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How do I shift one part of a performance an Octave using one of the assignable switches?

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I can use a square wave shape to shift the pitch with a button but I can't get it to an exact octave? I need 3 parts active on the keyboard and need to be able to shift the lowest part and octave hands-free at times ( I'm using a pedal board to set the assignable buttons on or off). Thanks!

 
Posted : 29/08/2023 8:11 pm
Jason
Posts: 7907
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Yes - pitch is a little tricky since there's not an exact amount of shift that gives you discrete notes (as in western music pitches A, B, C, ... ). Since an octave is easier math (doubling of the frequency) - it "should" be easier to achieve an octave.

Are you using the square wave shape of an LFO or is this using the control assignments (motion control) with source/destinations? This would help start out at the right spot with suggestions.

 
Posted : 29/08/2023 8:19 pm
Posts: 773
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I need 3 parts active on the keyboard and need to be able to shift the lowest part and octave hands-free at times

See Bad Mister's article about the assignable switches
https://yamahasynth.com/learn/montage/mastering-montage-13-assign-switches-1-2

If the part is AWM2 then one way is to BURN a part:

1. Copy the part you want to shift and create a new part.
2. Program the two parts to use different octaves.
3. Edit one part and go to the 'Part Settings -> Pitch screen
4. Change the 'Note Shift' parameter to +12 or -12 for an octave
5. On each Elements 'Osc / Tune' screen set the XA Control to the needed assignable switch value

If the part is FM-X the above won't work but you can still burn a part and then switch the two
parts in/out by other means.

Provide more detail about your configuration.

 
Posted : 29/08/2023 9:14 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

[quotePost id=122991]I can use a square wave shape to shift the pitch with a button but I can't get it to an exact octave? I need 3 parts active on the keyboard and need to be able to shift the lowest part and octave hands-free at times ( I'm using a pedal board to set the assignable buttons on or off). Thanks![/quotePost]You can shift the Pitch precisely one octave by adjusting the distance via the “Ratio” parameter. It is the Control Assign settings (Curve Type, Polarity, Ratio, and (shape) Param1) which allow you select “Source” (controller) and target a “Destination” (parameter); and it lets you scale the application of change.

This assignment is not done at the Part level of the AWM2 architecture, but rather at the deeper Element level.

Here’s why…
In the sampled-based world of AWM2 each oscillator can be heard and tuned individually.
If your Part is FM-X, the individual tuning of each oscillator is not necessarily heard, at all. FM-X would require an entirely different approach as tuning in FM is entirely different.
The explanation here is for sampled-based, AWM2, Parts.

Select a Controller, for example, “Assign Sw 1”.
With the “Auto Select” box active (green) touch the Switch… it will appear in the “Display Filter”
You can create an assignment as follows: in the Control Assign area, tap “+” to add a “Destination” > tap the box to open the target parameter options > select “Element” > “Coarse”.

This makes the tuning of each active AWM2 Element available to the Source Controller, like your Assign Switch; you can then operate that switch with a CC message from your pedal board.
Assign Switch 1 = cc86 (default) you can change the default Control Numbers as required
Assign Switch 2 = cc87 (default)

Curve Type = Standard
Polarity = Uni
Ratio = +16*
Param1 = 5

By selecting Coarse (an Element parameter) and opting ‘in’ on each active Element, you can shift the tuning one octave. It is not calibrated in Equal Temperament semitone steps. But 16 steps will actually be one octave. +32 would be two octaves.

If you attempt to assign the Part parameter, “Pitch”, you will have no success in getting an exact octave.

You can accomplish the goal by assigning at the Element level of the architecture.
Why the Element parameter? Notice you can opt in or out on a per-Element basis. You can choose which Elements will follow this control command and which will ignore it. This will be useful when your AWM2 Part includes some components that you do not want to pitch change (like KeyOff noise, or other fixed frequency components)… or when you want some of the Elements to change in one direction, and by creating a second control setup to take the other Elements in a different direction.

Extra Credit
A positive Ratio setting of +16 will play at the original pitch initially, and when the Switch is engaged it will shift up one octave. A Ratio setting of -16 would drop the pitch down one octave.

The Assign Switches can be programmed per Performance, momentary or latch.
If your AsSw1 and AsSw2 are already being used (XA Control, etc) and you need to avoid the conflict, you can opt to use the [MS Hold] or [MS Trigger] switches, cc88 and cc89 respectively.
MS Hold is latch
MS Trigger is momentary

 
Posted : 29/08/2023 10:40 pm
Jason
Posts: 7907
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I guess I should also say that if you pitch shift a sampled waveform by an octave then you may notice the resulting sound doesn't sound like the same note played an octave away (whichever direction you're shifting). Shifting up the effect could be called "chipmunking" as in Alvin and the Chipmunks since those creature voices were created by pitch shifting up normal voices. Depending on the sample, a pitch shifted sound could loose significant "character" in the shifted version vs. the same note played an octave away and not shifted. Ultimately if you want to pitch shift is up to you.

If I had 3 Parts I wanted to have [ASSIGN 1] and [ASSIGN 2] change the octaves of say Parts 1 and 2 then I would use note shift instead.

XA control is kind of limited in that you cannot say "do something if ASSIGN 1 is OFF" or "do something if ASSIGN 2 is OFF". You only have the option of "If ASSIGN1 and 2 are both off" for the off state. Therefore, we have to come up with another way to control things so we get the granularity we're looking for.

Part 1: Sound A - no pitch shift (only sounds when ASSIGN 1 is OFF)

This means if ASSIGN 1 is OFF and ASSIGN 2 is OFF -or- ON. You cannot do this completely with XA control - so we have to compensate.
I would not use XA control - so this Part plays no matter what (and consumes polyphony) - but I would use motion control tou use ASSIGN 1 as a source and volume as a destination. When ASSIGN 1 is ON - subtract the volume by the maximum amount so this will silence Part 1.
Part 2: Sound B - no pitch shift (only sounds when ASSIGN 2 is OFF)
Same pattern as Part 1 - we'll have to do something fancy to get this to work. Copy the same pattern
Part 3: Sound A - octave pitch shifted using note shift (only sounds when ASSIGN 1 is ON by using XA control)
Part 4: Sound B - octave pitch shifted using note shift (only sounds when ASSIGN 2 is ON by using XA control)

Parts 3 and 4 will not be activated unless their corresponding button is turned on - so they don't consume more polyphony if the button associated with the Part is OFF.

Part 5: Sound C (no octave shifting)

This is a writeup if I wanted 2 different sounds octave shifted and control over the octave of each AND didn't want "chipmunking".

With only one sound to octave shift XA control works and you can save polyphony. I think this matches your ask:

Part 1: Sound A - no pitch shift (only sounds when ASSIGN 1 -and- ASSIGN 2 are OFF using XA control)
Part 2: Sound A - octave pitch shifted using note shift (only sounds when ASSIGN 1 is ON using XA control)
Part 3: Sound B (no octave shifting)
Part 4: Sound C (no octave shifting)

 
Posted : 29/08/2023 11:36 pm
Posts: 773
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By selecting Coarse (an Element parameter) and opting ‘in’ on each active Element, you can shift the tuning one octave. It is not calibrated in Equal Temperament steps. But 16 steps will actually be one octave. +32 would be two octaves.

Interesting info - but I don't understand the correlation between 16 steps of ratio being one octave while 12 steps of the Coarse parameter is one octave.

I also can't find any documentation that explains how the ratio steps affect things.

My initial testing involves using the settings you provided on an INIT NORMAL (AWM2)
and playing middle C (C3)

1. Playing middle C plays C3
1. changing the Coarse parameter to +12 effects a one octave change -playing C3 produces C4
2. or changing the ratio setting to +16 effects a one octave change - playing C3 produces C4
3. or changing the ratio setting to +32 effects a two octave change - playing C3 produces C5

All as you describe

BUT

4. Any ratio value from +32 to +63 also effects only a two octave change.

Based solely on your description in the quote above I expected a ratio of 48 to effect a 3 octave
change and a ratio of 64 to effect a 4 octave change.

Can you explain in more detail how the Control Assign curve and ratio setting interact with the element Coarse setting to achieve the result you describe?

An assign switch is boolean - ON or OFF. Does OFF represent 0 and map to the leftmost position on the chosen curve?

Changing Polarity to 'BI' with a ratio of +32 and playing C3 produces the sound of C2. So the curve appears to go from -16 to +16 so appears to shift everything down an octave.

 
Posted : 29/08/2023 11:41 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

Interesting info - but I don't understand the correlation between 16 steps of ratio being one octave while 12 steps of the Coarse parameter is one octave.

The Ratio determines how minimum-to-maximum is applied to change in the target parameter in question.
A Controller typically has a one hundred twenty-eight step (0-127) resolution.
Some are 0 through 127 (knobs, MW, FC pedals) others are 0 or 127 (switch, Footswitch)
Each Destination parameter may have a different value range to control — it is depending on the selected parameter. The Controller resolution remains 0-127… no matter how the Destination parameter’s range of values are configured.

When discussing Coarse tuning of traditional musical instruments 12 steps = an octave… because a musical octave is divided into 12 equal steps to make an Equal Temperament scale. Each semitone is 1/12th of an octave.

Controlling the pitch with 12 specific keys is obviously the best way to address the Equal Temperament scale where each Note is 1/12th of octave apart.

Assigning this Coarse tuning parameter to a Controller that has 128 steps, 0-127, resolution (like a knob, pedal, MW, switch, etc) and the subdivisions are not the same. The values that are accessed by the Controller are calibrated with a slightly higher resolution so that using the Standard Curve Type, +16 = an octave.
+32 = two octaves.

Why 16? (Why not…) 8 is a computer-friendly value, (and should deliver the tritone-dividing the octave in half), so 16 happens to be the setting calibrated for an octave.

Notice in the Control Assign Curve graphic, while you increase the Ratio from +16 to +32… when you reach Ratio = +32 you have reached ceiling (upper boundary)… the ramp meets the upper most level at the upper right corner… you cannot go higher than the ceiling. You can never go higher than the ceiling!

If you continue to increase to +33 and beyond toward +63, you still do not go higher than the ceiling. You do, however, change “how fast” (how early) the controller will reach maximum.

If 0-127 is being sent from the MW, for example, Ratio values higher than +33 affect how early in its movement it reaches maximum. Controller movement is represented by left-to-right along the graphic. Left side is minimum, right side is controller at maximum.

Say you set Ratio = +63, by the time the MW is precisely half-way up, the maximum parameter value will be reached. When +63 is the Ratio, maximum has not changed, but how soon in the Controller’s travel it reaches max value, has changed.

Moving the MW beyond half-way simply causes the same setting from that point on.

Ratio Values from 0 through +32 directly affect “how much”. You can see it — now while seeing it understand what you are hearing.

About Coarse Tune:
Two octaves is the upper limit to which you can stretch an AWM2 sample (2 Octaves). The sound is useable (free of artifacts) through to this upper limit. Sampled audio will degrade when stretched too far… AWM2 has this as part of its system.

All as you describe

BUT

4. Any ratio value from +32 to +63 also effects only a two octave change.

Based solely on your description in the quote above I expected a ratio of 48 to effect a 3 octave
change and a ratio of 64 to effect a 4 octave change.

I did not mention Ratios above +32 (33-63) for this particular Destination parameter (Coarse tuning) because there is nothing more for it to do once the upper limit (2 octaves) ceiling of Coarse tuning is reached.

You can’t turn volume up beyond 127
You can’t turn volume down below 0
All results beyond the limit are fixed to reproduce at that limit.
You can’t turn a parameter’s setting beyond its working limits.
Don’t stand on Superman’s cape and don’t spit into the wind…

 
Posted : 30/08/2023 2:03 am
Posts: 773
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Thanks for the details - I understand the bulk of what you were saying.

But still don't understand the mapping between the max ratio setting (the rightmost value)
and the max Coarse Tune setting.

About Coarse Tune:
Two octaves is the upper limit to which you can stretch an AWM2 sample (2 Octaves).

My tests show that two octaves is, indeed, the max that changing the RATIO setting will do.

But I can play middle C and change the Course setting 4 octaves:

1. Coarse = 0 -> C3
2. Coarse = 12 -> C4
3. Coarse = 24 -> C5
4. Coarse = 36 -> C6
5. Coarse = 48 -> C7

The Middle C sample (CF3 Stretch Sw St for INIT NORMAL) appears to stretch 4 octaves.

But using Ratio won't stretch more than 2 octaves. That suggests that the ratio setting is mapping to
a Coarse value of 24 rather than the actual coarse max of 48.

Using Coarse = 24 maps middle C to C5 and then the Ratio setting can offset it another two octaves.

So the RATIO and curve appear to be able to map a two octave range based on the setting of the Coarse parameter.

Thanks for taking time away from your Montage M8X work to provide the explanation. LOL!

 
Posted : 30/08/2023 2:51 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

To be clear, I am addressing controlling the normal pitch via the “Coarse” tuning parameter, specifically using the default Curve Type = Standard, Polarity = Uni, under these conditions a Ratio setting of +16 will be an Octave above the nominal pitch at 0 minimum.

A Switch would only have two settings a minimum (start) and a maximum (ceiling)
A Knob would have minimum (start) and all values through to a maximum (ceiling)

When using an Assign Knob as the Controller, the Uni Polarity vs Bi Polarity setting will play an important role. Uni will be 0 thru 127, Bi can introduce -64 ~ 0 ~ +63… the concept of center start position.

Alternate Settings Example:
If, in my example, you set the Polarity = Bi (maintaining the Standard Curve Type) you now have control over the pitch range both above and below the initial pitch (2oct up + 2oct down = a total of 4oct range).

The Pitch (Coarse tuning) starts from a nominal center position. This means when an Assign Knob is set to 12 o’clock, the pitch will play normally… turning the knob clockwise from that position will raise the pitch, turning counterclockwise from center will lower the pitch…

When the positive Ratio is set to the maximum value (+63) the graphic will show you the longest travel between a minimum and a maximum. Notice when Bi is the Polarity, the ‘minimum’ possible value is located in the extreme lower left corner. Maximum is still the upper right corner. (Contrast that to where ‘minimum is when Polarity is Uni).

2 octaves below the start point… and 2 octaves above the start point = 4 Octave range of travel overall.

Now, a Ratio setting of +32 units will approximately shift the pitch an octave higher… the maximum +Ratio gives you approximately a 2 octave positive shift… While the minimum at this setting gives you 2 octaves below normal pitch.

Summary:
Polarity = Uni _ the start pitch changes in one direction and back. (+) positive setting go higher in pitch clockwise and return back to the original pitch on the return trip.

Polarity = Bi _the start pitch is centered, travel goes in either direction from its start position, higher or lower and then back to the original.

Play with it some more.
There is (as I’m fond of saying) never just one way to approach solving an issue.

Extra Credit:
Audio, by its nature, degrades the farther you stretch it from it original pitch. On “synthy” sounds this may not be a problem, but on sounds like acoustic pianos, the degradation can be somewhat tragic. Your mileage will vary based on the sound to which you are applying this… an Octave shift as requested by the Original Poster, is likely better handled as suggested in my initial response using a Switch (minimum or maximum), and using the Uni Polarity since it can handle the toggle between octaves.

The only reason we used an Assign Knob in the explanation is to give an example of how the data can be applied when a gradual transition is required.

Hope that helps.

 
Posted : 30/08/2023 11:02 pm
Jason
Posts: 7907
Illustrious Member
 

But using Ratio won't stretch more than 2 octaves. That suggests that the ratio setting is mapping to
a Coarse value of 24 rather than the actual coarse max of 48.

This is not the correct interpretation. When you're offsetting any pitch in motion control (no matter which pitch destination you choose) you are always telling the keyboard to stretch the pitch. There's a finite limit to how much you can stretch which is why you hear the same pitch once the limit is found.

What you're seeing is this: hitting a ceiling. This is everywhere. If your volume is already 100, your offsetting may calculate to +64 units of volume but the volume response is to call anything above 127 as 127. BM describes this already previously.

On top of this, keys between samples (meaning the pitches that do not stretch as samples sample root key if you prefer -- and keys between these samples are stretched unless you happen to be using a waveform that puts a sample on every key) are being told to stretch. They are already using therefore part of the stretch budget. This is why for some sounds that use waveforms with sparse samples you may try to offset pitch and see that several keys -maybe even 5 or more in a row will hit the ceiling until you reach the next key with a sample.

Therefore you could get unlucky and the notes you want to play can't be stretched up an octave because the stretching of being far away from the last sampled key already puts you high enough to loose the margin you would need.

This all applies to AWM2 of course. FM-X wouldn't have these pitch constraints nor would a pitch offset note ever sound different than the note played with no offset an octave away. Therefore if you get caught in a tough spot due to an unlucky waveform you might be able to go FM-X to bail yourself out assuming you find a way to get the desired sound.

 
Posted : 31/08/2023 3:08 am
Posts: 773
Prominent Member
 

When you're offsetting any pitch in motion control (no matter which pitch destination you choose) you are always telling the keyboard to stretch the pitch.

Aren't you doing that when you use Coarse also?

I used C3, middle C, and you can change Coarse and go 4 octaves. But you can only go 2 octaves with Ratio.

Aren't they both using the same middle C sample? Or both using the same middle C multi-sample?

What I said earlier:

The Middle C sample (CF3 Stretch Sw St for INIT NORMAL) appears to stretch 4 octaves.

Are you saying that using Coarse uses a different sample from the middle C multi-sample to get to 4 octaves but that Ratio is trying to stretch a single sample and can only go 2 octaves?

 
Posted : 31/08/2023 3:37 am
Posts: 0
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Topic starter
 

Curve Type = Standard
Polarity = Uni
Ratio = +16*
Param1 = 5

By selecting Coarse (an Element parameter) and opting ‘in’ on each active Element, you can shift the tuning one octave. It is not calibrated in Equal Temperament steps. But 16 steps will actually be one octave. +32 would be two octaves.

If you attempt to assign the Part parameter, “Pitch”, you will have no success in getting an exact octave.

Thanks Bad Mister and everyone for the help. I was trying to shift the Pitch Parameter of the part rather than the coarse tuning of the oscillators. I'm glad I I didn't have to burn an extra part pitch shifted an octave to accomplish what I needed ( I'm already using 7 parts for the song). And thanks for the tip on using the motion sequence buttons as additional assignable switches - I've never done that. I don't post much but this forum is such a wonderful resource. And the Montage has been a revolutionary synth (I'm anxiously looking forward to the next version even though I don't really need an upgrade). But I do hope that pitch shifting parts by more than +/- 2 octaves has made it into the Montage successor - that's been my only issue with the Montage.

 
Posted : 04/09/2023 2:17 pm
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

[quotePost id=123043]
I'm glad I I didn't have to burn an extra part pitch shifted an octave to accomplish what I needed ( I'm already using 7 parts for the song).[/quotePost]

I compress and manage such things on the element-level. If your sound has less than 4 elements, you can also copy the elements and control them by XA Control. Because this element-layering is not the hit imho, you could also delete some and bring the amount to 4 and below 😉
I also use this to create virtual splits without using an additional part.
You don't even need a hand/foot, if you are using a sequence-chain. "Empty" sequences on e.g. 2 scenes, chaining it according to your song. The chain will change the scene for you. Not flexible, but if not in a jam-session a proper use.

 
Posted : 09/09/2023 3:55 pm
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