Why can’t I fully pan a Stereo Waveform

The answer is because it is “stereo”.

A Stereo Waveform — Stereo is the reproduction of sound using a minimum of two independent audio channels in a way that creates the impression (illusion) of sound heard from various directions, as in natural hearing. As humans we determine where a sound is coming from using our two ears… sound arrives at one ear before the other, this gives us the ability to pinpoint its location. Stereo signals have signal in both channels and because the signals are not identical we get an illusion of the space between the speakers…

A Mono Waveform can be moved and located anywhere in the stereo field during playback. Mono waveforms the same signal is sent to both channels… and are identical. In a Stereo Waveform the data in each channel is different — it is recorded using a stereo microphone (two separate mic capsules) that is aimed in such a way as they pick up different information, or better stated different phase relationship of the targeted sound are represented. X-Y is the most commonly used stereo miking technique as the results can be played in mono if necessary.

When you take a Stereo Waveform and Pan it to any location other than Center (C) you change this relationship.
If you attempt to Pan a stereo signal hard Left, the data that was hard Right will sound from the center of the panoramic field.
If you Pan a stereo waveform hard right, the data that was hard Left will sound from the center… resulting in a narrower panorama.
You can narrow the stereo field of the Waveform by not panning each to the extreme.

A great article on the subject (by a former co-worker, long time friend, Joe Albano) link: Point #3 “Don’t Confuse Stereo Panning and Balancing”
5 Mixing Mistakes to Avoid using panning imaging tools

Thank you Bad Mister,

your responses are always very helpful! I have a much better understanding of Stereo Waveforms now.
I guess I got confused because the manual of the MOXF8 is clearly saying, that the pan function works like a stereo balance. Therefore I expected the level of the right/left speaker to just go down, as soon as I start "panning", no matter if it's a stereo or mono waveform.

It seems like the "pan" of the MOXF is NOT a stereo balance in the case of stereo waveforms, even though the manual is saying so. The way you explain it to me indicates that the pan of stereo waveforms in the MOXF s actually a true panning. Just a very impractical one, because it is only ONE control for TWO independent channels.

Would you say I have explained it correctly?

Best regards,
Sven

PAN in a VOICE
On the MOXF (and Motif-series) audio samples are mapped to a KeyBank. The KeyBank is a Waveform parameter, it defines things like the Note range and the Velocity range for each audio sample. Each KeyBank can support a maximum of two samples — this is to accommodate stereo.

A Waveform is a set of parameters that *collects* (organizes) the individual audio samples into a playable entity.

_ A stereo Waveform is one made from two related mono audio clips, one panned hard left, the other panned hard right. When an instrument is created using stereo samples, in the MOXF/Motif-series, the stereo audio wave is divided so that information from the mic aimed left is housed in the hard left panned sample, and information from the mic aimed right is housed in the hard right panned sample. These two samples are paired — they share the same KeyBank.
(Please note: you could place two non-related samples in the same KeyBank, the result would be they will not create the stereo illusion of *panorama* when you set them hard left and hard right. Instead they just simply sound like two mono waves, one panned left the other panned right).

But because in a factory Stereo Waveform - the two mono waves are related - just panned/stored separately - you get the feeling you are listening to the full panorama..

When you recall a Voice that is made from “St” (Stereo) Waveforms, each note you play uses 2 notes of polyphony, as Stereo here is two mono waves set as a left/right pairing within the KeyBank.
The more recent MODX and MONTAGE handle Stereo quite differently - as it is no longer necessary to work the KeyBank pairing to hold stereo samples - they are 128 notes of stereo polyphony.

This does impact how the MOXF and Motif XS/XF are able to Pan…

PANNING a Voice when it is in a Part of a Performance or Mix
When a Voice is placed in a Performance Part or a Song/Pattern MIXING Part, the ability to set a position in the ensemble will depend on the setting of the “Voice Element Pan” parameter.

VoiceELPan (Voice Element Pan)
Determines whether the individual pan settings for each Voice (made in Voice Mode) are applied or not. When this is set to “off,” the pan position for the each Element is set to center in the Part.
Settings: off, on

If you wish to move a St (Stereo Waveform) you should make sure the “VoiceELPan” = On.
From the Performance or Song/Pattern Mixing:
Press [EDIT]
Press a Track button, 1-4 or 1-16, to select Editing Part parameters.
Press [F2] OUTPUT
Press [SF1] VOICE EL PAN

Here you will find the “Voice Element Pan” On/Off
If you wish to override the stereo image and wish to place the individual sound elsewhere, you must turn the “Voice Element Pan” = On

This does impact how the MOXF and Motif XS/XF are able to Pan…

Do I understand correctly that, while the Montage/MODX benefit from stereo sounds no longer using up twice the polyphony, this new approach also means thet stereo sounds cannot be panned completely to one side, whereas on the MOXF and Motif XS/XF, those sounds were able be entirely panned to one side (obviously at the expense of no longer having any stereo-ness)?

@AnotherScott - No. But let’s not confuse the MOXF folks… please see the following for MONTAGE/MODX:

https://yamahasynth.com/ask-a-question/drum-waveform-builtin-pan#reply-109394

If you wish to override the stereo image and wish to place the individual sound elsewhere, you must turn the “Voice Element Pan” = On

I am not sure if I understood you correctly. Do you mean "Off"? Because If I wanted to place a stereo sound somewhere else, I would first make sure that the sound is initially centered before moving it.

Anyway, the rest of your answer makes perfect sense. It didn't directly answer my question but I found out by myself:

I guess I got confused because the manual of the MOXF8 is clearly saying, that the pan function works like a stereo balance.

I looked up the section in the reference manual and I found I had made a mistake, since it is NOT saying, that the pan function works like a stereo balance, at least not the one in the Normal Voice Element Edit Mode. However it does say in the Drum Voice Key Edit Mode:

Stellt für jede Wave die Pan-Position (Stereobalance) ein. Diese wird auch als die Basis-Pan-Position für die Parameter Alternate und Random verwendet.

(Seite 50 Referenzhandbuch)

I am quoting the German manual because that was the one I was reading. When comparing it to the English manual, the confusion gets even bigger:

Sets the pan position (stereo position) of each wave. This will also be used as the basic Pan position for the Alternate
and Random settings.

(page 50 reference manual)

As in your first answer it became clear that Stereo Balance and Stereo Position are two different things. Therefore the English manual seems to be more logical. It just shows how important the right choice of words is and to double check what I am actually looking at.

Anyway, things have been much clearer now. To conclude: When panning individual Elements it is IMPOSSIBLE to fully pan the Element as long as it is using a Stereo (St) Waveform due to the nature of the Waveform file. Therefore I always have to change it to a Mono (Mn) Waveform OR I use the Voice in a Song Mixing / Performance Mode with "Voice Element Pan" Off (?) and using the Stereo Balance function in those modes. Am I correct?

@AnotherScott - No. But let’s not confuse the MOXF folks… please see the following for MONTAGE/MODX:

https://yamahasynth.com/ask-a-question/drum-waveform-builtin-pan#reply-109394

Thanks... I got confused in a quick scan, thinking this question was about the Montage/MODX rather than the MOXF! My link to this site takes me right to the "Recent" page, where questions from all the different categories get lumped together, and sometimes I forget to check to see what model someone is talking about, and then if I don't pay enough attention... 😉