May not match all performances or the latest firmware, but with my presets tried thus far they did not have zone control set to ON by default so setting the [UTILITY] Zone master to ON would not transmit MIDI for me until I edited the preset parts to turn on zone control. This sounds like preferred behavior for your usage. Hopefully what I saw applies to your firmware and target presets.

There are multiple ways to get this result, but think this one has the chance of being most transparent.

Strange, what you describe when setting zone master to on was also what I thought would happen.

I probably need to retest this in a nice and quiet surrounding after the gig, for some reason I needed to activate the zone control for each sound and tell it not to transmit too get it to stop....

.

Is there a global function to turn off the midi out for the internal sounds? i.e. so I don't need to reprogram every single layer of each and every program to not send midi.

Your assessment is correct, the Zone Master function will require you option or out for each Performance you intend to use.

If you wish to "turn off the midi out" you can:
Set the MIDI I/O mode = USB
UTILITY > "Settings" > "MIDI I/O"
Set the MIDI I/O = USB

if you are on stage and haven't pre set your Zone Master functions, you can navigate to and from this above screen to toggle between "MIDI" when you wish to transmit OUT, and "USB" when you want the Montage alone. (This will work when no computer is attached to the Montage via USB).

Since the last screen visited in Utility will return, the next time you need to go to that screen simply press [UTILITY] or touch the gear icon in the upper right corner of the screen.
Press [EXIT] or [PERFORMANCE (Home)] to return to your normal view.

Thansk for the workaround,

it is a bit to awkward solution for tonights gig since I have quite a few sound changes. Skip midi this time around!

Does this also mean i end up with a second copy of every internal sound I intend to use when the Montage is a midi controller?

Does this also mean i end up with a second copy of every internal sound I intend to use when the Montage is a midi controller?

When you first turn on the Montage there are 1920 Performances in the Preset Bank. There are 0/640 in the User Bank. It's a blank slate.

You are the User, when you create your first Performance Part, be it an internal Montage Part or external MIDI device, you must [STORE] your new Performance to slot #1 of your empty User Bank. Each Performance can contain 16 Parts. Each Performance you edit or customize will be stored in the next higher numbered location.

It's not a "second copy", really, because it has your customizations. If you are worried about running out of slots to store stuff, stop. There's plenty of room. 640 Perfirmances in User, 640 Performances in each Library, 8 User Libraries. Plus unlimited number of User banks can be backed up and loaded in from a USB storage device. Or bulked in via MIDI from your computer or laptop.

So if you think of the Presets as what you use to build your own versions, you'd be correct. Think of them as 1920 permanent "starting" places. You recall a piano and you Add (+) a bass Part, if you wish to keep that, press [STORE] it goes to your User bank.

Making a Master keyboard setup is very much like that external device is treated as a Part, external, but it occupies a Part in a similar way an internal sound does. Once you make a setup, naturally you want to Store it so you can recall it when you need it.

This allows you to setup Splits, customize what controllers are going to do internally versus externally, etc. etc. You can set Parts and Performances that only control the external devices.

Internal, external Zones, any combination of both totaling 8.

Ok, so if I get the creative idea on stage to use a fantastic sound made by yamaha while using the Montage as a master controller via midi I will have to be worried that the Montage will trigger any possible sound in my midi rig? Not terribly creative or flexible to have to prepare everything in advance, a recommendation to you guys is to turn off the midi out for all internal sounds when using the Montage as a controller(or have this as a more general parameter which could be selected).

For me music is about creation in the moment, not bloody menu diving stopping the flow...

Ok. Bad Mr, I started transferring the sounds setting the midi out so the internal sounds could be used while using the Montage as a master keyboard.

Started with some simple clavinet, then wen't over to seattle stricng. In this patch I need to set zone settings 7 times!! to avoid problems with midi being sent to a strange channel.

Say I wan't to use 100 internal sounds from the montage library of sounds and say that they have a mean of three layers. That would mean I have to select Zones 300 times !!!!!!!!! Would I like to transform the full library it would be almost 5600 layers to select zone on. Toyota invented lean six sigma, Yamaha definitely didn't implement these kind of thoughts into the montage.....

Using MIDI-Ox as my target MIDI device may have resulted in the "backwards" results. I have since found that MIDI-Ox can get confused and requires a restart to see incoming MIDI. So perhaps there was actually MIDI activity when my setup was reporting there was none - and it was possibly a restart (and not turning zone for the part from OFF to ON) that caused the MIDI in activity to start displaying.

I am now restarting MIDI-Ox more often to be sure it is showing valid data and do match your results: by default all the performances will send MIDI data unless a more global "switch" is used. So there does not seem to be a simple way to get what you're after.

It may be slightly easier if the MIDI output could be saved to a scene - then you could, as recommended, switch the MIDI "train tracks" to output to a port which is not connected to your downstream devices. Doing this while also being able to associate the setting to a given performance. This does not help necessarily to talk about virtual settings that do not exist - the target audience is more towards Yamaha.

Zone control assumes you generally want to send MIDI data out the port.

Master Zone Off = Send MIDI using part # as midi channel
Master Zone ON:
Part Zone Off = Send MIDI using part # as midi channel (uses the "Master Zone Off" policy for this part)
Part Zone On = Send MIDI using midi channel as assigned (1-16, or off).

There does not appear to be a performance-level way of turning MIDI off, so individual part settings are necessary. Using a global MIDI "off" for every performance, you can halfway get there - but need to switch this back for your performances that control external MIDI devices.

Lots of room to add control and flexibility here - and some competing expectations which means probably 3-4 new settings (Global vs. Performance level vs. Part level) would be necessary to cover the bases.

Maybe there's a MIDI command that can change the part-level zone on, and also ensure the MIDI transmit ch = off (which I believe is the default). Then possibly a laptop solution could be added to look for the bank/program changes and fiddle with the zone settings for you so programming them is not necessary. That's the "cheap" route assuming you have a laptop already and a MIDI-to-USB cable since you'll want MIDI to be set to std. MIDI and not want to be switching that around to target your laptop. It'd be some work. The MIDI implementation chart in the Data List shows parameter change:

Addr 0x31/0x50-0x5F(50=part 1 .. 5F=part 16)/0x00/data=0x00 for OFF or 0x01 for ON

So a SysEx can be constructed.

Format:
0xF0 (MIDI spec SysEx start) 0x43 (Yamaha Corporation MIDI ID Number) 0x1n (n=device number 0x0-0xF, assuming n=0) 0x7F (group ID high) 0x1C (group ID low) 0x02 (model ID) 0x[AddrH] 0x[AddrM] 0x[AddrL] 0x[Data1] ...0x[DataLast] 0xF7 (MIDI spec end of SysEx aka EOX)

Result:

0xF0 0x43 0x10 0x7F 0x1C 0x02 0x31 0x50 0x00 0x01 0xF7
0xF0 0x43 0x10 0x7F 0x1C 0x02 0x31 0x51 0x00 0x01 0xF7
0xF0 0x43 0x10 0x7F 0x1C 0x02 0x31 0x52 0x00 0x01 0xF7
0xF0 0x43 0x10 0x7F 0x1C 0x02 0x31 0x53 0x00 0x01 0xF7
0xF0 0x43 0x10 0x7F 0x1C 0x02 0x31 0x54 0x00 0x01 0xF7
0xF0 0x43 0x10 0x7F 0x1C 0x02 0x31 0x55 0x00 0x01 0xF7
0xF0 0x43 0x10 0x7F 0x1C 0x02 0x31 0x56 0x00 0x01 0xF7
0xF0 0x43 0x10 0x7F 0x1C 0x02 0x31 0x57 0x00 0x01 0xF7

= Turn (Part level) Zone for Parts 1-8 to ON.

Same thing can be done for the zone channel - just showing the 1st part (only necessary if MIDI channel is not default to OFF - data list shows it should default to OFF):

0xF0 0x43 0x10 0x7F 0x1C 0x02 0x31 0x50 0x01 0x00 0xF7

Edit / Addition:

Occasional issues aside (it's free software - so it is expected. Something with a cost that serves a similar function would be appropriate for the gig) - MIDI-Ox does allow to respond to program change events and send any number of SysEx commands. I've done it and it seems to be working. Here, however, I do run into another limitation. Previously I noticed that program change information was only set if 1) Zone Master is on, 2) Part Zone is ON, and 3) Pgm Change associated at part-level is turned on (which is default).

The problem is that to use this fix is that it depends on pgm change to happen when you change performances - which doesn't work unless you edit all the parts of all of the performances.

What this leaves you with is using an external device (laptop) to set your performance # and also send the SysEx commands to fix zone. Which is not horrible - but a little less transparent than I would have hoped.

Maybe there's a way to globally force bank/pgm change MIDI output to ON without having to do this as the part level. But what I have found thus far is that they share a common limitation in configuration.

Fredrik wrote:

Ok. Bad Mr, I started transferring the sounds setting the midi out so the internal sounds could be used while using the Montage as a master keyboard.

Started with some simple clavinet, then wen't over to seattle stricng. In this patch I need to set zone settings 7 times!! to avoid problems with midi being sent to a strange channel.

Say I wan't to use 100 internal sounds from the montage library of sounds and say that they have a mean of three layers. That would mean I have to select Zones 300 times !!!!!!!!! Would I like to transform the full library it would be almost 5600 layers to select zone on. Toyota invented lean six sigma, Yamaha definitely didn't implement these kind of thoughts into the montage.....

I don't follow your thinking, because it is unclear exactly what you need to do. If you are creating 100 setups that include both Montage and your external device(s), it naturally follows that you would need to setup 100 setups. How many layers this is or button pushes it takes is really premature in this discussion. I don't think it is any where's near that (I think you are working too hard).

What you're describing doing just doesn't sound right. I'm trying to see/understand what you are missing (why you've concluded that this is what you must do).

The Montage can transmit on 8 MIDI channels simultaneously.
It can control as many as 8 Parts simultaneously. Those under KBD CTRL
Those Parts can be internal, external or a combination of both; A total of 8 Parts can be under KBD CTRL simultaneously.

I think if you think this through, setting things up is not as difficult as you are making it.
It is clear, however, you have not yet figured out how to best utilize the Zone Master setup in your situation. Which is fine, and why you're here /and why we're here.

Yes, it is different. Hopefully, you're open enough to take another look at a workflow after considering the following discussion and example.

Sorry, I'm at a disadvantage because I don't know the Midi implementation of the devices you are attempting to include in your Montage Performance setup. But I still hope this helps. It will have to be fairly generic but I hope it will perhaps point you in the right direction.

Montage Zone Master Concept
It is designed so an external MIDI device can be better integrated into your Montage Performance and work with it. This includes feeding the audio output of the external device into the A/D Input of the Montage, where it can become a modulation source within the Motion Control engine. You may not be doing this kind of setup (quite yet), so we will not go down that particular rabbit hole, just yet. Perhaps, you are looking at the basic Zone Settings completely differently with other goals in mind. You'll need to let us know exact your requirements.

If you are not quite here yet, and are trying/struggling to figure a way to make a traditional MIDI OUT to MIDI IN setup, we can recommend, first, you pick a MIDI channel on which you are going to control/communicate to these external devices. Each external slave MIDI device should be set its own exclusive channel, or set of channels.

Because you can (and will want to) setup Performances that are exclusively Montage, some that are exclusively external device(s), and others that might be a combination of both, you'll find the Zone Master setup allows for all of these contingencies.

Most external MIDI devices can be set to occupy a single channel. For example, it is recommended you set your receiving devices to any channels between 9 and 16. This way you can completely avoid any possibility of transmitting to them at all, by accident, from a Factory Preset. You will find that the Zone Master function will work best for folks who plan ahead. For they will be able to assign control over the external device and truly integrate it into the Montage experience.

If your external devices are addressed on a channel (or channels) separate from those the Montage is likely to use, you will remove all opportunity for unwanted triggering of your external devices. It is that simple. You will be able to move freely on your Montage... through any and all of the Factory Presets, without any random triggering of your external devices. I can tell you that the maximum number of channels ever transmitted from one of the 1920 Factory Performances is 8.

While you can transmit both internally and externally from a single Zone, don't. Use a separate PART for each external device.
No Zone is necessary to play internal Parts. ( We'll come back to this but it maybe what you are missing).

If you have figured, you need to setup every Part of every Performance, although you could... I'd have to ask you why? It is not at all necessary.

Questions concerning your setup:
Can you set the receive channel on your external devices?
If yes, do it so that you can determine when they are triggered and not triggered. Any channels 9-16.
If no, let us know. If your MIDI device cannot be set to a channel between 9-16, let us know, there are solutions available (No need to go down that road if it isn't necessary).

I think when you see how this really works you may be surprised (hopefully pleasantly).

BACKGROUND
The Montage has as many as 8 Parts, it has as many as 8 Arpeggiators, simultaneously; some how once you recognize that these 8 Parts can be output on 8 separate channels - and this is what's new for many seasoned MIDI users - well, of course a Part occupies a MIDI channel. Drums need their own MIDI channel separate from the piano. The guitar needs to separate from the organ, the brass from the strings. Of course, they are on separate channels. It is fundamental to how Montage works. It's fundamental to how multi Part playing works on Montage.

Let's build a simple, internal/external combination so you get an idea of how this can be used:
I'm controlling an external devices, on MIDI channel 16.

I want to create an internal/external split with the "CFX + FM EP" in my right hand; this is a 5-Part Montage Performance. I can, on the HOME screen, carefully set Low Limit of the Parts where "C-2" is the lowest note to C3. (Parts 1, 2, 4 and 5)
I can ADD(+) a sixth Part ("INIT Normal AWM2"); Drop into Edit on this Part 6; turn its Zone Master ON, set its INT SW = OFF (so it only transmits OUT via MIDI) Set the TRANSMIT CH = 16
Note Limit the Zone Setting in Part 6 to make it respond C-2 thru B2.

This setup has the Montage transmitting to 6 Parts, five of them internally (no Zone necessary to transmit internally), and one, using a single Zone setup, for the external.

I do not have to activate or do any programming to Parts 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5's Zone Settings. Not a thing. I only need to program one Zone Setting screen, the one in Part 6, the one I've designated as for external transmit.

What you may be missing:
>You do not have to address the internal Montage via a Zone. When you activate a Part's Zone Switch, you choose to use this setup exclusively OUT via MIDI by setting the "INT SW" to OFF. Recommended. It is not necessary to use a Zone to play the Montages own sounds, this Switch allows you to opt out on triggering internally, even when KBD CTRL is ON for this Part.

It basically how you define this Part to control the external device exclusively, at the same time other Parts are played internally.

>The KBD CTRL icon indicates the number of Parts you are controlling via the keys, simultaneously.
>An occupied slot that does not have the KBD CTRL icon illuminated, must be selected directly using [PART SELECT x], in order to be active and sound from the keys. Selecting it directly will allow you to play just the internal and/or external sound assigned to that Part.
>There are 16 Parts in a Performance. Selecting them directly (individually) means you are transmitting according to its Part settings. Any of the 16 Parts can transmit OUT on any channel 1-16.

My read was that transmitting on MIDI Ch 1-8 (or 1-x depending on the preset's part count) was not desirable - so a way to turn off MIDI output (any channel = MIDI CH Off for zone control on) was what Fredrick was after while still retaining having MIDI turned ON for external devices (different set of performances) without too much fiddling in the gig to make one set of performances work vs. another.

The workaround to make your target external MIDI devices receive on channels 9-16 works out since the preset performances do not use 9-16 except for the GM Init performance (I'm assuming that's it - the datalist doesn't show part count - and just spot checked).

One possible downside to having MIDI traffic (ch 1-8) that your device ignores is if you have older equipment with small MIDI buffers and those buffers are still implemented to read ALL data - even that not directed toward the device. Maybe the note on/off information for the parts 1-8 will overflow the buffer unless you shut Ch 1-8 outputs off. Maybe there's some other reason someone would prefer a "clean" MIDI bus with only his/her target MIDI channels with any data showing up. Or maybe Fredrick is fine with all this, MIDI Ch. 9-16 is available for the target device(s) and problem solved.

Certainly the other possibility is that the end device is stuck at channel 1 (worst case - conflicts with every performance) which influences some "rearranging".

Thanks both,

exactly this Jason

"My read was that transmitting on MIDI Ch 1-8 (or 1-x depending on the preset's part count) was not desirable - so a way to turn off MIDI output (any channel = MIDI CH Off for zone control on) was what Fredrick was after while still retaining having MIDI turned ON for external devices (different set of performances) without too much fiddling in the gig to make one set of performances work vs. another."

Using only channel 9-16 works, since Clavias Nord Stage flexible midi implementation allows me to set a global channel for e.g. organ and pianos on panel B I can use channel 9 for both of these, thus avoiding having to rewrite all programs opting out on keyzones for all layers for internal programs.

A bit quirky of the Yamaha to lock up the first 8 channels of midi though, a global function would be much welcome.

I thought I had another solution late last night to my problem last night, i.e. using the midi i/o single mode instead of multi setting the midichannel to 16. This worked for most of the sounds, most of the times. Quite oddly in some cases when selecting a patch(appeared randomly) e.g. flute patches started to send on midichannel 1 and/or 2 not sure which. The odd thing was it didn't happen every time. Seemed to be dependent of which patch I used before.

I've also tried the analog in on the montage for mixing in my nord stage at a rehearsal, unfortunately I ended up with problems with gainstaging. Realise this could be sorted in the mixing section. Quite good actually being able to ditch the small submixer and use the Montage instead.

Using only channel 9-16 works, since Clavias Nord Stage flexible midi implementation allows me to set a global channel for e.g. organ and pianos on panel B I can use channel 9 for both of these, thus avoiding having to rewrite all programs opting out on keyzones for all layers for internal programs.

Easy as pie. No more triggering by accident, solved!

A bit quirky of the Yamaha to lock up the first 8 channels of midi though, a global function would be much welcome.

"Quirky", not really, just different. Perhaps the first keyboard you have owned that transmits on more than one channel simultaneously, is all. If you ask yourself, have I ever owned a keyboard that in its normal operation can transmit on as many as eight channels simultaneously? You will probably answer, no. (Arrangers like Yamaha's Tyros transmit on all 16 channels via keyboard control in its typical/normal use case - it reserves all 16 channels for Tyros Parts)!

If you fail to accept that what's new (and quirky) about Montage, is when playing multiple Parts becomes confusing;
Each Part with 16 Source/Destination Controller Sets. In Montage simple messages that address all Parts together become not so very useful, you want to maintain individual control of the Parts... Across multiple channels. Sending, for example cc007 would cause every Part to the same volume - not necessarily a good thing. You might want that, but you don't want to be limited to just that!

The Super Knob is called "super" because it provides a way to address the volume of the Drum Part (turning it up) while not affecting the bass, guitar, and flute, yet in the same gesture turns the volume of the strings down a little bit, and the brass by a lot, etc. you can scale the result of your control movement -automating the movement. Quirky, you bet!

Basically, you can address multiple Parts, individually, as if you were playing multiple synthesizers each with their own set of knobs and parameters. And you can do it with a single gesture, without removing your hands from the keyboard. Quirky, yes! Of course, this is done with separate channels. it's BIGGER Midi than you're used to.

If you want to work "traditional", that is without all of these extras, you can. And the solution is just as simple. So simple in fact, I'm going to recommend it as the place to begin: Use a SINGLE Part Montage contribution. This matches the SINGLE part you are contributing from your external devices. Once you are comfortable with one-keyboard delivering one sound, then slowly move into the Multiple Part internals.

It would be equal footing with your external devices contribution, perhaps, a single Part. Think of each Part slot 1-8 as a separate synth you are controlling. Any combination of 8, totally a maximum of 8. If you have 2 external devices, the Montage can contribute from 1 to 6 Parts.

But to start out: Use Part 1 only for the Montage internal. Use slot 2 to setup a Part for your external device. (In fact, it might be a good exercise for understanding just want you're dealing with when you opt to ask the Montage to do multi Parts)

It's not hype, it's a statement of fact: each Montage Part is the equivalent of a Motif XF Voice. A complete synth sound, with its own 8 Elements, its own two Insert Effects, its own 16 Source/Destination Controller matrix, its own outputs, etc., etc,.

Create a Performsnce where the Montage internal occupies Part 1, your external device occupies Part 2 (Zone On, INT SW = OFF)
Start with just that until you'll get comfortable with what's going on.

I thought I had another solution late last night to my problem last night, i.e. using the midi i/o single mode instead of multi setting the midichannel to 16.

No, that will not work. Not the function of the MIDI I/O mode. Your Performance's ZONE Settings override the MIDI I/O mode setting... That's in the manual.

I've also tried the analog in on the montage for mixing in my nord stage at a rehearsal, unfortunately I ended up with problems with gainstaging. Realise this could be sorted in the mixing section. Quite good actually being able to ditch the small submixer and use the Montage instead.

"problems with gainstaging" - you can work those out, come on! 🙂
The A/D Input Part has its own two Insert Effects, access to the System Reverb and Variation... These get stored to your Montage Performance, as well!

You still haven't given us exactly what you are trying to accomplish. (And I realize this could be that you are still working it out in your mind... We understand, but as you can see you do not have to opt out for each Part and 5200 button pushes should never be a part of your workflow.) and if you have a device stuck in Omni mode, or that cannot select a receive channel 9-16 get a MIDI filter/router for that device (most any computer DAW should work for this purpose).

Question you should ask yourself when building setups
Are you attempting to play both the internal and external sounds simultaneously?
Are you attempting to play just internal Montage sounds alone?
Are you attempting to play just the external device?

You should be able to setup each scenario.

But it sounds like you're making progress. Let us know if you get stuck.