People complain when a new model comes out and it doesn't offer anything new/different.

People complain when a new low-priced model comes out and it has something the previously released flagship doesn't.

As they say, damned if you do, damned if you don't. 😉

Anyway, here's some of the other things the CK has that the YC does not:
... the Acetone and Yamaha Combo organ models from the Reface YC
... the ability to combine any three sounds (on the YC, one of the three sounds must be an organ)
... ability to save master EQ to a Live Set
... more CFX piano variations
... more sounds overall
... battery operation
... speakers
... effects for the audio input
... audio playback from USB stick
... bluetooth audio in
... {ETA} 2 split points for the internal sounds, instead of 1 (so each of the 3 sounds can have entirely different key ranges)

And here are some of the things the YC has that the CK does not:
... the better tonewheel organ emulation (instead of the one from the Reface)
... probably the better rotary effect as well, and definitely a much more adjustable one
... more different piano models (C7, Nashville C3)
... way more different Rhodes models
... metal build
... internal power supply
... endless encoders with LEDs so controls indicate (and are immediately properly adjustable from) their current positions
... higher quality actions
... FM sound generation for the FM sounds, plus ability to create your own "FM organ" synth sounds
... a 73-key version
... balanced outs (on 73 and 88)
... full size drawbars, with multi-manual LED indicators
... 4 amp simulations (in addition to rotary)
... ability to put up to 3 insert effects in series instead of 2

It's new, I may not have every detail right there, and I'm sure I've missed things, but I think that's probably pretty close to a list of the major feature differences. Of course, there are also operational/design differences, it has a very different layout.

As a general performance board, there's a lot to like about the CK. The YC is definitely stronger for organ and Rhodes, and comes in a more premium package.

It's just odd that Yamaha makes the YC to feature the organ and yet the organ on the YC, although probably better, doesn't actually "flagship" all of their available organs. Seems like by default or by definition that's what YC should do. That's it's speciality or MO. I realize the "cheaper" boards use lesser technology but it's still a mystery nevertheless. How long has it been out and it still can't do a pipe organ or several of them or others that you listed? Sometimes Yamaha is just dumb. I'm not going to go buy one so I can acquire several more features and pipes but at least keep the "organ board" the flagship organ board. I know it's 100% likely to be AWM2 sample switching technology but still they can play it while the YC guy can not. Obviously the "more sounds" was something I questioned and was informed that for stage boards nobody wanted more sounds and yet they have added more sounds to the CK. Proves that people do want more sounds although I have no idea how many more it has.

[quotePost id=120794]It's just odd that Yamaha makes the YC to feature the organ and yet the organ on the YC, although probably better, doesn't actually "flagship" all of their available organs. [/quotePost]
Yes, the YC definitely has the better tonewheel organ emulation, but the addition of the pipes here is nice, particularly for potential church customers.

The Acetone and Yamaha Combo emulation probably came along for the ride this time, because the Reface YC had them, and they repurposed that organ engine for the CK. Having nothing to do with the CK, that's been the case from the start, that the lowly Reface YC had those particular organ emulations that were not implemented in the higher end YC models. I guess they thought there just wasn't enough demand to make it worth creating a new implementation of those organ models. And they were probably right, because whether you look here or on ideascale, while people have made many suggestions for ways the YC could be improved, there's been no clamor to add Acetone and Yamaha Combo models to it.

[quotePost id=120794]Obviously the "more sounds" was something I questioned and was informed that for stage boards nobody wanted more sounds and yet they have added more sounds to the CK. Proves that people do want more sounds although I have no idea how many more it has. [/quotePost]
Were you really told that nobody wants more sounds? Unlike those organ requests I just mentioned, I've actually seen numerous requests for more sounds, though usually something specific as opposed to just a generic "more sounds."

But as for how many, the CK has 363, the YC has 148. That said, based on the current YC design, I don't think I would want 363 in it. The CK has 9 direct sound category select buttons (plus organ), the YC only has 4 (piano, EP, synth, others). Splitting so many sounds into so few categories would actually impede usability, since the scrolling lists would get so long, making it take more time and effort to get to a sound. (There is a sub-category shortcut, which helps, but it's kind of awkward.) I mentioned that there are operational/design differences... That bank of direct-select category buttons on the CK is one of the areas where I think the new approach is a nice improvement.

Proves that people do want more sounds although I have no idea how many more it has.

Whose fault is that? That info is readily available on Yamaha's web site on their FAQ pages.
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/stagekeyboards/yc/faq.html

What kind of sounds are built in?

As of OS v1.2, there are 9 types of organs using the new VCM organ and FM sound sources, various pianos and electric pianos, strings, synth sounds, etc. A total of 152 tones and 104 live set sounds combining these tones are built in. Other sounds may be added through firmware updates.

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/stagekeyboards/ck/faq.html

What kinds of sounds are included?

Both CK61 and CK88 come with 363 Voices, which include various acoustic pianos, electronic pianos, organs, strings, synths, and more, as well as 80 Live Set sounds which combine several of these Voices.

Just subtract the two numbers and you'll have the 'how many more' answer.

Once the Data List is published you can see what sounds it has.

[quotePost id=120796]Once the Data List is published you can see what sounds it has.
[/quotePost]
It's already available. It's not a separate data list, it's part of the owner's manual.

I once proposed mounted speakers add-on to the YC and a Yamaha guy (not official) stated that Yamaha's perspective on built-in speakers was that it considers that as a novelty or non-professional level board. Yet Yamaha added speakers not sure where they are though, I can't see them but haven't searched either. Don't built-in speakers typically suck in general and/or go bad eventually? I wonder how powerful they actually are. This board is obviously a trickle down high level portable toy. If it sounds better than my YC I'll be pissed. Still please explain the rational or theory why a pro board should only have 150 sounds while the lesser boards have double? That is the opposite of rational thought. The higher level board should have double over the lesser board. At the very least the voices should be twice as detailed if you are going to half the quantity but even so it makes no sense whatsoever in general. So you're buying a Corvette and some guy in a Cavalier pulls up next to you and he has double the cylinders. You'd be pissed. Yamaha does this reverse logic I assume to make the lesser guy in the Cavalier feel like he's got more, which he sort of does. It's annoying to me. The reason you save longer and spend more is, wait for it.....to dominate. However we all know some of the "filler" voices are often pretty silly space noises or useless for almost anything, that type voice I'm not talking about. Thus far YC has not had a substantial voice expansion meaning something more than a few pianos and EPs. I assume that's never going to happen. We'll see. I really wanted the super high quality YC to be open ended rather than disposable.

I once proposed mounted speakers add-on to the YC and a Yamaha guy (not official) stated that Yamaha's perspective on built-in speakers was that it considers that as a novelty or non-professional level board.

The above mentions both 'mounted speakers' and 'built-in' speakers. They aren't the same thing. If they are 'mounted' then they are NOT 'built-in'.

So what do you see as the difference between an external speaker 'add-on' and the external monitors that you use with the YC?

Don't built-in speakers typically suck in general

Compared to what? Sure if you you compare them to larger, better quality and more expensive external monitors.

and/or go bad eventually?

Everything boes bad eventually so I'm not sure what you mean by this.

The larger the speakers the heavier and more expensive they are. For small, portable devices the goal is to provide the best quality at the lowest weight and cost.

You don't have to use the internal speakers. The CKs allow you to use the same external monitors that you can use with the YC.

I wonder how powerful they actually are.

Then I suggest you find a local retailer that has one on display and try it out.

Most retailers also offer a short-term return policy that lets you purchase one, try it and return it for a full refund if you want.

This board is obviously a trickle down high level portable toy.

Trickle down - yes. Toy - no. It is targeted for users that don't need the higher quality and price of other instruments. It is more of an entry-level product that lets users get familiar with Yamaha's offerings.

It is also a great product/gift for people that want to learn piano/keyboard.

If it sounds better than my YC I'll be pissed.

Sorry - I don't understand that attitude.

Progress means being able to offer better products at a better price with each generation.

It's that 'trickle down' paradigm you mentioned. The more complicated technology is first offered at the higher price tiers and, as time matures, it trickles down to the lower priced products.

So the lower priced products typically get better by absorbing the technology of the higher priced products. That brings them closer and closer to the higher level.

But the higher priced products only get better when new, or better, technology is added to them. That is the stuff that is expensive to develop, test and refine so naturally it gets added to the higher priced products first.

It isn't any different for musical instruments than it is for refrigerators, stoves, air conditioners or any other consumer appliance.

Try one and then post and let us know what you find.

I suspect that Yamaha tends to think in terms of niches, when it comes to anything electronic and, therefore, aren't concerned with the few rational and reasoning consumers that might see some disparities in supposed range hierarchies, because the vast majority of their targeted customers aren't making choices with their head - they're either using emotional "reasoning" or compelled to buy for other "reasons", within the tight confines of each supposed niche.

If asked, I'd hazard a guess that Yamaha still can't accurately explain why the DX-7 was so successful, nor why the CS-80 is still revered, and are terrified of the emerging Chinese manufacturers figuring out some branding and distribution.

[quotePost id=120804]
Progress means being able to offer better products at a better price with each generation.
[/quotePost]

Silly me. I thought it was about being increasingly mandated to comply and ever more instantly distrusted by institutions.

[quotePost id=120803]I once proposed mounted speakers add-on to the YC and a Yamaha guy (not official) stated that Yamaha's perspective on built-in speakers was that it considers that as a novelty or non-professional level board. Yet Yamaha added speakers [/quotePost]
I guess not everyone at Yamaha has the same opinion as everyone else. 🙂 Really, I think also that the market shifts, the competitive situation shifts. Yamaha may have noticed people happily buying boards like the Roland RD-88 and Korg SV-2S.

[quotePost id=120803]If it sounds better than my YC I'll be pissed. [/quotePost]
Well, its tonewheel organ definitely doesn't sound as good as the YC. It's also weaker in the piano and rhodes departments, at least in having fewer different pianos/rhodes models in them. But someday, there will be something better than the YC, so don't worry, you can be pissed then. 😉

[quotePost id=120803]The higher level board should have double over the lesser board. At the very least the voices should be twice as detailed if you are going to half the quantity but even so it makes no sense whatsoever in general. So you're buying a Corvette and some guy in a Cavalier pulls up next to you and he has double the cylinders. You'd be pissed. [/quotePost]

A Chevy van has more seats than a Corvette, yet the Corvette is pricier, go figure. It's a matter of what it is you're assigning value too. There are ways the van is better than the corvette, there are ways the corvette is better than the van. There are ways the CK is better than the YC, there are ways the YC is better than the CK. Number of sounds is not the sole criteria differentiating boards. I can list plenty of boards that have had far fewer sounds than some much lower priced boards from the same company. Yamaha CP1, Kawai MP10/MP11, Korg SV1/SV2, Roland V-Piano, Hammond XK5, quickly come to mind.

[quotePost id=120804]

If it sounds better than my YC I'll be pissed.

Sorry - I don't understand that attitude.

Progress means being able to offer better products at a better price with each generation.

It's that 'trickle down' paradigm you mentioned. The more complicated technology is first offered at the higher price tiers and, as time matures, it trickles down to the lower priced products.

So the lower priced products typically get better by absorbing the technology of the higher priced products. That brings them closer and closer to the higher level.[/quotePost]
Indeed.

The YC61 is 3 years old.

Wait 3 years, you'll get a faster computer for less money than you'll pay for a high end computer today. It may even have some new stuff that your 3 year old computer didn't have. But if it's cheaper, it will probably also lag today's high end computer in some other way. Yup, that's the way tech progress tends to go.

Progress happens. Don't be pissed. You have a great board. Make some great music with it. 🙂

Lots of people will continue to prefer the YC, I'm sure. if you end up preferring the CK, sell your YC and buy a CK, and the loss is what it cost you to have and enjoy a YC when it was the best tool for you.

Glad that got everyone talking and thinking. If the "progress" theory holds up the new Montage will be $2,000 and three times better than the Fantom. The Montage is ancient in comparison to YC. It will likely be $4,000 to $5,000 and only 1.5 times as good as current Montage with a few surprises perhaps. Will it be Montage EX or a totally different synth? Even CP and Tyros technology is ancient and Montage can't do what they can do and probably still won't be able to. There's just never enough power under the hood no matter what they design. We know they are all disposable so that's why. The progress you mention is really extremely slow and limited but just adding more sounds isn't a big deal unless you didn't provide adequate internal memory or interfacing. Typically that new wrapper is bright and shiny and enticing but it's basically same ole sample switching AWMII. Remember the good ole days when Yamaha was revolutionary and yes even computers have slowed way, way down barely any better than 5 years ago. It typically follows a trend of nothing new only more of it and maybe a little faster. What if Montage EX is only double what Montage is now? Would anyone be that excited about it? I'm curious whether it's a Montage or completely different. YC was on the right track but it does need to be doubled like (2) organs at once and (4) other voices and synth/program capabilities and many more voices. Custom voice creation like SKpro would be fantastic. There's not much reason to buy two similar Yamaha boards because they all have the same voices essentially. I try to buy the flagship hoping I will have all the voices and yet they still manage to only give the flagship half as much. I think the designers don't think like someone mentioned, it's just about volume of new bright and shiny trickle down units but that's business. My mistake was assuming they are thinking. I will say be warned of Yamaha marketing. I bought a CP thinking dang so many more voices and it wasn't a very good board in comparison and I returned it. This might also have that super cheap feel because, well, the price is pretty low and that's the listed price. Wait a year and they will be giving them away. Has anyone touched one yet? What I fear the most with Montage 2.0 is that it will take most of us 5 years to figure out how to use it. That's why I've turned to stage boards. I'm not sure if it's a trend or just me but I prefer one knob one function (with toggle sharing or shifting) because programming is not what music people like to do. It's a big waste of time and never has been made easy. Fantom was pretty easy. Programmers shouldn't design digital instruments, musicians should.

[quotePost id=120808]YC was on the right track but it does need to be doubled like (2) organs at once and (4) other voices and synth/program capabilities and many more voices.[/quotePost]
Again, though, you're focusing on quantity here. And that may well be the right metric for you, but it may not be the right metric for everyone. In the "middle" price range, if you want quantity of sounds and tons of flexibility you can get a MODX+. If you want a very immediate, hands-on interface, you can get a CK. If you want that kind of operation with pro build quality (metal chassis, internal power supply, maybe balanced outs), you can get a CP/YC. If you want drawbar organ, you can get a CK for a basic one, or a YC for a better one. And so on. Different sound sets, different feature sets, for customers with different priorities. And yeah, sometimes things don't perfectly "sync up" in a feature chart the way you might expect, because they weren't all designed on the same day, some were designed years earlier or later than others, and even by probably different design teams.

[quotePost id=120808]I try to buy the flagship hoping I will have all the voices and yet they still manage to only give the flagship half as much. [/quotePost]
I don't know about "half" (I guess you're talking about YC/CK in particular) but I do share some of your frustration that, even if you're willing to spend the money, there's no board that will give you all their best sounds. Some YC sounds beat some Montage sounds. Some MODX sounds beat some Genos sounds. C'est la vie.

(As for YC/CK, as I said, while some more voices in YC could be nice, I don't think I'd want it to have twice as many, because its physical interface does not lend itself to easily accessing hundreds of sounds. Lots more sounds could actually be an operational impediment.)

Glad that got everyone talking and thinking.

Folks here are always willing to try to help people with their questions.

Unfortunately, nothing else in your latest reply is relevant to the question/issue in this thread nor does any of it pose any new questions. If you have other questions please create a new thread and ask them.

Any commentary about Yamaha's product line should be directed to Yamaha. There is a link at the bottom of the page provided for that purpose.

If you are SERIOUS about wanting your ideas and suggestions considered then post them to the IdeaScale web page Yamaha provides just for that purpose and/or send them to Yamaha.

Have you done either of those things? If so please provide the IdeaScale link to your posts. I would be interesting in reading them.

It's obvious from the rest of your last reply that you have a high level of confusion about the various products. That is certainly something that people here can help with.

Will it be Montage EX or a totally different synth? Even CP and Tyros technology is ancient and Montage can't do what they can do and probably still won't be able to.

You are correct - and the main reason each of those 'can not do' and 'will not be able to do' what the others can is because that are DIFFERENT products that target a DIFFERENT user.

One is an Arranger, one a stage piano, and one a synthesizer. They were intentionally designed to do different things and serve different purposes.

Your statement above purporting to compare them on an equal basis indicates just how confused you are about the various products.

There is nothing wrong with that. We can help you reduce, and even overcome, that confusion but it will take a lot of effort on your part.

First - read the overviews for each of the products. Each of these can be EASILY found using the simple search strings: 'yamaha montage', 'yamaha cp' and 'yamaha tyros'.

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/synthesizers/montage/index.html
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/stagekeyboards/cp_series/index.html
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/arranger_workstations/tyros5/index.html

Did you notice that for Montage it describes the product as 'synthesizer'?
And for CP it describes it as 'Stage Piano'.
And Tyros as 'Arranger/Wordstation'.

Once you have read that basic info create a new thread and ask any questions you may have.

I've actually purchased them all beginning with the DX100 to SY77 to SY99 and also rebuilt them all. Used to have every part and once probably had 50 SY synths in my bedroom. Or as many AN1x and bought most of them including owning every expansion pack to all the arrangers beginning with Tyros to Genos so I know a little. Repaired about 100 of those vintage RS7000s. Bought them all with my own money, usually to repair them and update the OS and sell them. I have the CP1 and YC73 sitting here. Sold everything else at some point. I'm in my 50s and bought that SY77 and SY99 when I was in my early 20s working at Waffle House while in college to become an engineer. Now own my own engineering company and yet I still wasn't smart enough to use the Montage. Waffle House taught me to get a degree and fast. I'm mostly a trumpet player designed a mouthpiece to reach the highest notes possible which I do daily to stay in shape. I came into Yamaha just after the DX/FM craze. DX100 was my first and that dang Yamaha sequencer metal box to program it with. Nothing Yamaha made was ever easy to use except the stage stuff for dummies like me. I'm literally sitting here with my audiofile gear listening to synth music from the 80s that we don't hear anymore. It's a lost art unfortunately.