Send and Chorus Send. Your job will be to determine how much reverb you want to apply when other instruments are added.

If you are playing an acoustic piano at home, then you go to the local club or to Carnegie Hall... while you might be able to bring your piano, you will not be able to bring along the room acoustics of your home. You will inherit the room acoustics of the local club or of Carnegie Hall. In fact, each musician in you band can bring two personal Effects (inserts) but you all must use the Aux send of the mixer to apply Reverb.

Extra Credit:
Knowing about how the Effects are deployed is going to be important. But always remember: and instrument played alone sounds different when you put it in a group of instruments. How it sounds alone is of little use when you combine it with other instruments. How it sounds in its new environment is all that matters.

Here is an article, that explains how the Effect processing and routing work within the MOXF

MOXF Introducing the Effects

Thank you very much for help.

Even when is only one instrument (Full Concert Grand) in Song Mode and only piano play, it must be a different reverb in compare to the same piano in Voice Mode?

If with my Moxf is something wrong? :

Moxf show in Voice Mode on the screen that Full Concert Grand reverb is Rev-X Hall but is R3 Hall in my opinion (I compare with others pianos). When I change in Voice Mode Rev-X Hall to R3 Hall - nothing change in sound Full Concert Grand, but when I back to Rev-X Hall - sounds different like in a Song Mode.

Moxf show me Rev-X Hall in a Voice Mode Full Concert Grand, but play R3 Hall... Do you have the same?

Even when is only one instrument (Full Concert Grand) in Song Mode and only piano play, it must be a different reverb in compare to the same piano in Voice Mode?

Sorry, you didn’t understand my answer. Yes. Of course it is different. The “Full Concert Grand” as found in VOICE Mode was programmed by Yamaha programmers.
The VOICE includes two Insertion Effects:
Insertion A = VCM EQ 501
Insertion B = Damper Resonance

Yamaha also programmed two System Effects
Reverb = Rev-X Hall (send amount = 8) small room defined by Rev Time = 2.3 seconds, Initial Delay = 4.8ms
Chorus = 2 Modulator (send amount = 0)

This, as programmed by Yamaha. The Insertion Effects are apart of the “Full Concert Grand”. They will automatically accompany the “Full Concert Grand” when you use it in a Song Mixing setup.

The System Effects responsible for recreating the room acoustics for the piano, are NOT brought along... they are technically NOT apart of the piano instrument. Think of the “Full Concert Grand” in VOICE mode as the piano player sitting in their home living room. If they were to take that piano to the recording studio the “VCM EQ 501” and the “Damper Resonance” Effects would be considered part of the piano, and will automatically go with the piano to the studio.

When you place “Full Concert Grand” into a Song Mixing setup, the “VCM EQ 501” and the “Damper Resonance” are automatically brought along, but the recording studio has different room acoustics. As soon as you activate the “Full Concert Grand” in the MIXING setup notice your System Effects are now different. The piano is in an entirely different room. So Yes, it sounds different.

Fifteen other musicians Parts 2-16 must share these new room acoustics... the System Effects are now different. All 16 Parts share the room they are in. You can match the settings of the Reverb but that would be placing the other instrument in the piano player’s home living room. Think it through — how could each instrument bring their practice space (their home acoustics) to the recording studio. All musicians must be in the same room - this is how we listen to music. All the musicians are in the same room. They all cannot bring their home acoustics with them!!!

The Reverb Send by default in Song Mode is set to 12 (not 8); the Reverb Time increases to 3.5 seconds, the Initial Decay balloons to 67.8ms, by default.
The Chorus Send by default in Song Mode is “G Chorus” and still set you 0

I don’t know how I can make the physics of this clear to you but when you play piano alone (Voice mode) you are the only instrument in the room... when you go to the recording studio you must share the space with 15 other potential sounds. The Initial Decay represents how much time sound must travel before encountering a wall surface. This gives you a feel for the size room you are hearing the piano.

This gives you an idea of the size of the room. Sound travels at 1100 feet per second.... if it travels for 4.8ms before encountering a wall surface, you get feel for the small size of this space... versus when in Song Mixing your Initial Decay is 67.8ms... a much larger space, indeed. So you will definitely hear that difference. The ear and brain can detect even the most minute changes in the reverberation time and the distance of the surfaces. This is how you are able to immediately analyze sounds in your environment. You use both the left and right ears to detect distance and direction. Too much reverb sounds as completely wrong as having no Reverb. We require some distance between us and the sound source (Reverb gives us that necessary sense of distance).

Please read the article for a better idea of what is going on...

Thank you very much for help. I understand know... Please tell me if on MODX is the same situation?

Please tell me also:

Moxf show in Voice Mode on the screen that Full Concert Grand reverb is Rev-X Hall but is R3 Hall in my opinion (I compare with others pianos). When I change in Voice Mode Rev-X Hall to R3 Hall - nothing change in sound Full Concert Grand, but when I back to Rev-X Hall - sounds different than before a minute in a Voice Mode.

Moxf show me Rev-X Hall in a Voice Mode Full Concert Grand, but play R3 Hall...

Do you have the same? If with my Moxf is something wrong at above aspect?

Moxf show in Voice Mode on the screen that Full Concert Grand reverb is Rev-X Hall but is R3 Hall in my opinion (I compare with others pianos). When I change in Voice Mode Rev-X Hall to R3 Hall - nothing change in sound Full Concert Grand, but when I back to Rev-X Hall - sounds different than before a minute in a Voice Mode.

When you change the assigned Effect, all the settings return to a default setting.

When you recall “Full Concert Grand” initially, it is recalled as programmed by Yamaha:
Rev-X Hall = as programmed in “Full Concert Grand”
RevTime = 2.3s
InitDelay = 4.8ms
HPF = 90Hz
LPF = 5.6kHz
Diffuse = 10
Room Size = 29
Hi Ratio = 0.8
Low Ratio = 0.7
Decay = 26

now you changed the Reverb Type to R3 Hall and then change it back to Rev-X... please the change is OBVIOUS!!! And quite normal... because you have recalled a different Reverb Preset. These Presets serve as programming starting points. Say you have never programmed a digital Reverb before, by providing these “starting points” Presets with each Effect Type, Yamaha makes it easy for the beginner to get close to a variety of commonly used settings.

Say that you want it to sound like a piano in a big cathedral... if you don’t know how to digitally *shape* the room using these technically named parameters, you can simply look for a Preset name that comes close to your desire... for example, the Rev-X Hall Preset called “Church”, resets the parameters to mimic a large Hall with high ceilings and reverberant surfaces (more wood than rugs).

The “Basic” preset is the basic starting point for programming with Rev-X Hall. Whomever programmed the Full Concert Grand (Scott Plunkett) started with the “Basic” Preset and made several changes to it, fashioning a smaller room, and then stored those changes to what became the Factory “Full Concert Grand”.

The original starting point BEFORE Scott took to programming were as follows
Rev-X Hall = default settings for the Rev-X preset called “Basic”
RevTime = 3.5s
InitDelay = 67.8ms
HPF = 90Hz
LPF = 5.6kHz
Diffuse = 10
Room Size = 29
Hi Ratio = 0.8
Low Ratio = 0.7
Decay = 55

These are the default settings for the Rev-X Hall when you select the Preset = Basic

Call up the factory “Full Concert Grand”
Press [EDIT]
Press [F6] EFFECT
Press [SF5] REVERB
Change the Rev-X Hall Preset from “Basic” to “Church”
This has a different starting point for the Rev-X Hall parameters:
Rev-X Hall = Church
RevTime = 4.0s
InitDelay = 30.0ms
HPF = 90Hz
LPF = 12.0kHz
Diffuse = 10
Room Size = 31
Hi Ratio = 0.8
Low Ratio = 1.2
Decay = 57

If you were now to change the Preset back to “Basic” you recall the factory default for the Basic starting point. Not Scott’s version.
If you then press the [EDIT-COMPARE] button...(flashes) while it shows you the stored values as programmed by the Yamaha programmer, Scott Plunkett.

Btw - the ProR3 Reverb has a different quality than does the Rev-X?

Thank you very very much for help.

I check ProR3 Reverb when i return home and will tell what I hear in compare to Rev-X.

Please tell me If MODX has the same situation with effects? Different in Voice Mode compare to Song Mode in SEQ?

I think aboute buying MODX too...

The MODX does not have Voice Mode.

Ok. But if I put piano in a sequencer recording, it sounds the same or reverb effects or others changes like in Moxf?

Btw - the ProR3 Reverb has a different quality than does the Rev-X?

I don't have ProR3 Reverb in Full Concert Grand reverbs settings, it is ok?

I have only no effect, rev-x hall, R3 Hall, spx hall, rev-x room, R3 Room, spx room, R3 Plate, spx stage, space sim.

In my opinion Full Concert Grand with using Yamaha FC3A sustain pedal (half mode or normal) playing only piano, souds the best when I start playing in a Voice Mode (not too much reverb for me) second place when I change to R3 Hall (a little more reverb) and 3 place when I change to Rev-X Hall with defult settings (to much reverb for mee) (and this settings are in Song Mode). I compare only this 3 reverbs.

In my opinion when I press Voice Mode Full Concert Grand, without changing anything, in compare with 2 reverbs that I wrote above, souds the best becouse sound with Sustain Pedal has natural deep without too much reverb. Piano is more detailed than in a Song Mode (Rev-X Hall default) or R3 Hall (second place).

Ps

I compare this in Voice Mode.

Maybe I copy Voice Mode settings to Song Mode.

If you play an acoustic piano, concerning a digital recreation, you must consider emulating the instrument itself and then separately the environment in which it is being heard... there are sounds associated with the instrument itself, and there is the sound of the piano in the room it’s in.

If you are in a room with rugs on the floors and walls versus being in a large room with high arching ceilings and lots of wood, these room environments will affect what we refer to as the externals (the room acoustics). This is handled by effects called SYSTEM EFFECTS. These include the Reverb processor and the Chorus processor (which should be thought of as Time Delay effect types). These SYSTEM EFFECTs recreate the room that the musical instrument is being heard. You can make it small and close, or big and wide open. They give a sense of ‘distance’.

This outer or external activity is not technically part of the piano— not like the other source of reverberation within a piano. The Sustain Pedal, lifts the felt dampers of the Keys you strike - you can prevent just the felt dampers of these Keys from deadening their respective strings.... allowing them to ring longer than if you did not engage the pedal. This operation does not change and is totally separate from the rugged walls or the high arching ceiling. This operation does not change in character when you change the room size, it remains constant no matter the external environment that you place the piano in. The Damper Resonance is apart of the piano, it goes wherever the acoustic piano goes. This type of effect processor is called an INSERTION EFFECT, it belongs to the instrument.

The SYSTEM EFFECTs can be thought of as belonging to the band’s mixing console. Everyone can ‘share’.
The INSERTION EFFECTs can be thought of as belonging to the instrument itself or under the direct control of the individual musician playing that instrument. It’s a personal effect processor. Personal in that they are the only one using it.

Examples of Insertion Effects:
Damper Resonance - recreates the complex resonances when the sustain pedal is engaged by the performer
Distortion/Overdrive - recreates the guitar player’s sound output overdriving the pre-amp stage of their personal sound system
Rotary Speaker - recreates the organ player’s Leslie cabinet giving the organ a spinning, all encompassing swirling motion.
Wah-Wah Pedal - a foot controllable pedal that changes Cutoff Frequency of a Filter, attached to a speficic instrument and under control of one person

Examples of System Effects:
Reverbs and Time Delay Effects - that recreate the room the entire band is seated in. All the musicians are in the same room so the settings for Room size and shape are shared, these work on a Send/Return scheme, like found on any mixer with Auxiliary Sends. You can put more reverb on the snare drum to give it the illusion of coming from a different acoustic space than the vocalist or the guitar, or the bass.

Final notes: Effects are never completely right or wrong. You can like whatever you like. If you like a different Reverb Type, use it. That is why they let you select which Reverb, how much reverb, how much Reverberation Time, how much more do high frequencies bounce back versus the lower frequencies, what are the wall surfaces ranging from very dead (like rugs) to very alive (reflective like wood or metal), etc., etc., etc.