You cannot yet be (fully) disappointed 🙂 unless you have touched, played and heard the Reface; you cannot draw any meaningful conclusions about it until you do IMHO. As to price: it is far far less expensive than the items you've mentioned (as cutting edge). These Reface instruments are designed for keyboard players, those items you've mentioned (afaik) are for knob tweakers (which is fine, if that is what you are into...) I get it. So I'm just putting that out there for your thoughts.

...Price, price, price. If I showed you a couple of plates of food. Could you judge the price and quality just based on the amount (size) of the food on the plate. The food from a fast food restaurant chain (take your pick, I don't want to dis any particular chain here), and then a plate from your favorite gourmet steak restaurant. The amount of food on the two plates looks to be about the same _ but do you see where I'm going? Until you've played the units... you cannot know the experience. I would simply ask you to reserve your full judgement on them until you do. I think that is fair.

Yes, I understand what you are saying... why looking back and not pushing the envelope? (and without getting into the obvious business answers) We get that from all sides. "How dare Yamaha sit on all those great technologies of the past!!!" yell some folks. "How dare Yamaha not make these forward looking next generation cutting edge technology!!!" We are damned if we do and damned if we don't _ so we are fairly waterproof and have a very thick skin on these kinds of criticism. You will NEVER make everyone happy. That's this business... We serve several niche's within a niche business.

Price is all I've heard so far. I know how GOOD they sound. And at the end of the day that is what is important. And trust me, they do sound really good folks, really, really good. So price is just a number, a perception, an expectation. I imagine most people have spent more on a single EFFECT box than these cost and the Reface are far, far less expensive than the other products you mentioned (what do those products you mention cost, approximately?) I bet they are more; so I simply ask you to wait and reserve judgement... At least until you sit down and play them _ nothing looks more like a toy than some of the newer cutting edge stuff (can we agree on that?). These Reface units impress everyone that gets hands-on. Granted it is a limited set of folks who have seen them _ NAMM opens today, so... the numbers are going up as we type here...

That doesn't mean you will like them (they are not for everyone) but they are far more substantial than one can tell who hasn't held one. So back to "why backwards?"... I'm not sure, because ("how come" type questions are always answered with conjecture, really) the answers always have to start with "BECAUSE..." because we could, I guess. Let's take the YC (it has 5 classic organ Voice: a tone wheel organ, 3 transistor organs, and an IC organ) and when you think about it, it comes in at the same price as the most popular rotary speaker effect on the market. Yet it has its own built-in, so sorry, I don't really see the price as a major obstacle. Not when other so-called "mini synths" are much more expensive... really!?!

I think the Reface are in a category of their own... people want to think these are similar to what other manufacturers are doing, and they (simply) are not. So prejudging or trying to Guess and having Guessed Wrong, is what I'm seeing in most posts thus far concerning the Reface units. I think the artists you see in the videos tell the story _ you are seeing their initial reactions, they are not actors, they are musicians. At least wait until you have had that experience yourself, then if you hate it, I can respect that. But don't tell me from looking at a screen that the food doesn't taste good! You can't, not quite yet. Fair enough?

It's gourmet steak, you'll see.

does NOT require that I buy an Apple product to access functionality - yet another piece of equipment and expense.

Point of order... if you are referencing the Reface and the (free) iOS App "Reface Capture" _ That is not the only method to "access functionality", it is not even that. It allows you to STORE your settings. Three of the four Reface instruments are real time items _ means, the front panel is "live" at any time. So to capture your setting (create presets) you can as one option use the iOS app Reface Capture, but if you do not have an Apple iPhone, iPad, etc. you are not out in the cold. Sorry you make it sound like you have to get yet another piece of equipment at some expense... The Reface support Web MIDI and can connect with any Browser... you obviously already have a browser as you have posted here. Plug the Reface into your browser the front panel will show up on the screen and you can keep your sounds that way. Initially, it will be via Google Chrome...

Soundmondo is a free sound sharing community that lets you discover, create and share Reface Voices and Set Lists using Google Chrome any place, any time you’re online. Powered by Web MIDI, Soundmondo is simple to use - just connect Reface to Chrome and you’re ready to create or start browsing.

thank you for completing the survey!

Bad Mister,

I'm grateful for your prompt and professional response. I've been a fan of yours for some time now. I have great respect not only for your experience, but also for your knowledge of Yamaha's vast history of products. I've learned so much from you. Thank you!

I'd like to also add that my experience with a variety of Yamaha's products has always been positive and to me the Yamaha name is synonymous with quality, reliability, and value. I wrote my earlier comments to be constructive.

I mentioned Teenage Engineering for their OP-1 and Elektron for their Monomachine (at minimum) as as recent examples. Yes, they are pricier, but when I was referring to them it was not relative to the Reface's cost. It was to Design. That was not clear. I apologize.

The OP-1 allows for seven types of synthesis including four OP FM, sampling, and looping. The Elektron is notable, at minimum, for its sound manipulation capabilities. Pricier, yes, but those manufacturer's units are much more capable and depending upon the model, people are snapping them up. The designs are appealing and the prices seem secondary.

I also mentioned them because I was expecting, perhaps naively, something from Yamaha entirely different than what was delivered - Reface in its four variations.

Now, I do think the Reface sound is amazing from the online demos I've heard that are available thus far. I think that the DX, CP, and YC are really good. Awesome even. But to get those sounds, I'd have to pay about $1500 USD = 3 x $500 USD.

Price again I know, but - One can get darn close to a MOXF8 for just $200 USD more (or less if on sale) and get so much more for your money and close to those sounds.

If one were to buy an OP-1 and a Elektron Monomachine you'd be out $2100 USD - just $100 USD more than if you bought ALL FOUR Reface modules.

I have to ask though, if these were built for keyboard players, of which I include myself, then why did Yamaha go with small keys? Not many I know like them...

My comment about the Apple product(s) weren't clear. I apologize - again. I meant that relative to the Design of the next Motif. I'd like to see it easy to use as it is rather than as with Reface, requiring an I-Pad or similar to access your presets or as Roland did with its Integra 7 module to manipulate parameters.

With Reface, I understand an Apple product or a computer with web access is required to access functionality. The front panel is live as you say and no presets can be saved without the products. That is functionality and its lost without the other products. This is the type of thing I'd like to avoid. As an Android user, this holds no value for me.as a consumer and if I have to be next to a PC, then that doesn't lend itself to portability....

Please give my thanks to the Yamaha Design Team for the Motif questionnaire. If there are more, I'd participate and perhaps other forum members would as well.

Thank you again.

I have to ask though, if these were built for keyboard players, of which I include myself, then why did Yamaha go with small keys? Not many I know like them...

Because if they were rack mount modules, or built-into individual full size instruments... it wouldn't be as compelling. Strange as that may sound... I will try to explain ...(However if they were rack modules we could charge $999 and no one would blink an eye). But the fact that you CAN take them any place, any time will appeal to some (not all) as that is usually the case.

The technology in the Reface CP, for example, is beyond what you find in the MOXF or the Motif XF. You'll have to play it and feel the response to know what I'm talking about. Spectral Component Modeling (SCM) + AWM as found in the Yamaha CP4 Stage piano. The Rhodes, Wurli and Clav are simply awesome _ and the VCM Effects _ these are again OFF THE CHART good. You'll hear that immediately.

The Reface DX with its multi-touch control area, would not translate to a rack module and is a new unique and compelling interface for FM synthesis from Yamaha. I see this as finding a home as a killer synth bass and synth lead module. And for sound effects like nothing but FM can do.

The Reface YC, putting drawbars on a rack unit (would be ludicrous) the small footprint of the Reface YC means it can sit atop your main controller ax, and you can reach up and grab a handful of drawbars for that type of real time interaction. I think its size is a distinct advantage.

The Reface CS, again, in a rack module you'd need a serious controller to map everything so you could do what is on offer via the front panel.

I don't really think that the idea was to have someone purchase them all... although I guess you could. That would be fantastic, but perhaps not always practical or necessary _ but that is up to the individual. But here is some real world thoughts for those who are not mini-key enthusiasts:

If you already have a CP4 Stage, for example, you might want to add the Reface YC; to cover the organ category. You'd wouldn't need the Reface CP (necessary) _ here I'm assuming you are using the CP4 Stage as your full sized key controller..

If you already own a Motif XF or MOXF, you might have a tough choice, but if analog is your thing, then the Reface CS offers some thing you don't get in a Sample Playback based music production synth. The behavior of its unique virtual analog engine makes a nice change.

But why not put keys on them? The day of owning a van full of keyboards has past (I'm ancient enough to have lived through that golden era of Ultimate Support US22 stands full of keyboards)... an old friend recently posted a cut from an album I played on back in 1975... I was listed in the credits as playing FenderRhodes Electric piano, Arp Odyssey, Arp String ensemble, Clavinet Hohner D6 _ those were the days!!! And I had a floor full of pedals: MuTron III, Morley Wah, MXR chorus, Echoplex tape echo... etc., etc., etc.

Yikes, I think about all that gear _ all that cartage, the Reface has most of that effect processing built-in > accurately modeled effects... I think people have not yet completely comprehended what is on offer in these instruments... The fact that you do not have play the mini-keys, because if the key size is a scary prospect (and so it is, for some folks) it does have MIDI connectivity. It's an interesting question about how many present day musicians MIDI keyboards to modules.

And because there is so much to control _ we don't anticipate the many plastic/fantastic MIDI controllers would be organized enough to assign all the messages you'd need in a convenient layout _ so think of the Reface package as a "front panel" that can be conveniently placed above your principal synth/controller. We recommend a principal controller/synth like a Motif XF or MOXF, or a stage piano like the CP4 Stage... or whatever your main synth or keyboard happens to be...

You will want to be hands-on with Reface front panels. Rack modules? ... old, fading and gone. These small format keyboards will serve two purposes: as stand alone (any time, any place) keyboards (and there will be times when this is appropriate), and they can be that "real time" access front panels when you want to play from your favorite set of 61, 76 or 88 key controller!

My comment about the Apple product(s) weren't clear. I apologize - again. I meant that relative to the Design of the next Motif. I'd like to see it easy to use as it is rather than as with Reface, requiring an I-Pad or similar to access your presets or as Roland did with its Integra 7 module to manipulate parameters.

I guess I wasn't clear either... you, again, do not need or require an iPad to access your presets with Reface, and you certainly don't need it to manipulate any parameters (that is not what it does at all, actually). The iPad is simply one way to organize your own creations. If you do not have any Apple product you have a computer _ and you have a browser. This is new so it may not yet be clear but Web MIDI will become more familiar shortly.

As to the "next Motif" again people are guessing wildly (and most likely guessing completely in the wrong direction) ... what does Reface have to do with the next Motif? Totally separate development. People can have nutty thoughts some times. What do these have to do with any other product that Yamaha is releasing? Nothing at all, actually.

I think you look to enhance the instrument's capabilities by what and how it connects externally. Where Web MIDI goes and how it impacts the future synths and keyboards, who can say? This is all going to be new! But these little guys are going to lead the way through that portal (in a very big way)!

Just how many people will play the mini-keys, that doesn't matter, because it is NOT the only way to take advantage of these unique engines. I love it when people feel compelled to buy them all!!! Wow, I really hadn't anticipated that, but sure, I guess you could. I think they will find an audience both among those who play them and those who will find a way to trigger them. Just my thoughts.

Bad Mister,

Over the years of watching, reading, and learning from you, I've noticed that you consistently demonstrate patience with those with whom you interact and teach. I'd like to thank you for having patience with my questions here on the forum. For me, its paid off.

It's been an insight as to the rack module discussion you offer. That's a viewpoint I hadn't even considered, and more to the point, I believe your are correct on most - if not all - of your points. I knew that Yamaha wasn't going about this willy nilly so to speak, but

I could not grasp as to what it was, and I think you provided clarity. I mentioned earlier that I thought Yamaha provided quality, reliability, and value and with the Reface portables vs. rack mounts it seems that those metrics hold.

You also make a good point too about Reface ownership. I've owned a MOX8 since new. It joined a host of other equipment - both analog and hybrid. It took time, but as I delved deeper and deeper into the MOX, I began to fully realize its capabilities and what Yamaha produced. I was amazed. I literally sold all the other equipment and have focused solely on the MOX and have not looked back. So for me, the Reface may not be a fit. As for the buy them all idea - I guess that's a residual idea coming from having so many choices afforded to us on the Motif / MOXF and may not be realistic for most if not all save for collectors.

That said, I think you may have inadvertently hit upon something - "What does Reface have to do with the next Motif"? That's probably on everyone's mind to be sure. The Motif is so good, and Reface was so unexpected, that I would imagine it makes people wonder. Totally separate development. I get it. New instruments are being released, not replacing nor forecasting Motif direction. Nut cracked....

As for the Web MIDI, I'm looking forward to it. I've used it before with Yamaha's recent acquisition (Line 6) and think it will be successful. My comments about tech before just reflected the admiration of the ability of the Motif / MOXF to do so much within itself - by itself.

Lastly, I'd like to say I really like what I hear coming out of the DX, CP, and YC.

Thank you for listening....

Again, thanks for your thoughts.

Think of each of these as specialist. The Music Production Synthesizer concept (Motif, and MO/MOX/MOXF0-series) was to provide a wide variety of quality sounds. Then you have specialist keyboards... the CP4 Stage has technology developed specifically to enhance the reproduction of piano and vintage piano sound category. It's all in the details, which as you now know, is really where you begin to appreciate what a product (in this case, an instrument) can do. Without getting too deep into it... It's all about capturing the subtle behaviors that are so important to musical expression.

If you think of the Reface as individual specialists in their category, then you can focus in on which one fills a need you might have (as a tone source). Like I said having a CP4 Stage and a Reface CP only makes sense if you are one who can play those mini-keys (many cannot, that's ok, they know who they are) but as our discussion concludes, if you are thinking as a MIDI module, you'd be duplicating your efforts.

But I can imagine, (and CP4 Stage owners will know what I mean), after a while of playing/owning a CP4 Stage you start to really understand what you can do with that instrument and its technology. There are no velocity swaps but the tone seems to respond so well to your touch. If I'm going some where and I feel like taking something along to play/compose/doodle... my choices nowadays are few... they include today's current Portable keyboards (don't get me wrong, they're great) _ well, yeah, okay, it does have a decent electric piano sound, etc.,, or I have an option to take along the Reface CP!!! Well, now the choice, for me at least, is very easy. I'm taking that specialist! Plus the size makes it a no-brainer! I can have that CP4 sound _ after all, the object is to have an instrument that inspires your creativity.

Here is my non-technical take on the issue of a CP4 + Reface YC.

From the above discussion from Bad Mister's posts:

(1) "The technology in the Reface CP, for example, is beyond what you find in the MOXF or the Motif XF. You'll have to play it and feel the response to know what I'm talking about. Spectral Component Modeling (SCM) + AWM as found in the Yamaha CP4 Stage piano "(underlined added).

(2) "If you already have a CP4 Stage, for example, you might want to add the Reface YC; to cover the organ category. "

From my other posts, you know that I have a CP4 and have stated (and now it is confirmed) that it has the absolutely best sound of any keyboard I have ever owned, including my former XF8. It also has a keyboard that feels and plays like an acoustic piano. This technology is the future and I see the Reface YC as a technologically seductive supplement that was made for the CP4. Let me explain.

Before I read this thread, I modified preset Performance 8 as follows: Main: CFX Dark; Layer: DX7II 3; Split: 60s Organ 3 and turned on Sustain for the Split part. I left the split point at F#2. This set up is great for a syncopated blues or rock improve. The split button is easy to hit to turn on and off the higher pitch organ sound. So you have the piano full time, plus DX when wanted with or without the organ. But here is my point. When the split/organ is activated I lose the lower portion of the keyboard to it and can not play the piano/DX sounds on the lower portion of the keyboard where they sound great at the same time I play the organ sound. But with a Reface YC and its volume control pedal, I can play the piano/DX sound full time across the entire keyboard and also sweep in or out the organ/YC as desired.

I recognize that the same thing can be done with any competent aux keyboard, but this one is so compact, easy to carry, fun to tweak and play, rests perfectly against the attached slightly angled CP4 music stand- with the YC front edge resting on the lip of the music stand, its keys facing forward perpendicular to the top of the CP4- (a bonus from Yamaha when I bought the CP4) and I assume has the quality of the CP4 sounds- second to none. Plus I like the red color. Look forward to owning one.

Forgot to mention YC played via USB midi from CP4.

Earle,

I too have given this a lot of thought, and like you, I envisioned scenarios where Reface could be hugely beneficial.

I've not yet had the chance to demo in person, but of what I've heard so far, the DX, CP, and YC sound really good.

Considering the cost, adding a portable CP4 with SCM and AWM for $500 (or less) seems reasonable.

I'm starting to get the idea. That's why I appreciate the Forum and people like you and Bad Mister to learn from.

Thank you.

Thank you John for your response.

I just want to add that the beauty of the CP4 is its incredible sound and keyboard. It sounds and plays like an acoustic grand piano. Listen to both through quality speakers and it will be difficult to tell the difference.

Regarding new school technology, I have found that for me a CP4 with an iPad (with relatively inexpensive MIDI in/out and audio apps) and a small new technology mixer like a Yamaha MG10XU (cheaper no longer means inferior) and I believe a YC (if it sounds like I expect it will) is a pint-sized replacement for my old set up of multiple keyboards, rack mounts, pedals, effects, stands, etc. at a much higher sound quality and at a much lower overall cost, not to mention ease of transport and set-up.

Thanks again.

Phil talks a lot in these threats about rack instruments not working well, being hidden away, and a control surface not working in a rack based format. Seriously Phil? Have you not seen who people are using DSI, Nord and Moog synths in a rack format? These are far more Control Synthesizers than the Reface CS. Whilst it is absolutely right that Yamaha have their own take on things (they normally get things right) your justification for small format keys when but in a market context just does not hold water. I can see that are are trying hard to get people to keep an open mind about things and to think differently and this is to be admired but surely better to say that Yamaha are aiming at the portable market rather than racks don't work and/or are not desired by people?