Synth Forum

Notifications
Clear all

cannot change scene with a pedal multi switch board using midi cc

6 Posts
3 Users
0 Reactions
1,967 Views
Daniel
Posts: 450
Honorable Member
Topic starter
 

i was happy to get the Icon G-board multi pedal switch for remotely changing the scene button but it appears that you cannot unless you can program an amplitude value for each sending switch. that is not suitable for mainly devices foot controller, that is not smart at all, very desapointed, yamaha makes thing complicated and exotics, sad it is. i will not use the montage on live performance, switching scene on a live play by hand is just not smart at all, not beautiful too.. am i wrong?

,

Montage 7 classic

 
Posted : 05/07/2020 9:08 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12303
 

Yes, you are wrong... (my opinion) here’s why: Thanks for the topic... I think it’s very important!! I want to encourage you to try to change...

You purchased a synthesizer, not a baritone saxophone... I can understand someone wanting to keep both hands on a baritone saxophone (to keep from dropping it on their foot) but you’re playing a keyboard synthesizer... an important part of the trip is the front panel... 8 Rotary Encoders representing 136 front panel knobs per Performance, 8 Sliders representing 16 Part Volumes and/or 64 Oscillator Output Levels, 8 Scene buttons to instantly automate sound switching and mix changes, for both internal and external devices... trigger Motion Sequences or Stop Motion Sequences. Programmable switches to bring in different Articulations...be it a brass fall off, a guitar harmonic, or a dramatic change in Effect processing.

Seems almost criminal to play a synth, (particularly this synth) without an intimate real-time relationship with the front panel!

HISTORY
The history of keyboards begins with the pipe organ, which had many more knobs and switches than any modern synthesizer. Imagine a organist whimpering over not wanting to reach up and adjust the stops. Or even a modern day B3 player saying, “I need to move the drawbars with my feet because I’m too busy keeping both hands on the keyboard.” Absurd. The panel is an important part of performing on the instrument.

Synthesizers began without keyboards at all, they were all front panel knobs, switches and patch cables... keys were an addition to create a convenient set of Gates (on/off switches) synth creation was mostly hands-on the front panel. Velocity didn’t exist for a full couple of decades of synthesizers! The MiniMoog started a revolution — the live performance synthesizer... mainly a one hand affair on the keys, the other hand constantly on the front panel, MW, PB, Filter Cutoff, etc., etc.

Piano Spoils You
If you’re a piano player (make that) if you’re a spoiled piano player, you might be one of those who brings a page turner to the gig, but for centuries even piano players (the laziest of all keyboardist) learn to reach up, and make some adjustments. Piano playing spoils you into thinking you actually need to keep both hands on the keys... and you can make the argument for this, true, but only if you’re playing a piano sound on your MONTAGE, (but then what are you doing with the scene buttons? They can be automated!

Today’s Arranger and Digital Workstation keyboards, like the Yamaha PSR-SX Series, and/or the GENOS, are designed around manual selection of the front panel buttons to program filli-Ins, breaks, section changes, registration recalls, Super Articulations, etc., etc.. It takes practice and coordination. Naturally. Most keyboards on the planet (except piano) have some kind of intimate relationship with the front panel. You should lose that piano-player mentality and adopt the role of a more universal Keyboardists... learn to reach up and touch the front panel buttons. It takes practice, like any skill worth mastering!

“What’s with That Flashing Knob?”
Keyboardist (like you) are the reason the Super Knob flashes... we wanted the traditional ‘I-must-keep-both-hands-on-the- keys’ piano player to ask “what’s with the flashing knob?”... playing some MONTAGE sounds without moving the Super Knob will cause you to miss more than half the story. You could play “CFX + FM EP“ without ever finding the FM EP... you could play “Seattle Sections“ without ever discovering the Solo violin-viola-cello sounds at the other end of the flashing rainbow that is the Super Knob... You are also the reason the FC2 jacks to an FC7 Pedal moving the Super Knob. You might play ”Turn it On“ without ever hearing the multiple parameter morph that is so very dramatic...

Look we understand, on a piano it is all about the keys and the pedals, but the MONTAGE is a synth.
We’ll give you a pass if all you do with your synth is play the piano. Funny, (and you’ll see it here on the site all the time)... somebody comparing a Yamaha Digital Piano with a MONTAGE or MODX, as if... They don’t even see the Digital piano has no Mod Wheel, no Pitch Bend Wheel, none of the traditional ways to alter the sound as the synth does with front panel operation. (Any of that kind of stuff is done on a Digital piano by retasking the foot pedals). I see them, doesn’t make it right. I see those kind of ‘piano players‘ as drummers... we are all percussionists because piano is a percussion instrument, but a ‘drummer‘ traditionally, hits a note and their job is done (they don’t add vibrato, they don’t sweep the filter, they don’t apply Aftertouch to animate the sound). A whole note to them means “stay quiet for 4 beats, don’t hit anything”— don’t play your synth like a drummer! Do add vibrato, do sweep the filter, do add Aftertouch to modify the sound!!!

MIDI Foot Controller
Yamaha makes a foot pedal with 10 switches... a sweep pedal, jacks for four more Foot switches and/or Foot Controllers; each switch can be set to send a CC with an appropriate value to change Scenes. You can easily setup eight foot switches to switch Scenes.

Yamaha MIDI Foot Controller MFC10

Scene CC Numbers
If you wish to use a Foot Switch to change the Scene buttons you must select a CC (Control Change) Number - default is cc92.
Different values for cc92 will select a Scene.
Scene 1 any value 0-15
Scene 2 any value 16-31
Scene 3 any value 32-47
Scene 4 any value 48-63
Scene 5 any value 64-79
Scene 6 any value 80-95
Scene 7 any value 96-111
Scene 8 any value 112-127

This is pretty standard for multiple options being selected by CC messages, any value within the range will make the setting... there are 8 selections... divide 128 (0-127) into 8 equal ranges... any value in that range makes the Scene change.

Obviously a single Foot Switch cannot make 8 different selections. And advancing to the *next* Scene is not really useful, because music doesn’t necessarily always move in that one direction (you want to be able to freely move from Section to Section... even if it means moving out of order).

There are two “HELPERS” built-in
Arp Sync Quantize Value which allows you to trigger a change in Arps — this sets a distance before it takes affect. Set to 240 clock ticks (a musical eighth note) means you can play the controlling Keys on the Keyboard within an eighth note of when you want it to change. Set it to 120 clock ticks (a musical sixteenth note) and when you play a controlling chord within a 16th of the beat you want the chord quality of the Arp phrase to change. This slight anticipation allows the Arp phrase to play the correct notes according to your control input.

Timing Change: Next Measure means Scenes/Arp Phrases will always complete the measure they are playing and change precisely at the top of the next measure.

If you give a command in measure 7 to change Scenes, the Scene controlling an Arp will actually change at the top of the ‘Next’ measure. Giving you time to reach up and tap the button.

Let it breathe
When learning music... as a keyboard player in a band, we are often tasked with chordal harmony... we are playing (holding) whole note and tied whole note chords, constructing the harmonic underpinnings of the musical composition. When Sequencing came into vogue, you found keyboard players step entering chords into Sequencers... if you are told to create a whole note chord... if you set the chord to hold for al 1,920 clock ticks in the measure (480 clocks per quarter note, 4/4 time) 1,920 clock = 1 measure.

If you do that - on paper it seems like the right thing to do. But if you are listening — it starts to get on your nerves. Do you know why?
There is no breath. It is totally unnatural for one chord to transition to another within a single clock tick. It *feels* better when you release the chord, just before you trigger the next whole note chord. The breath. Not noticed UNTIL IT’S NOT THERE.

Ever listen to a recording of someone speaking, where they edited out all of the speaker’s breath intakes. Trust me you can’t listen for long or it become silly to listen to... you wind up getting out of breath, before you realize why you’re uncomfortable.

There is a natural-ness to the release and-retrigger that gives us the result we want and a bit of air in between, to breathe.
That breath is where you can make changes. You would be amazed how many clock tick you can actual leave in between a Release and Triggering the next whole note chord and still get that continuous effect.

I mention that to introduce you to the concept (most other musicians know about) breathing, phrasing, the pause that allows you to interact. Wind players are well aware of breathing as it definitely impacts their ability to create notes. When engineering, if you needed to punch in during an overdub session, the engineer is watching the musicians “breathing“ — you can punch in during their intake of air. Be that an actual intake of air, or breathing in the sense of natural musical performance.

You cannot move from one whole note chord to the next with no space (it is not natural) if playing you release one chord a breath before triggering the next. During the breaths you can initiate a button push, like a Scene change.

Hope that helps... it’s a synth, practice using the front panel... it’s a very important part of the trip.
If you cannot reach up and press a Scene button, Append your Scenes so that it can happen at a time more convenient for you. But you must learn to use the front panel, it simply makes sense.

 
Posted : 05/07/2020 11:12 am
Daniel
Posts: 450
Honorable Member
Topic starter
 

thank you mister bad for answer. about breathing sure, you are right. it is just that i dont like to switch with hand, when i use a vst orchestra or choir with numerous keys witching, i use midi learn for use foot switch, not the key switch on the keyboard, like to forget the switching process. Unfortunately the mfc10 is not available in European store at least, some second hand maybe.:) thanks again, i am searching some vst tools midi processing for add value to midi cc coming from the pedalboard. maybe cubase have such midi tools too. thanks again mister Bad, have a nice day.

Montage 7 classic

 
Posted : 05/07/2020 4:02 pm
Jason
Posts: 8259
Illustrious Member
 

I think you have the wrong pedal, not the wrong keyboard. There are more choices than the G-board (or Yamaha's pedal board) to accomplish the task. I think it's better that scenes are CC values rather than using many CCs.

You could probably keep using the G-board if you have a device between. Like an iPad, laptop, or hybrid (like Microsoft Surface). Then software can translate what the G-board sends into the appropriate CC values for scene switching.

A user explains how to setup a Behringer FCB1010 here:

https://yamahasynth.com/ask-a-question/change-scenes-with-foot-controller#reply-17825

If you keep digging, I'm sure there's other options. For example, Keith McMillen has a pedal - I haven't run through the traps if what's supported.

You may also be able to glue something to the G-board other than a computer/tablet to translate what G-Board does into something compatible. Something like Midi Solution's event processor (I'd probably go for the "plus" version). I haven't run through the traps on this yet - so read the docs. Notice this is to clean up use of the wrong (incompatible) pedal.

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 05/07/2020 10:32 pm
Daniel
Posts: 450
Honorable Member
Topic starter
 

difficult to find a software that translate 8 midi cc value in same time. for the hardware footswitch, the fc Behringer is too big and crap for programming, yes if you buy a footswitch the price of a synth, then may be you will get the right staff.

I think it's better that scenes are CC values rather than using many CCs.

why? (surely not for customer budget anyway)
i just give up for midi control montage scene. i use this g-board with kontakt, work perfectly.

Montage 7 classic

 
Posted : 10/07/2020 2:07 pm
Jason
Posts: 8259
Illustrious Member
 

why? (surely not for customer budget anyway)

Because there are 8 scene buttons and 128 possible values in a single CC. So the mapping preserves resources using a single CC.

Others seem to have had success with the FCB1010 - but how you solve this is up to you.

On the PC something like Ctrlr can map the CCs. I'm not sure if there is something as powerful (and free) on Mac.

Bome can probably do it, at cost.

I've also done CC translation using free piz plugins on the PC under a DAW (also no cost - bundled Cubase AI with Montage).

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 14/07/2020 6:05 pm
Share:

© 2024 Yamaha Corporation of America and Yamaha Corporation. All rights reserved.    Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us