Again, thanks for the passion - but you are preaching to the choir. Bluetooth (Wireless) would be perfect for the WX player and their tone engine - providing freedom. We are not stupid, we get it. Yikes! Doesn't take much to understand that point...

"Not better promoted"!! Really? Rob, really?
It was not upgraded because (and maybe you don't know), it was the affordable VL (the VL1, the VL1-m and the VL7 all preceded it) and the VL70-m was beneficiary of what was learned in those models. The cost-down version seemed to match what the market wanted to pay. $3000-$5000 was in the rarefied air of boutique products.

Please talk with Matt (@ Patchman Music) I'm sure he will tell you about his custom chip and his good relationship with Yamaha. I personally sent him all of my (top shelf) Voices... as I'm sure others here at YCA did... some of which appear in his sound set. Do we really now have to license them back? 🙂

It is okay to be upset and passionate about the VL70-m and WX - it really makes us smile and wonder where the rest of the horn players are at (and while I'm not a wind player) - we all learned, very early on, that the keyboard players (typical) breath curve was far too "easy" for the experienced wind player. And the typical wind players curve was way too "hard" for the average keyboard player. And when programming you have to be aware of just WHO is blowing the thing. I'm sure you realize this, but the user programming is all about customizing the controllers to YOUR playing style.

If you come to NAMM, next week, look me up - some of this discussion, about "how come" and "why" are best left for when you can do it over a refreshing beverage.

As to some of the sounds being "useless" - that is an interesting thought (from my point of view) - here's why: There are always sounds that YOU or I, as individuals, don't or will not get. This does not make them "useless". There was one called "Jet Reed Bow" - don't know if you recall it or not. You can look it up. I played with it for a while and concluded (much like you) wow, useless. Then I heard Nate (Mr. Nate Tschetter - MM for Music Production) - musing away on this sound - I was coming down the hall and thought, "Wow, listen to that, not quite a flute, not quite a string." ...but it sounded totally organic and acoustic. But not any instrument you knew. It was awesome - I peeked over his shoulder and there was "Jet Reed Bow"! It became one of my favorite sounds simply because you could play it, sound like an acoustic instrument, and yet not have people caught up in the "What's he trying to do? Replace a Saxophone?" that really is the surface level most people are on... (if you get my meaning). At the end of the day it is about the music not the technology.

(how many qualified musicians called the Saxophone "useless" when it was invented in 1876? It still is the red headed step child of wind instruments, and never did make to the 'classical orchestra')...

"Useless" is a very narrow concept and unworthy in this conversation, especially when it comes to synthesizers, or any musical sound, in general. I've learned to purge it from my vocabulary. You can say you didn't like it (fair enough), but until you broaden your view, you will always sound as bitter as that sentence ("useless and poorly organized")! Just my humble opinion - and experience. I now standby my own words (Craig Anderton, shoved a mic in my face a few NAMM shows ago and asked for some words of wisdom for his magazines keyboard readers) I wound up saying: There are no good or bad sounds when going through any synthesizer, there are only appropriate and inappropriate sounds for what you have in mind at the time.

We put it out there - you, as a user, could do far more to PROMOTE it than we ever could. (Did you?)
Did you ever try and program your own VL Voice "from scratch"? I mean "from scratch", starting with a blank Voice program in the VL Expert Editor? Just curious. If yes, then the conversation can go to another whole level, if not, well...

Finally, thanks for your thoughts and your passion. We will add it to the number of folks who understood VL (Virtual Acoustic Lead) as a concept.
🙂

The Yamaha VL series was, and still is ground breaking. I love this technology and wouldn't give up my VL1-m for anything. Many thanks to Yamaha US and their extended service network for helping me in my quest to keep my VL1-m up and running. I also still love my EX5R because I don't own an AN1X, and the EX also offers FDSP- talk about a powerful rack!

BTW, I have programmed (and still am, I know, I'm a sick puppy) VL sounds from scratch. I even had my old Powerbook 1400CS repaired so I could continue to use the expert editor running Mac OS 7.5.3 LOL

Even though there are many versions of the VL technology the seemingly most advanced is the soft synthesizer VA S-PLG100 8 PVL Plugin for the S-YXG 100 PVL. This software with modern components and se/sp3 drivers is confirmed totally capable of low latency playing down to 128 samples at 44000 hz. A purpose built win98se PC comes very close to matching the ability of 8 vl70-m units daisy chained.

This Software/Technology I think was not expanded on for a couple of reasons.

1. Modern OS does not allow direct access to the kernel. Hal etc abstraction layer is meant to keep viruses from executing code from the kernel. Which is good at fighting viruses from the internet, however bad when a program is originally coded with an open kernel with limited processing power and cpu support.

2. At the time it would have obviously hurt VL hardware unit sales if it was low latency enough which it wasn't.

3. GM was winning over XG as the standard format.

4. If you aren't really good at midi programming or can't play a breath controller or wind controller sample based synths are easier to obtain better results for the average user.

5. Sound quality can be really good on about 8 of the factory patches when played with WC or BC for the rest of the patches further complex editing is required to match playing style and become usable. It would be difficult to explain and support for the average advanced user.

6. VL Hardware pretty much 20 year run anyways.

7. If you really listen to the sounds they are less then perfect pitch and require FX sysex and many other external command just to get setup in the studio this is fine live it wouldn't work easily. This made practicing difficult and performances hard to recreate.

8. The cost was high smaller market group cost is still high on VL.

What is amazing about this synth that I think was overlooked a little is it does have the ability to be played poly-phonically. For instance you can create sections of horns woodwinds etc and use a combination of breath controller and keyboard with channel polyphonic after touch using a channel rotator and key splits to alternate or seperate mono instruments. Create sections using pan and variation effects across multiple VL voices/channels

Also the 6 six string mono VL distortion guitar should also be mentioned a highlight of the plucked string model and Yamaha effects section. This can shred pretty hard with midi guitars supporting it .

The sax, flute, clarinet, trumpet, oboe, guitar and cello are great factory patches with excellent dynamic capabilities. Other Patches excel in the Virtual Lead too many user creations to mention that are excellent playable patches.

Now if you compare these patches with modern advanced virtual lead instruments you can hear that the new stuff sounds better. Lets admit that and admit that it is a close contest. I know the VL70-m for Ipad would sell more than any other soft synth app for probably 10 more years if it was made. Seems like it is up to steinberg and what is left of the yamaha soft synth team to other formally say its done to lay it to rest or bring it back from beyond the grave in software form.

Waiting for 50,000 Vl users to unite and beg yamaha/steinberg for more VL will never happen, but if you build it more will come especially with all the advances in midi guitar could be a lot more people interested in VL than just wind controller players.

Finally the new VL70m Editor called the VL-Wizard is available. http://vl70m-editor.com/site/

I don't know if "buy and sell" is allowed or applies to this forum, but i've got a quite a mint Vl1-m for sale here: LINK. location Netherlands.

I don't know if "buy and sell" is allowed or applies to this forum, but i've got a quite mint Vl1-m for sale here: LINK. location Netherlands.

Another way to get poly-VL is to play the plg-150VL and run it through the plg-100VH card as an insertion effect, while feeding the VH card a chord via midi. 4-part harmony.

reface VL?

Been thinking about this thread (and a related one) a fair bit, over the past few weeks. Purchased a WX11 over 20 years ago. Never bought a VL70m though it was consistently suggested as the best possible complement. Tried many different approaches to using my wind controller to drive interesting sounds, over the years, but it’s only recently that my favourite solutions have become obvious. Been using a variety of iOS apps, connecting my BT-7 to a USB cable to a “camera adapter” to my iOS devices (or using a Windows or macOS computer serving as a bridge). Also been having quite a bit of fun using software on laptops and desktops. In all of these cases, the results are very satisfying, but the setup is rather cumbersome. Brought my WX11 to jam sessions with an iPad and it worked rather well as a compact system, but it still required way too much wiring.

Was thus searching for the most appropriate output for my WX11 and, after all this time, it still sounds like the VL70m might be the best option, if it can be found.

But there’s a lot Yamaha could do in terms of both a new wind controller and a new tone generator. Possibly integrating the two.

Got a rather long wishlist for each of these. Won’t bore you with the details. But, to me, the key thing is expressiveness. Things really start falling through when you think about the importance of expressiveness. Hope Yamaha gets in that scene relatively soon.

Many people care a lot about producing realistic sounds. At this point, most people who discuss realistic saxophone sounds talk about the SampleModelling plugins for Kontakt. Apart from your opinion on how these things sound, the inconvenience of having to use a laptop or desktop computer is quite significant, particularly for stage situations.
To satisfy the needs for realistic sounds, Yamaha could certainly build both a new tone generator and an app for iOS devices. Which implies that there’d be a way to connect a wind controller (and other, similar devices) to both of these. Hopefully in a wireless way. That part shouldn’t be too much of a challenge for Yamaha but it may require a bit of a rethink.

But, then, the key idea would be to allow for the transmission of more data than current implementations: more resolution in breath pressure than that given by CC#2, more sensors, and ways to add polyphony.
There’s an emerging standard for Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression supported by things like the LinnStrument, ROLI’s Seaboard and Blocks lines, and Haken Continuum. Though it might not be sufficient to cover all needs in terms of expressiveness, it certainly increases a lot of possibilities. In terms of realistic sounds, nothing screams “synthesized” more than a lack of expression. But, of course, expressiveness can allow for incredibly creative ways to use our instruments. The reason a line played by an acoustic saxophone sounds very different from most emulations of the same isn’t about the waveforms used in those emulations. It’s in the articulation and control over minute aspects of the sound.
The only line of MPE instruments which directly supports breath control is the Eigenharp one. Ordered one, which should reach me Monday. The Eigenharps do require a computer to run, which can be a significant inconvenience (as in the use of SampleModeling plugins). But some people have been able to run the necessary software on a Raspberry Pi. It’s quite likely that a manufacturer would be able to build a similar instrument to work with iOS devices (which are significantly more powerful than a Raspberry Pi) as well as a standalone tone generator à la VL70m.

The reason MPE fits physical modeling so well is rather obvious: in PM more than in almost any other method, there are complex factors continuously contributing to the overall sound. Turning a knob to modify the tongue position in a modelled clarinet sound would make little sense. And the complexity comes from the nonlinear interactions between all the factors. It’s quite hard to expect what would happen if you changed both the excitator and resonators in a Karplus-Strong model, though such a model is possibly the simplest form of Physical Modeling.

In terms of polyphony, it might sound like a strange addition to a wind instrument. Apart from mouth organs, harmonicas, pan flutes, and melodicas, there are relatively few polyphonic instruments which are blown. (Pipe organs are also aerophones but, obviously, the interaction model is completely different from that of instruments in Yamaha’s WX line.) Anyone who’s heard Michael Brecker’s work with wind controllers probably remembers the striking effect created by rotating chords played by a monophonic controller. Thanks to Robby Kilgore who set that up on an Oberheim Xpander, Brecker was able to create complex harmonies on his own, using only a wind controller.
There are other harmonic effects which can be created. For instance, it was fairly trivial for me to code a little script which creates a countermelody via countermotion with the incoming MIDI notes. And mucoder provides a free application and plugin which creates a large diversity of chords based on a few principles. As a sax player, being able to play those intricate harmonies without having to resort to a keyboard is really enabling.
Now, imagine if you can bring all the expressiveness of a wind instrument to those complex harmonies… Even with the rather limited expressiveness coming from breath and lip pressure, my current playing already makes for much better phrasing than my keyboard skills would allow.

After all, the key strength that we have as wind players is that we can really create continuous phrases instead of punching in individual notes and trying to make it sound as though they were continuous. Legato mode can bring some of that but the level of control (and, yes, expressiveness) we have through our lungs and mouths is just tremendous. Which is partly why so many synthesized sounds are so unsatisfying on a wind controller: they weren’t designed for this level of control.

So, my hope is that Yamaha will eventually release a controller which adds diverse dimensions of expressiveness to be sent to an advanced form of tone generator which can produce outstanding results from this kind of data. Polyphony would bring such a setup to the next level.

Sure, it’s a rather big challenge. But if Yamaha hasn’t calcified too much over the years, it should be able to take it up. It’s impossible to guarantee that it would take the world by storm, but there are clear indications that what is happening in the MPE scene is becoming a rather big deal. Yamaha’s longterm expertise in producing wind controllers would really bring something new to the table.
Apart from the Eigenharp. Will surely have a great experience with it but it doesn’t mean there’s no room for Yamaha products to compete with it.

Hi Nout, did you sell the VL1m? I know it was a year ago.

Has anyone at Yamaha noticed this thread is over 10,000 views now? That's a LOT of interest in VL, don't you think?