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Editing a preset drum ARP - possible?

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Colin
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I've always 'presumed' that full editing of a 'preset' ARP (i.e. removing individual drum parts that u don't need/want) was perfectly possible via EDIT Part - Common and then selecting one of the blue drum parts at the bottom of the screen ... but it now seems you can only do minor tweaks like osc/tune /filter / level/Pan/ or Element EQ ... is that right ?

Even then u don't seem to be able to sound out parts by taking the levels down to zero?

Am I wrong?

 
Posted : 25/01/2022 5:23 pm
Bad Mister
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I've always 'presumed' that full editing of a 'preset' ARP (i.e. removing individual drum parts that u don't need/want) was perfectly possible via EDIT Part - Common and then selecting one of the blue drum parts at the bottom of the screen ... but it now seems you can only do minor tweaks like osc/tune /filter / level/Pan/ or Element EQ ... is that right ?

Editing an ARP is a completely different thing that editing a synthesizer sound (even if it is a Drum Kit). An ARP is not a part of the Drum Kit. It is a completely separate set of data - made up of MIDI Note-on events (and sometimes CC or Pitch Bend messages). Arp Phrases can be temporarily associated with a MONTAGE Part - but the ARP is completely separate - so editing it will be separate.

If you wish to Edit a Preset Arpeggio you have several other options:
__ If you want to change MIDI events that are stored in the ARP Phrase itself - you can. This involves transferring the ARP Phrase to the Pattern Sequencer and rewriting the data. Once you have edited the ARP Phrase to your liking, you can create a new User Arp. As many as 256 User Arps can be stored in a User Bank. To transfer an ARP Phrase to the Pattern Sequencer you simply have to assign the Arp Phrase to a Drum Kit. Using "Key On Start" and "Loop" = Off, you can transfer the Arp data to MIDI event data. While in the Pattern Sequencer, you can erase individual Drums that you do not want; you can add hits that you do want - you are basically creating a NEW ARP based on the Preset Arp.

__ ARP PLAY FX allow you to change the Velocity, Gate Time, Swing Quantize, Unit Multiply, etc These are edits to the way the Arp Phrase 'feels" against the tempo.

__ If you want to change what MIDI events are sounding from a particular Drum Arp Phrase you can change the Part Note Limits so as to exclude the Drums you don't want to use. This is not really editing the Arp - it is editing what sounds from the Drum Kit

You mention turning the level of the drums to zero - that will work, provided you select the correct DRUM KEY, but this is not editing the ARP - this is editing the Drum Kit... It might be better just to turn the Element Switch OFF for the assigned for this DRUM KEY. Setting the Volume to 0 will accomplish the goal...but turning the Drum Key's Element assignment to OFF will save polyphony.

 
Posted : 25/01/2022 6:48 pm
Colin
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turning the Drum Key's Element assignment to OFF will save polyphony

where do I go to to achieve this please (what are the required steps) ?

 
Posted : 25/01/2022 6:58 pm
Darryl
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Trusted Member
 

1. Select the Drum PART in the Performance > Edit
2. Under Osc / Tune, press Drum Key on the bottom right, then select Keyboard Select above it
3. Press the key with a drum sound that you want to turn Off, then at the Top Left, press the green-lit ON button to turn it OFF

Repeat step 3 for all keys with drum sounds you want to turn Off

 
Posted : 25/01/2022 7:32 pm
Jason
Posts: 7889
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I've always 'presumed' that full editing of a 'preset' ARP

What follows this statement seems like changing the Performance - not the ARP. Just so you understand - the Performance are all of the settings that dictate which sound (waveform) is triggered by which piano key (called a "drum key" in a Drum-type Performance), the EQ, the effects, arpeggio settings, etc. Really I'm describing "Part" settings - which is a portion of the entire Performance.

"Editing an ARP" is a very specific thing. The "ARP" or arpeggio is basically a MIDI sequence that feeds into the arpeggiator in order to automate triggering notes or control changes (like turning knobs and pressing buttons). For drum Parts ARPs (typically "fixed" type) dictate which "keys" are pressed automatically - but you do not have to have any sound attached to a given key and this is more what you are talking about - making changes at the Part level not ARP level.

Even though it seems like a typo - if you DID want to actually edit an ARP - this cannot be done directly. You cannot directly load a preset arpeggio into an editor that allows you to modify the preset arpeggio. You can, however, do this indirectly by having the arpeggio "play" and record the outcome - then translate THIS into your own arpeggio after editing to modify this say within a DAW. Still -- I don't think this is necessary for what you're after.

EDIT Part - Common and then selecting one of the blue drum parts at the bottom of the screen ... but it now seems you can only do minor tweaks like osc/tune /filter / level/Pan/ or Element EQ ... is that right ?

You have more that you can do than what you listed. Getting more to the practical for what you're trying to do - if you press on a drum key - look in the upper left where it will say "ON" with a bright box. Press that to turn it OFF instead of adjusting the levels. That will remove the particular drum key altogether.

You also have some options for some standard drum pieces to shift around which samples are played. I think lets just start with disabling the drum keys you want OFF first.

EDIT: oops - was late to the game in this response. Had it sitting before "sending" it and there had already been a discussion in the hours I left this. Hope the info helps.

 
Posted : 25/01/2022 9:53 pm
Colin
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Topic starter
 

Hi Jason,

I've now successfully 'turned OFF' certain drum ARP parts that were superfluous to my required drum ARP..thanks

Now however, I can't work out exactly how to increase/decrease the volume/level of certain drum ARP parts.

I thought this would just be a case of amending the Pitch/Vel of that drum key but it doesn't seem to respond to that?

 
Posted : 18/01/2023 1:36 pm
Posts: 753
Prominent Member
 

I've now successfully 'turned OFF' certain drum ARP parts that were superfluous to my required drum ARP..thanks

Please share the details of how you did this.

It isn't clear what you mean by "'turned OFF' certain drum ARP parts'. Did you remove the drum part? Did you turn OFF specific drum keys that were triggering arps you didn't want.

 
Posted : 18/01/2023 5:25 pm
Colin
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Topic starter
 

The latter...I turned OFF specific drum keys that were triggering arps I didn't want.

 
Posted : 18/01/2023 6:33 pm
Colin
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Topic starter
 

So I am now looking to amend the volume levels of a couple of the remaning drum keys.

I would also like (if at all possible) to 'insert' a drum hit (such as a single snare hit) into the existing Arp but I've really no idea at all if that's possible or how to do it!

 
Posted : 18/01/2023 6:37 pm
Posts: 753
Prominent Member
 

So I am now looking to amend the volume levels of a couple of the remaning drum keys.

By editing the key and going to the Level / Pan tab you can change the level of individual drum keys.

But this new level will apply whenver that key is played.

To only affect the level when an arp plays a note you will need to add the level change to the arp MIDI data.

I would also like (if at all possible) to 'insert' a drum hit (such as a single snare hit) into the existing Arp but I've really no idea at all if that's possible or how to do it!

Yes - you need to follow the advice Bad Mister gave you in his first reply and basically transfer the arp to the pattern recorder, edit/remove/add what you want there and then create a new arp to use.

But on the Montage/Modx itself you won't have any visibility into the actual list of events in the arp/midi phrase. You might want to record the midi to a daw that actually supports more complex event edits.

 
Posted : 18/01/2023 7:17 pm
Jason
Posts: 7889
Illustrious Member
 

Pitch/Vel is the wrong parameter. This will scale pitch to the incoming velocity. +63 will make high velocities add a great pitch shift and +0 will apply no pitch shift no matter how hard you hit the key. Negative values are inverse pitch. And, pitch is affects the frequency of the drum (tuning) -- not how loud the drum is. Loudness is also documented as level and also as amplitude.

If you want to set the level of each drum key differently, then navigate to the "Level/Pan" menu and edit the "Level" parameter.

You have individual control over the nominal level of each drum kit piece.

Also here you can change "Level/Vel" if you want the drum key to have a different response to velocity changes. This is another way to offset the velocity but would also depend on the supplied (by the ARP) velocities of each note.

 
Posted : 18/01/2023 8:34 pm
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Member Admin
 

This way lays madness:

Record the whole arp sequence to a Pattern in the Pattern Sequencer.

To do this, you have to first figure out how long the Arp is, and set the Pattern Sequencer to record exactly that length, and not to loop, and Key On Start. Now you can start the drum arp with a tap of the right keyboard key and it'll do the recording perfect, without intervention.

Then stop the arpeggio, and turn off Arps.

Now set loop back on for the Pattern Sequencer.

And change the record mode to Overdub.

Hit record, and add whatever drum notes you want and become intimately familiar with the UNDO's arbitrarily convoluted operation. You'll get the muscle memory soonish.

Once you've got the new hits where you want, forget about reporting this back to an arp. Instead, learn to use the Pattern Sequencer as your backing drummer. This opens up much more options for more complex drum pattern sequencing, as you can now use multiple different arpeggios in a single Scene, by recording them sequentially into single Pattern Sequences (Scenes).

By way of benefit example: You can have a fill for a couple of bars, then a straight beat for 8 bars, then a finale of some sort, and another fill, and then some silence from the drums for a couple of bars, all recored into a single Scene's Pattern Sequence, which is then able to be used in part or whole in the Pattern Sequencer. And you've still got 7 Scenes and 7 Sequences to do with as you please in terms of drum patterns and sequences and arpeggios.

No... I don't know why Yamaha doesn't go to enormous trouble to explain this somewhat hidden superpower of the drum arps and the Pattern Sequencer.

 
Posted : 19/01/2023 3:50 am
Colin
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Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

How do you actually tell which drum keys are being utilized in any particular ARP...nearly all of the keys seem to say 'ON' but only about three are being utilized in the preset ARP.....is it pure 'trial & error' by pressing every key on the keyboard?

I ask because the I'm struggling to find the right key to amend the level/Vel

 
Posted : 19/01/2023 1:23 pm
Posts: 0
Member Admin
 

Yes, it really is that shit.

Or you can "render" the MIDI out to a DAW and examine the notes being spat out to find what's being played by the ARP.

The good news, having done that and found the notes you don't want, if you record the Arp to the Pattern Sequencer, you can hold down the Erase key whilst holding down the offending notes whilst overdubbing as the Pattern loops in record mode, to delete those notes from the recorded Pattern Sequence.

The first few times, that's as weird as it sounds... invisible delete...

Everything about the Pattern Sequencer is kind of this half arsed, or worse.

 
Posted : 19/01/2023 1:47 pm
Jason
Posts: 7889
Illustrious Member
 

How do you actually tell which drum keys are being utilized in any particular ARP

Not without some effort. Here are some options:

1) Set quick template on MODX to "Arp Rec on DAW" or navigate to [UTILITY] "Settings" -> "MIDI I/O" and make sure "Arp MIDI Out" is turned on. You need to be in Multi-Channel MIDI mode for this to work. Then play the arpeggio and record the MIDI data on a DAW (USB connected computer). Then use the facility in the DAW to visualize what MIDI notes are in use. A piano roll display of the notes is probably easiest.

OR

2) Set tempo to 300 (maximum) only so the arpeggio loops the fastest. Turn ARP Hold ON for the Drum Part (and Arp Master/Part to ON too) then strike a key to start the drum kit arpeggio playing. Modify the note range for the Drum Part (from the [PERFORMANCE] (HOME) screen). Set the minimum and maximum to C0. If you don't hear anything, select the maximum note (C0 at first) and increase it to C#0. The DATA DIAL can be used to do this. Wait enough time for the arp to cycle (probably now the arp will be silent - so use your judgement. At bpm=300 it should go fast). Then turn the DATA DIAL another click adding one drum key per turn. If you hear a new drum sound then you know the maximum note range value is used. You can walk up the minimum note range to be identical to maximum so only one key is being tested. This may be necessary along the way to make it easier to hear new keys.

OR (a bit crazy-town, but an option -- a bad one) ...

2) Make a custom drum kit where you import 73 samples of a voice saying "one" through "seventy-three". Then create a custom drumkit where sample "one" is at drumkey location C0 and "73" is at location C6 -- and all others between. Then slow down the tempo enough so consecutive notes don't run over each other. There are still situations where multiple drums will trigger at the same time so some amount of overlap is unavoidable. Remember, this is crazy-town so not a preferred way by any means. If you're lucky the drum keys will play alone enough where you can hear the keyboard rattling off the drum key by number starting at 1 (for C0). You can edit the arp properties to make sure gate time is long as well.

I'd prefer there was a document supplied by Yamaha that outlines which notes are employed by each ARP (drum, melodic, etc). However, some additional information was requested and support told the community to write the documentation (i.e. Yamaha threw up their hands). Therefore, there isn't a straight-forward way without doing some work to discover which drum keys are used by a given ARP.

 
Posted : 19/01/2023 4:32 pm
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