Thanks for the question.

When you are using an external controller (no sounds), and a computer based system, you are asking the computer to be your tone generator (synthesizer), your recorder, your effect processing, your EQ; it's every thing but your keyboard (because the one the computer comes with is for the alphabet)! 🙂

...when Steinberg invented VST (Virtual Studio Technology) part of what it introduced was a method to integrate external hardware (both synthesizers and effect processors) into the world of computer based recording. It is merely a matter of signal routing and advanced delay time compensation. When you have all your data generated by the computer it is doing everything and it's CPU is running near capacity. Every band of EQ, every little thing you add uses a bit more CPU muscle.

For some time external devices recorded MIDI data to a computer DAW, like Cubase, and all you could do was play it back to the hardware. You couldn't use any of the effect processing plug-ins on the computer, because MIDI data is not audio, so you cannot process it as you would a soft synth. Soft synths are software programs running on the same computer, that generate audio and return it inside the computer to Cubase. It is called "virtual audio" because although you hear it, it is not actually recorded as a Wave. It is simply 'monitored' through the VST Audio Lane. You can EQ it, process it with plugin effects... It does not get rendered to actual an audio Wave until MIXDOWN. So your recorded data remains in Midi form (where you can edit it, and "change your mind" about your performance).

External VST routing allowed MIDI Tracks to be routed OUT to the external synth, and yet the "returned" audio is returned through the VST Audio Lane, exactly like a soft synth would be. The audio remains "virtual", meaning you can EQ it and process it exactly as you would any soft synth - and your performance remains MIDI data, with the same level of "change your mind" available for your external synth.

So the routing is solved. But the integration goes beyond that. Cubase can "remember" all of your MOXF Voices and Mixing setups, including any custom edits you've done. With the MOXF you can load 384 Normal User Voices and 32 User Drum Kits at a time in the internal MOXF memory. With the integration of Cubase's MediaBay, you can keep every MOXF sound you own just one click away. Since the MOXF is compatible Voice-wise with the Motif XF, I have literally hundreds and hundreds of Voices in my MOXF VST PREST folder. It's huge!!!!

When I'm looking for an electric piano for a MOXF session, I no longer have to hunt through a pile of USB thumb drives looking for different electric piano sounds ... I have about 1100 Electric Piano Voices, ranked and categorized in my Cubase MediaBay Sound Browser. (I can even leave notes to myself about what projects I used a sound on). I simply click on a file name .. It is bulked to the edit buffer of the MOXF... Where I can immediately audition it. I can store it and try it out, in context of the project.

Now mind you, I can have access to *every* Voice I own for my MOXF, even those I have purchased with custom Waveform/Samples on my Flash Board. Once you install data to your Flash Board make a VST Preset of that library, access is one click! You can organize every Voice you encounter for your MOXF and keep it in the Cubase Sound Browser. No waiting for them to load, you simply click and in three seconds you are playing that sound! This may not be a big deal when you first get your MOXF, but over time you wind up with more Voices than be loaded in at one time.

Integration means, your MOXF sound library is in permanent residence on your computer, in your DAW, READY TO GO, and through the magic of bulk dump, you are a click or two away from getting access to any sound. So beyond the Midi and audio routing situation with unlimited UNDO... You have the library integration feature.

Integration means locking in your own templates, and organizing the software and hardware so that you can operate the software without a mouse. Now this is not for everyone but I find it useful. When I'm ready to record on computer I have two "hats". My engineer hat that works with the technology, arms tracks, sets levels, does the utility stuff to setup. And I have my musician hat that means I want to forget about everything and concentrate on playing. The REMOTE CONTROL SURFACE function means I can put down the mouse and completely operate Cubase from the front panel of the MOXF.

What I want to do and when I use it most for is when I'm trying to perform a difficult passage or do serious emulation of some acoustic part. I going to be working, rehearsing rewinding, punching in and out, arming tracks, playing back, soloing, muting, rewinding trying again. I can do these movements without ever touching a mouse. I can operate everything from the front panel of the MOXF. In my studio the computer is not where I can reach it so these front panel controls are a blessing. I don't use it all the time just when I'm working alone and don't want the distraction of having to pick up a mouse. I just want to jump back, punch in and do it again, without spinning my chair around! That's integration of workflow.

Because the MOXF is a midi and audio interface for your computer, you can use it bring in other devices and record them to your computer... Even process them with your on board effects. The hardware effects on the MOXF are world class emulations of classic effects and are trickled down from Yamaha's high end digital mixers, dome are especially developed for synthesizers. The EQs on board are also boutique quality. So having the MOXF as an audio processor not only takes a huge burden off the computer. The MOXF has a three band PART EQ for each and every Part, to open that many bands if EQ on your computer will have your CPU seeing red (literally)...

So your integaration is complete when you realize, that the computer will keep track (pun intended) of every sound you use, every EQ setting you make, every tweak you make, and keep it in one place. When next you open this project, Cubase will tell you what synth you had connected, it will also restore everything back to how it was when you put the project away. Everything comes back total recall!

See this article on VST PRESETS

Thanks for this detailed answer. It will take me a little while to digest all the pieces. But I have a few questions while I digest...

For some time external devices recorded MIDI data to a computer DAW, like Cubase, and all you could do was play it back to the hardware. You couldn't use any of the effect processing plug-ins on the computer, because MIDI data is not audio, so you cannot process it as you would a soft synth. Soft synths are software programs running on the same computer, that generate audio and return it inside the computer to Cubase. It is called "virtual audio" because although you hear it, it is not actually recorded as a Wave. It is simply 'monitored' through the VST Audio Lane. You can EQ it, process it with plugin effects... It does not get rendered to actual an audio Wave until MIXDOWN. So your recorded data remains in Midi form (where you can edit it, and "change your mind" about your performance).

This first part sounds like what my current DAW does; performance is in Midi form, yet I can change instruments, add reverb, etc. The instruments are all virtual right now, since I only have a controller.

External VST routing allowed MIDI Tracks to be routed OUT to the external synth, and yet the "returned" audio is returned through the VST Audio Lane, exactly like a soft synth would be. The audio remains "virtual", meaning you can EQ it and process it exactly as you would any soft synth - and your performance remains MIDI data, with the same level of "change your mind" available for your external synth.

This sounds like a change to my current situation; I understand the MOxf has voices within it, that are particular to the instrument and the tuning/edits of the user. I record something to the DAW as midi, and go to play it back, with changes...When you play back the virtual audio inside of Cubase with the MOxf attached, am I playing back actually from the synth voices on the synth? Or are there representations of those voices installed on the computer? How does the DAW play back the voices from the MOXF? Does it actually route the MIDI back to the MOXF and play it there?

So the routing is solved. But the integration goes beyond that. Cubase can "remember" all of your MOXF Voices and Mixing setups, including any custom edits you've done. With the MOXF you can load 384 Normal User Voices and 32 User Drum Kits at a time in the internal MOXF memory. With the integration of Cubase's MediaBay, you can keep every MOXF sound you own just one click away.

So if I understand, as I edit voices on the MOXF, they are recorded or available within Cubase, and can then be sent back to the MOXF for auditioning...if I find what I want, I can then store it back on the MOXF. This seems to be a major advantage when accumulating a lot of voices over time, but when first starting out, you would only have the voices on the MOXF. So this feature is really for the professional with major investment in libraries, and custom edits of voices. Important to power users, but not immediately useful to the novice user.

Integration means locking in your own templates, and organizing the software and hardware so that you can operate the software without a mouse. Now this is not for everyone but I find it useful. When I'm ready to record on computer I have two "hats". My engineer hat that works with the technology, arms tracks, sets levels, does the utility stuff to setup. And I have my musician hat that means I want to forget about everything and concentrate on playing. The REMOTE CONTROL SURFACE function means I can put down the mouse and completely operate Cubase from the front panel of the MOXF.

I get the concept of this, and I see lots of controllers sold so you can operate the DAW from the controller, and not have to go to the alphabetic keyboard or mouse. The part I don't understand is how any significant MIDI editing is done using the small screen of the MOXF. I can understand operating the DAW, but I am surprised it is convenient to try to punch in or edit music on the synth screen.

See this article on VST PRESETS

I will put the time in to reading this article. For now thought, a question arises. How does one integrate the DAW (Cubase or any other) for other classes of Yamaha keyboard, such as the PSR S970 arranger workstations or the Tyros. It seems to me there is the same basic problem, of how do I take advantage of the voices and edits inside of the S970 and edit them and work on them in the DAW.

Thanks for any help with this. I would like to purchase something intelligently and understand what my workflow is going to be like. I should add that I have many years working on computers, and I am a much stronger computer user than I am a keyboard player. I have worked hard on acoustic piano, but this would be my first synth or arranger.

Thanks for any further help.

Tiger

This sounds like a change to my current situation; I understand the MOxf has voices within it, that are particular to the instrument and the tuning/edits of the user. I record something to the DAW as midi, and go to play it back, with changes...When you play back the virtual audio inside of Cubase with the MOxf attached, am I playing back actually from the synth voices on the synth? Or are there representations of those voices installed on the computer? How does the DAW play back the voices from the MOXF? Does it actually route the MIDI back to the MOXF and play it there

Yes. Of course. The only way a computer could do and sound like a MOXF is if you record its audio. The sound and sound quality of the MOXF is by Yamaha, not Microsoft or Apple 🙂 the MIDI data travels OUT from the Cubase program and triggers the tone engine of the MOXF, which "returns" audio to the program. This to-and-from action takes place through the USB cable.

Also the sound (audio) output will come out of the MOXF. It is your computer's audio interface. If you have speakers connected to your computer, they will NOT be used in this setup! Connect a pair of studio monitors to the main left/right outputs of the MOXF.

I get the concept of this, and I see lots of controllers sold so you can operate the DAW from the controller, and not have to go to the alphabetic keyboard or mouse. The part I don't understand is how any significant MIDI editing is done using the small screen of the MOXF. I can understand operating the DAW, but I am surprised it is convenient to try to punch in or edit music on the synth screen.

Good, you can understand "operating the DAW" because that is what I described. I don't recall saying anything about editing. Editing on the computer is obviously preferred. The computer has a bigger screen and has a graphic interface... Cubase even allows you to edit the data you've recorded via a List view, a Piano roll view or as score notation!

For me personally, Editing is a job for the "engineer hat", while playing/performing is for the "musician hat". I separate the two functions. When I'm editing I'm not touching the keys, I'm engineering! The hat with the propeller on it is the one that edits on the computer screen... Punching in I can, as a musician, execute easily without touching the computer... When I'm in REMOTE mode, the front panel Transport buttons of the MOXF (which look like actual transport buttons: Play, Record, Rewind, Fast Forward, Return to Top, Stop) they are used to control Cubase (not the mouse).

I will put the time in to reading this article. For now thought, a question arises. How does one integrate the DAW (Cubase or any other) for other classes of Yamaha keyboard, such as the PSR S970 arranger workstations or the Tyros. It seems to me there is the same basic problem, of how do I take advantage of the voices and edits inside of the S970 and edit them and work on them in the DAW.

The PSR-S970 and Tyros are built to be self-sufficient when it comes to recording, I don't find any benefit in recording with a DAW using these products. They do not have VST support and are an entirely different class of instrument with more trouble for the user! Especially when trying to re-record its STYLE data to an external DAW. I'm not saying you couldn't, but why on earth would you do that the hard way? With these devices I would opt to use the built-in SONG RECORDER of the instrument... And transfer the data once recorded and saved via a Standard Midi File.

Reasons for recording into the Arranger's own Song Recorder
1) it is designed to easily record/document and edit your complete performance directly on the instrument.
2) since it is designed to output 16 tracks of data and since DAWs, like Cubase, are designed to record one-track-at-a-time, they are immediately at odds with each other (not saying you couldn't work that way, but I'd have to ask why?)
3) so much of what a DAW does is record *you* playing the keys directly, so much of what these Arrangers output is NOT *you* playing directly (it's you triggering interactive musical content that takes what you trigger directly and "magically" turns it into a professional sounding ensemble) Cubase is setup, primarily, to record *your* key presses -which when played back don't sound near as cool as what the Arranger does with that data! And it seems awkward to attempt to transfer the results by bypassing the Arranger's own specially designed recorder... Much easier to use the built-in Song Recorder, save the data to a USB drive, then shuttle it over to the computer and open it there.
4) water naturally runs down hills... So when moving it from here to there -take the easiest route. (now I'm not saying you can't make it run uphill but yikes, why work that hard? Record the Arrangers to their own Song Recorder and then Save a file... Open it in the DAW to edit the results. ITS EASY.

Thanks for all useful information. All of it is much more useful than 100 gee-whiz keyboard demos, which really don't show workflow. Thank you for these helpful and intelligent answers.

Also the sound (audio) output will come out of the MOXF. It is your computer's audio interface. If you have speakers connected to your computer, they will NOT be used in this setup! Connect a pair of studio monitors to the main left/right outputs of the MOXF.

Good, this actually makes sense now. Sound currently is controlled by the Focusite acoustic interface, studio monitors and headphones attached to that. I assume it is an option to either use the Focusrite, or not, and have the MOXF at the center as the acoustic interface.

Good, you can understand "operating the DAW" because that is what I described. I don't recall saying anything about editing. Editing on the computer is obviously preferred. The computer has a bigger screen and has a graphic interface... Cubase even allows you to edit the data you've recorded via a List view, a Piano roll view or as score notation!

Yes, my DAW does that, at least it does piano roll and and score and something called "step editor" that I haven't used...I am not sure what List view is.

The PSR-S970 and Tyros are built to be self-sufficient when it comes to recording, I don't find any benefit in recording with a DAW using these products. They do not have VST support and are an entirely different class of instrument with more trouble for the user! Especially when trying to re-record its STYLE data to an external DAW. I'm not saying you couldn't, but why on earth would you do that the hard way? With these devices I would opt to use the built-in SONG RECORDER of the instrument... And transfer the data once recorded and saved via a Standard Midi File.

I followed your logic here perfectly, right up to the point where you said that you would transfer back to the DAW via MIDI. If I transferred back the MIDI, won't I lose the particular instruments and sounds that are specific to the arranger and not part of general MIDI?

Reasons for recording into the Arranger's own Song Recorder
1) it is designed to easily record/document and edit your complete performance directly on the instrument.
2) since it is designed to output 16 tracks of data and since DAWs, like Cubase, are designed to record one-track-at-a-time, they are immediately at odds with each other (not saying you couldn't work that way, but I'd have to ask why?)
3) so much of what a DAW does is record *you* playing the keys directly, so much of what these Arrangers output is NOT *you* playing directly (it's you triggering interactive musical content that takes what you trigger directly and "magically" turns it into a professional sounding ensemble) Cubase is setup, primarily, to record *your* key presses -which when played back don't sound near as cool as what the Arranger does with that data! And it seems awkward to attempt to transfer the results by bypassing the Arranger's own specially designed recorder... Much easier to use the built-in Song Recorder, save the data to a USB drive, then shuttle it over to the computer and open it there.
4) water naturally runs down hills... So when moving it from here to there -take the easiest route. (now I'm not saying you can't make it run uphill but yikes, why work that hard? Record the Arrangers to their own Song Recorder and then Save a file... Open it in the DAW to edit the results. ITS EASY.

Again, it sounds like the "Save a File" option in your comments above would be to save an audio file, and not the MIDI, since I would lose the voices and such and end up with a general MIDI reinterpretation of the sound. I think moving the MIDI to any DAW would be a mess....am I understanding that correctly?

I get from your comments that for the arrangers especially, I should lose the idea of the DAW at the center of the process, and think of the arranger at the center of the process? But with a single audio file moved to the DAW, I can't do the kind of mixing I think is needed to finish(change the relative volume of instruments, for example, turning up the volume of some instruments at a critical point, or turning just the drums and bass down after recording a vocal in the DAW.) None of that seems possible unless I have each instrument on a separate audio track. I see controls for setting effects on voices in the S970 manual, for example, but it seems unclear to me whether I can do what I described above in this paragraph.

I have spent a lot of time now looking over big portions of the Yamaha line....synths, digital pianos, arrangers and the MX and MM series. I have both educated myself and confused myself greatly!

I am a singer songwriter who wants ways to put together songs. Performance will probably happen, but on a small scale, and not immediately. Mostly I concerned with taking my work and getting it into form so others can hear it.

My acoustic keyboard skills are just passable, as I learned as an adult. I need to keep working on them. So I kept looking at and rejecting keyboard actions that felt weird to me. I have an acoustic piano, and spend a few hours on it every day. I am not sure how it will be going back and forth to a synth type keyboard. I went back to looking at digital pianos, but they are not really songwriting tools. That is how I came back to the MOXF8, because of the action.

Given all this info, where do you see me fitting into the Yamaha line of products. Let's assume that budget is not the issue. (Although I can't say that I planned to spend enough money to buy a Tyros 5!) I would like to tap your experience on finding out where I fit in best in the Yamaha product lines.

Tiger

I followed your logic here perfectly, right up to the point where you said that you would transfer back to the DAW via MIDI. If I transferred back the MIDI, won't I lose the particular instruments and sounds that are specific to the arranger and not part of general MIDI?

No, I think you followed me, perhaps you think I didn't understand your requirement of having the ability to undo and fix your musical performance data. So I am talking about MIDI data here. Attempting to record MIDI data from an Arranger *directly* into a DAW in *real time* is at the deepest end of the pool when it comes to this stuff. What I'm trying to convey, if you want to use the extensive content found in the Arranger's and have it so you can easily edit the notes, then my suggestion is to record your performance, as MIDI data, to the Arranger's own SONG RECORDER. If you want to edit that performance on the bigger screen of your computer (which is very logical), save the Arranger data as a MIDI file, transfer that file to your computer, open it in the DAW. Now you can edit the Midi data.

MIDI data cannot be heard, no one has ever heard MIDI. That MIDI data, now in the DAW, needs to routed OUT via USB-Midi to the Arranger. The Arranger will respond (in a similar fashion to when you originally performed it) the sound comes from the Arranger. Midi data always triggers a synth tone engine. It is the synth tone engine that generates the audio in response to Midi data.

Again, it sounds like the "Save a File" option in your comments above would be to save an audio file, and not the MIDI, since I would lose the voices and such and end up with a general MIDI reinterpretation of the sound. I think moving the MIDI to any DAW would be a mess....am I understanding that correctly?

No, I'm sorry, no. MIDI data only represents what you've played. It is the roll of paper with holes punched in it for a Player Piano. It makes no sound until you send it back to a device that interpret those coded messages and turn it back into music (audio). I suggested storing your Arranger performance in a MIDI file, loading that file in the DAW so you could edit it. Isn't that why you have a computer in this in the first place, to EDIT your playing... Or am I misunderstanding your goal?

I am a singer songwriter who wants ways to put together songs. Performance will probably happen, but on a small scale, and not immediately. Mostly I concerned with taking my work and getting it into form so others can hear it.

Both Yamaha Music Production synthesizers, and Yamaha Arranger keyboards can be (and are) used by singer songwriters around the world. They both have tons of professionally performed content on board. In the Music Production synthesizers, this content is in the form of thousands of individual Arpeggio phrases (drum, guitar, bass, etc.) These phrases can be assembled by individually selecting them and using them wherever you need them. The Arranger keyboards, by way of contrast, presents the content in genre based grouping called "Styles" (as in styles of music) if you wanted to write a pop song in the style of "college rock", for example, there is probably a complete 'style' that would allow you conjour up your best REM or Hootie and the Blowfish type song. Or if you wished to do something that sounded like authentic "60's Motown", or "British Invasion" era rock, you could dial up a backing band to quickly pull that off. An Arranger is like hiring an 8-piece band that knows every style of music, you hand them a 'chord chart' and they will generate authentic sounding musical tracks.

The Music Production synth is for the person interested in "doing it themselves"... Or ding it mostly on their own. Using the technology for the occasional assist. Say you have a composition you are working on and simply want to add an authentic sounding finger picking guitar part, you can search through the 1200+ guitar arpeggio phrases and find that perfect phrase.. Or one that is close, then you can adjust the timing and feel of the arp as you feed it the chords of your composition.

The products overlap, and can each do most of what the other can... It is a matter of the FOCUS of the product. It is easier to work one track at a time with Music Production synthesizers, they have a Sequencer. The word sequence hints heavily at one after the other... And that is how mainly you record your data. The Arranger Workstation keyboards have a Song Recorder because their focus is on recording all 16 Tracks at once. It documents you playing the song.

These are generalizations about the FOCUS of the product. Could you record one track at a time on the Arranger, well yes. Could you record multiple parts simultaneously on the Music Production synth, well yes you can... But just know you are swimming against the designed focus.

You mentioned weighted keys, there are weighted action Arranger keyboards built into elaborate furniture pieces... The CVP709 is like a Tyros 5 with weighted piano action, just FYI.

I hope that this is helpful. The two product categories exist because there is a major difference in the focus. And the devil is always in these details. Doing research, as you are, is to be commended, and is the smart thing to do. If you have an authorized Yamaha dealer in your area, go and spend some time interacting with the instruments. It's time well spent! If you have other questions please, don't hesitate, ask away!

my suggestion is to record your performance, as MIDI data, to the Arranger's own SONG RECORDER. If you want to edit that performance on the bigger screen of your computer (which is very logical), save the Arranger data as a MIDI file, transfer that file to your computer, open it in the DAW. Now you can edit the Midi data.

MIDI data cannot be heard, no one has ever heard MIDI. That MIDI data, now in the DAW, needs to routed OUT via USB-Midi to the Arranger. The Arranger will respond (in a similar fashion to when you originally performed it) the sound comes from the Arranger. Midi data always triggers a synth tone engine. It is the synth tone engine that generates the audio in response to Midi data.

I am hoping to straighten out my "arranger MIDI confusion". I understand what MIDI data is. And I understand that in general, you can take MIDI data into the DAW and edit it.

But you are suggesting taking the MIDI data from Arranger keyboards (S970 in particular) into the DAW to edit it? For the MOXF8, Cubase had the ability to play that edited MIDI data back to the MOXF. That is part of the integration.

But my impression is that no such integration exists for the S970. I have this impression from people at a S970 forum. Thus the MIDI from the sequencer was transferred it would be assigned to whatever instruments the DAW chose to assign them to. You could change that, of course, but if there was no integration, the DAW would not be able to play MIDI correctly, since it didn't have access to the instruments of the S970.

Let me know if this is simply muddled up; perhaps Cubase will handle this, and maybe some other DAWs don't know how to play back to the arrangers and S970 particularly.

You mentioned weighted keys, there are weighted action Arranger keyboards built into elaborate furniture pieces... The CVP709 is like a Tyros 5 with weighted piano action, just FYI.

That price point really made me flinch! Nice combination of features, though.

I think I am more of an arranger person, so any help clarifying how to will edit the arranger data and not lose the arranger instruments will be helpful. I can certainly switch to Cubase if that will do the job.

As for dealers, I will check again, but I don't believe they had either the Tyros or the S970 in stock. So it wasn't possible to play with them.

Tiger

This is a site for Yamaha Synthesizers, not the Arranger Workstations, so we can only offer you answers on some of the workings. But MIDI data is MIDI data, and the DAW, be it Cubase or any other, will simply playback the MIDI data. DAW make no selections on there own, YOU make the selections. When you export the data it can include the Bank and Program Change info so that the Voice you select has no choice but to playback. I don't consider playing back the MIDI data to any keyboard "integration", what I consider integration is advanced MIDI/Audio routing (VST), Voice and multi-timbral setup librarian function, and like that.

For more in depth discussion of what is possible with a PSR-S970 I highly recommend you contact an Application Specialist via Yamaha Customer Support... They will be able to address your concerns about integrating an Arranger with a computer. Are you in the USA?

Let us know.

Yes, thanks very much for all the help. I know we strayed out of synthesizers, and I appreciate you educating me on how the MOXF integrates with Cubase. I am in the USA and would be happy to contact someone at Yamaha. Let me know any actions to take.

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