Synth Forum

Notifications
Clear all

Montage 7 upgrade: Choosing between a Montage M7 or M8x

19 Posts
12 Users
0 Likes
445 Views
 A
Posts: 0
New Member
Topic starter
 

Excited as I was to see the new Montage M launch, I was a bit disappointed on seeing the specs. I had hoped to upgrade to a 88 key version, but only if they shortened it by 4 to 6 inches and reduced the weight by 6 to 8 lbs. (Like some other 88 note keyboards). Sadly that did not happen. So, heh-ho, I guess I will be stuck with the M7 to replace my Montage 7.
But hold on - what about Poly AT? The sales hype for this ‘must have’ has got me convincing myself I could live with the extra 8 inch length and the hernia from lifting an M8x.
But in reality, how the heck do you play using Poly AT (fingering wise)?
If I set the Poly AT control destination to LFO, for say vibrato, I can use it on Strings in mono – one key being pressed. If I press two (or more) keys with different pressures I could vary vibrato per note.
But what is the end result – how does this sound - how does it represent playing a real instrument?
So, in general, for what Category sounds is Poly AT really useful (and is better than Mono AT), how do you play the notes and are there any demos out there?

 
Posted : 28/10/2023 9:07 am
Christopher
Posts: 0
New Member
 

[quotePost id=124074]Get the M8x and forget the other two exist. They're obsolete on arrival.

Not only does the M8x have poly Aftertouch, it's also got whatever else they can add to the constant sensing the keys do, which should happen in the product's lifetime, and give some expressive control beyond mere pressure.

As to how best to think of using poly Aftertouch, it depends on your style of playing, a great deal.

Which Yamaha seems behind on providing any examples of, as it looks like this product was rushed. Manuals aren't nearly complete, the preview materials are shoddy and folks like distributors and tech partners are being relied upon, after release, to demo some of the sounds and features. None of which has been done well, let alone convincingly, yet.

[/quotePost]
Agree, get the M8x and be glad you did. The GEX key bed is really nice and PAT is very cool and can have many uses not only for the wilder side, but also acoustic instrument expression.

Also, it’s nice to see I’m not crazy and think the same regarding the manual and general information available being very lacking so far. I imagine we will be seeing some improvements in these areas eventually. We have the plug-in to look forward to. Although another quick firmware update with some tweaks would be nice.

 
Posted : 28/10/2023 2:24 pm
Darryl
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
 

[quotePost id=124072]But hold on - what about Poly AT? The sales hype for this ‘must have’ has got me convincing myself I could live with the extra 8 inch length and the hernia from lifting an M8x.
But in reality, how the heck do you play using Poly AT (fingering wise)?
So, in general, for what Category sounds is Poly AT really useful (and is better than Mono AT), how do you play the notes and are there any demos out there?
[/quotePost]
I was kinda in the same boat 5 years ago. Poly AT is not what I really care for and at that time I was just looking for the best new Synth/Workstation for playing pianos, but also with the best polyphony for sequencing everything in a DAW. It came down to the MODX8 the Montage 8 and the Kronos 88
After playing the MODX8's GHS keybed, I was extremely disappointed in how bad it was for playing pianos. Then by chance I was able to demo a Montage 8 and in contrast it was so much more awesome, so I ended up spending more than I could really afford on a synth that is twice the weight in order to get what I wanted. And having the regular aftertouch was a bonus.
Regarding lugging it around to gigs, I would suggest researching a good quality dolly/hand truck that can easily go up/down stairs + good straps to hold the synth to it... Then you are really only carrying it off the stand from home onto the hand truck/dolly, and then back onto the stand at the gig! Don't forget to lift with your legs :p

Regarding Poly AT, Dom Sigalas shows it off a bit here. It also shows off the AN-X and how good it really is at emulating analog synthesis the closest possible. There might better demos out there if you search, but here is something that clearly shows what can be done with the GEX Poly AT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g37krx2ZhOQ

 
Posted : 28/10/2023 3:31 pm
Posts: 753
Prominent Member
 

But in reality, how the heck do you play using Poly AT (fingering wise)?

PHYSICALLY - after a key is 'down' you can apply additional pressure to trigger Poly AT. You
can get ~1/8 inch of additional key travel while the key is still down (i.e. there has not
yet been a KEY OFF event).

You have that 1/8" of 'wiggle room' to move the key slightly, even repeatedly, up and down without triggering the KEY OFF event.

LOGICALLY - See page 291 of the Operations doc
https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/2/2172442/MONTAGE-M_OM_En_v111_A0_web.pdf

Poly AT is a new control source on a new 'Mod Control -> After Touch' tab.
The destination can be 'either 'Pitch' for the part or one of 10 element parameters:
Level, Pan, LFO Speed, LFO PMD, LFO AMD, LFO FMD, Fine, Cutoff, Resonance, HPF Cutoff.

For an element parameter destination you can then set the ON/OFF value for each
element (up to 128) in the part.

But what is the end result – how does this sound - how does it represent playing a real instrument?

You'll have to answer that one yourself by either trying it or finding a good demo. And right now there are only a few demos out and they only touch the surface of what is possible.

and reduced the weight by 6 to 8 lbs.

The instrument itself is about 62 lbs. and for any real protection during transport you are going to want a hard case and that will add more lbs. I've noticed Gator doesn't even include
weight in the specs for their cases and I haven't seen a new case yet from them specifically for
the 88 key model.

Their standard/generic 88 key hard case dimensions are slightly SMALLER than the M8X. I haven't actually tried one but based on dimensions alone they are not a match - you would
need one of their larger models.

 
Posted : 28/10/2023 6:04 pm
Jason
Posts: 7889
Illustrious Member
 

For me the 88 key never made any sense no matter how great it was (and I thought it was great action for what I was doing). That was the Montage classic time. The calculations haven't changed since then. I'm no more capable of lugging around equipment almost a decade later. My vehicle situation has actually gotten smaller since then and the 88 was a tight squeeze.

The 88 still doesn't make any sense for practical reasons.

My plan was to wait around and see what happens on the 50th anniversary since I don't generally snap to get new gear. The classic Montage is already covering the bases I need covered professionally.

And if still no PAT or other options have been presented after a year I saw getting the M7 again and getting a PAT MIDI controller for those few songs where I could use PAT (where I have a direct plan to use it today). Having a loosely integrated external controller without all of the scene buttons and other buttons is a compromise but I'd be going this route for a minority of tunes.

As time has gone by since I formulated this plan - my thoughts have been able to wander about at other possibilities.

I could also get the 88 which would stay in the studio mostly. I don't see that I would really want to lug it around just because now I get the PAT feature + control integration + larger canvas for splits. The weight and size is a huge problem. But ... as even a bigger compromise - I could use the ESP (VST) version of Montage in live situations with a PAT MIDI controller. A lot of this depends on how many controls that I use live (like scene buttons, live set screen) get integrated into the ESP software. If the right controls are there (touch versions of scene buttons, live set selection, etc) then I may not need a keyboard with 1:1 controls/buttons found on the physical Montage M.

There's still a big leap of faith to be made any way I cut it. Getting an M8X earlier would be risky vs. waiting around and seeing what develops.

 
Posted : 28/10/2023 6:04 pm
Christopher
Posts: 0
New Member
 

There are players with different wants and needs. If I wanted a keyboard for giging the M8x would probably not be it. Well unless I had roadies to lug it around. I wanted a great full size keyboard with great piano like action. I have nice synth action type controllers and older synths. I’m 58 and will not be playing out much and besides I would be playing guitar since that’s my main instrument. The M8x is a piece of studio gear. Not that I would never, ever carefully take it out for a special occasion, but that’s not why I bought it. Finally, the PAT is just cool and I love it. It’s another way to add expressiveness from an instrument that struggles to be expressive like a guitar or other acoustic type instrument.

Honestly, I really don’t understand all this debate and drama about the new Montage M series. Get what you need. Get it from another company if you have to.

 
Posted : 28/10/2023 7:50 pm
david
Posts: 0
Reputable Member
 

Go read my long opinion concerning the M and which to choose on Yamaha Musician forum. It makes sense but of course you can go buy anything and/or as many units as you like.

 
Posted : 29/10/2023 7:15 pm
 A
Posts: 0
New Member
Topic starter
 

Well, lots of answers to my original post, thanks very much for all your efforts.

However, it is now all academic, as Yamaha has changed its sales method for all new gear from this year, sold in Europe. Here in UK, previous models were sold by dealers who offered competing terms, discounts, guarantees and in stock supply. Now they are just agents for the sale, and product comes direct from Yamaha, with a 2 week delay, no discount – everyone pays top price – no mention of guarantee or repair method. Terms published are all about Yamaha’s rights. (This method applies to the new Clavinova‘s too. Older models sell using old method.)
I notice that USA stores still use the old system, with discounts etc. Also Thomman Europe has declined to act as agent, so will not sell new Yamaha products. That alone says it all.

So disappointing but there is no way I am upgrading to a M7 and having to pay 60% more than my 3 year old Montage 7, with an onerous contract. Maybe they will relent if they can’t sell many, but I won’t hold my breath.

I have have 5 big Yamaha synths since my DX in 1988, and I reckon the hardware side and sounds are very good. Pity that greed and corporate control has now appeared (for Europe anyway). I will keep the old Montage for now, then change maker to a company cheaper and more user friendly than the new style Yamaha.

Thanks again all.

 
Posted : 03/11/2023 10:34 pm
 John
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

That is very disappointing news for all of us in the UK. I own 3 Yamaha synths and eventually would probably get the M7, but not if the prices in the UK are being kept deliberately high by Yamaha.

 
Posted : 04/11/2023 8:13 am
Dragos
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

No buy from me in current conditions.
An M6 in this direct sales approach is more expensive than a Fantom 8 at Thomann.
Still, Yamaha seem to have no problems selling them, so this might not change.

 
Posted : 04/11/2023 9:40 am
Darryl
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
 

[quotePost id=124254]However, it is now all academic, as Yamaha has changed its sales method for all new gear from this year, sold in Europe. Here in UK, previous models were sold by dealers who offered competing terms, discounts, guarantees and in stock supply. Now they are just agents for the sale, and product comes direct from Yamaha, with a 2 week delay, no discount – everyone pays top price – no mention of guarantee or repair method. Terms published are all about Yamaha’s rights. (This method applies to the new Clavinova‘s too. Older models sell using old method.)
I notice that USA stores still use the old system, with discounts etc. Also Thomman Europe has declined to act as agent, so will not sell new Yamaha products. That alone says it all.
So disappointing but there is no way I am upgrading to a M7 and having to pay 60% more than my 3 year old Montage 7, with an onerous contract. Maybe they will relent if they can’t sell many, but I won’t hold my breath.
[/quotePost]
Yeah this is not fair that Yamaha change the sales model for everywhere else except in the US. No offense to anyone in the US intended, but this should be the same equal access to deals and ability to buy a synth (or lack there of) at 'any' music store 'everywhere' on the planet, and not just in one single country only!

In Canada, we appear to have the same sales model with Yamaha as in the UK, Europe, etc., except there is not a single store that I'm aware of in all of Canada that has one of these new synths to even demo.

Perhaps this will all change once sales simmer down and Yamaha (hopefully) start providing deals as incentive like the stores would normally have..!? Right now is not a good time while it is still too new a product & they are selling out all their manufactured stock fast, but in 6 months to a year+, sales will eventually/naturally simmer down..!? The question is, will Yamaha ever give customers a discount or will they go full profit margins on all the rest of the world, except for the US..? Unless you live in the US or money is no object, it's unfortunate for many that it's probably best to wait a while before trading up.

 
Posted : 04/11/2023 4:50 pm
 Paul
Posts: 0
Active Member
 

I've been following the discussion about European sales practices with considerable interest.

One factor in the U.S.A. is the thicket of laws governing sales, distribution, dealers, etc. Not only are there federal laws (i.e., the U.S. part), there are state-level laws, too. Not all of the state-level laws are uniform. Thus, Yamaha's attorneys might have a problem finding a practice that works in every one of the 50 states.

Good Lord, I barely know anything about IC design -- and far, far less about U.S. and state law as it applies to distribution, dealers, agents, and so forth.

I wish everyone the best -- pj

 
Posted : 04/11/2023 5:14 pm
Posts: 0
New Member
 

[quotePost id=124277][quotePost id=124254]However, it is now all academic, as Yamaha has changed its sales method for all new gear from this year, sold in Europe. Here in UK, previous models were sold by dealers who offered competing terms, discounts, guarantees and in stock supply. Now they are just agents for the sale, and product comes direct from Yamaha, with a 2 week delay, no discount – everyone pays top price – no mention of guarantee or repair method. Terms published are all about Yamaha’s rights. (This method applies to the new Clavinova‘s too. Older models sell using old method.)
I notice that USA stores still use the old system, with discounts etc. Also Thomman Europe has declined to act as agent, so will not sell new Yamaha products. That alone says it all.
So disappointing but there is no way I am upgrading to a M7 and having to pay 60% more than my 3 year old Montage 7, with an onerous contract. Maybe they will relent if they can’t sell many, but I won’t hold my breath.
[/quotePost]
Yeah this is not fair that Yamaha change the sales model for everywhere else except in the US. No offense to anyone in the US intended, but this should be the same equal access to deals and ability to buy a synth (or lack there of) at 'any' music store 'everywhere' on the planet, and not just in one single country only!

In Canada, we appear to have the same sales model with Yamaha as in the UK, Europe, etc., except there is not a single store that I'm aware of in all of Canada that has one of these new synths to even demo.

Perhaps this will all change once sales simmer down and Yamaha (hopefully) start providing deals as incentive like the stores would normally have..!? Right now is not a good time while it is still too new a product & they are selling out all their manufactured stock fast, but in 6 months to a year+, sales will eventually/naturally simmer down..!? The question is, will Yamaha ever give customers a discount or will they go full profit margins on all the rest of the world, except for the US..? Unless you live in the US or money is no object, it's unfortunate for many that it's probably best to wait a while before trading up.[/quotePost]

Long & McQuade; New In Stock: Calgary, Langley and Toronto. CANADA.
Tom Lee Music, CANADA.

 
Posted : 04/11/2023 5:21 pm
 John
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

People might find the article below about price fixing interesting:-

https://www.musicradar.com/news/my-instrument-claim-legal-case

 
Posted : 04/11/2023 5:46 pm
 dave
Posts: 0
Active Member
 

so these are my thoughts, M8X fantastic keyboard, poly after touch suburb, if you are a good player then its a no brainer get it but I am not a good player never will be, much to my frustration, M8X is enormous and heavy, going to need a big desk and deep pockets, and need to go to the gym to lug it around, so I bought the M6 my first montage, which replaced my Akai key 61, the M6 is bigger, heavier and twice the price of my Akai key 61, is it twice as good no its not, is it better not sure yet, so the having 3 variations is a good idea, poly after touch not much use to me because of my playing ability will not get the most out of this technology, and would not pay over 4k for a keyboard, i still working my way through it and learning it, i have had keyboards since 1977 so had a lot of them lost count now ,Yamaha tell me its better than the old montage it might be but its not as good as it should be for the price, my Akai key 61 is just as good for half the price and easier to use, jury is still out

 
Posted : 04/11/2023 8:21 pm
Page 1 / 2
Share:

© 2024 Yamaha Corporation of America and Yamaha Corporation. All rights reserved.    Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us