Synth Forum

Notifications
Clear all

Master keyboard to drive montage 6

28 Posts
2 Users
0 Likes
6,027 Views
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

I have this issue.
I want to use light 88 master keyboard to only drive note on montage 6 (like a 88 keybed of montage).....but at the same time I want to use montage to recall program in other keyboard by the molti midi mode function (in particular I use part 8 to send midi program change in channel 11).
Now it burn the problem: I have a 88 master keyboard that work on only one channel but I want use montage in multi midi channel mode as I wrote above.
If I set montage to work on single midi mode it happens that 88 master keyboard work fine with montage but I can't use montage to trasmit in a separate channel program change to recall program in other external device, so if I select also for external device the same single channel that I use for montage anytime I play 88 master keyboard or montage master keyboard also external device play in any case (before, in molti midi channel I can select if external device play or not by mean key zone setup)
The problem is that in a multi midi mode I can't select the channel in wich part 1 to 8 receive midi note (it is fixed to 1 to 8 channel).
It should be very usefull if in next firmware it will be a setting to use montage in multi midi mode ad receive from an external single midi channel master keyboard......also because it is very difficult to find master keyboard that transmit with 8 channel per time
Do you have any suggestion about it?
Any light 88 master with 8 channel midi channel transmit at the same time to drive montage in multi midi mode?
Thanks

 
Posted : 09/05/2017 1:57 pm
Jason
Posts: 7897
Illustrious Member
 

MIDI receive is a configuration shortcoming of Montage versus the best implementations from competing master controllers (flagships).

https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/master-controller#reply-19359

Physis Piano K4 is an 88 key w/8 zones 19.8 kg (43lb) - Compare to Montage 8 at 29kg (64lb)
Alesis QS8, QS8.1, or QS8.2 have 16 zones. QS8=50lb, QS8.1= 27.2 kg (60lb) - Used market (Ebay, etc)
Kurzweil PC3LE8 - more of a workstation - but has 16 zones - 24.56kg (54lb) - more options for Kurzweil at 8-zones
... tone engine+full-featured in addition to being one of the lightest and full-featured 88-key MIDI controllers:
Korg Kronos LS - 16 zones - Does not get high marks for the "feel" - 39.2 lb
Korg Kross 88 - 16 zones - even lighter - 28lb

StudioLogic SL-990 (PRO) is 8-zone (20kg) (NOTE: an EDIT removed the SL-880, not 8-MIDI zones)
Roland RD-2000 is 8-zone - 47lb
DOEPFER LMK4+ 88 GH is 8-zone - 24 kg

Sticking with Yamaha - a MOX8 would work.- 14.8kg (32.6lb) (EDIT: MOX/MOXF are 4-zone capable)

Used market again: OBERHEIM MC2000 - 8 zone - 23kg

Not sure why you're not able to search for some of this stuff yourself however. So far many threads with the same question and some previous feedback.

 
Posted : 09/05/2017 4:39 pm
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

Thanks Jason, but there are some model that you have indicated that aren't 8 or 16 part midi send capable per time....I check manual of studiologic for example and they have only 4 zone that can send midi in different channel. Also mox8 have only 4 zone...
My aim is to find out one under 15kg....

 
Posted : 10/05/2017 7:15 pm
Jason
Posts: 7897
Illustrious Member
 

Take SL-880 off the list. I threw Yamaha a bone - thought one could get around the 4-zone limit as how has been previously suggested since at least the ES series - by using master mode. Maybe not. Somewhat covered here: https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/solved-more-than-4-parts-for-a-live-set more detailed covered here (some caveats): http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/454293/#508029

... so probably not best tasked for what you want. i should have been more solid although for MOX (really meant MOXF) - I did mention "should" knowing i'd need to research more to be solid.

I think the Studiologic I landed on a page that had the SL-990 manual for both - so I incorrectly merged the capabilities of the two together.

Rest are fairly well researched.

Under 15kg you have the choice of Korg Kross 88 (12.7kg), or searching for your own solution.

Most 88 are weighted keys - which literally adds weight to the keyboard for this feature. There are few-to-none "weighted" controllers that appear to be as light as you're looking for. And since 88-key tend to be weighted: you're looking for somewhat of a unicorn. Of which, there's at least one available (because it's synth action).

The M-Audio Keystation 88 is 10kg - but only 4 zones. Extra zones also apparently weight a lot, figuratively. There is a keystation II - also 4 zones.

I'd like a laptop that's light and powerful - but I "settled" for powerful since I couldn't have both unless I paid a ton - which added too much "weight" to even the lightest+powerful laptop.

Maybe you can spend more time looking up controllers than I have. It'd be great if you did. Since you're much more "invested" in finding the solution than I am.

 
Posted : 10/05/2017 8:17 pm
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

Thanks Jason....and yes I'm looking for.
P.s. also kross doesn't transmit on 8 channel per time.

 
Posted : 10/05/2017 8:58 pm
Jason
Posts: 7897
Illustrious Member
 

Maybe I got it wrong. My read was that each Timbre gets its own "key zone" and there are 16 Timbres in the Korg Kross. I didn't possibly run through all the traps - but that's the basic source of the claim I made.

The manual http://i.korg.com/uploads/Support/USA_KROSS_OpG_E(1).pdf page 11 under "5. Press the OK (MENU) button." has a picture of the key zone and you can see one assigned and then 15 other "lines" above and below - lead me to believe there are 16 "zones".

What I didn't run through all the way was the MIDI implementation. Looks like each timbre (i.e. key zone) gets its own C-Timbre -> MIDI page so each tibre can set some MIDI settings (page 43).

Page 46 has a picture of the C-Timbre -> MIDI screen under "5. For timbres 1–3, set the MIDI Channel to Gch (Global channel)."

Now in the manual it shows setting the MIDI channel to global - which I assume you can change to a specific channel if you want. Global is similar to Yamaha's single MIDI mode where you can merge "PARTs" into a single output. Korg calls this global and seemingly you can opt-in to the single (global) channel or not on a timbre-by-timbre basis.

It's not altogether clear to me how addressing MIDI of external devices works. I do see that certain internal MIDI channels (when not global) trigger arpeggios. But the external use case is not spelled out very well in the manual. Perhaps this is where you've already researched more than me.

 
Posted : 10/05/2017 10:58 pm
Jason
Posts: 7897
Illustrious Member
 

Here's what audiofanzine says:

Source: http://en.audiofanzine.com/korg/kross/editorial/reviews/entry-level-redefined.html

Multiply by 16

Korg Kross
Despite being an entry-level workstation, the Kross is uncompromising in the assembly of its programs, far beyond what any competitor offers in this price range. It preserves the same 16-channel multi-timbral nature as Krome, keeping the Drum Track (MIDI channel to be specified), the two polyphonic arpeggiators (A and B, which can be assigned to any channel, at will and without any limits), and adding the Step Sequencer (active or not on channel 16). All 16 channels can be managed both by receiving (internal sound assignation) and transmitting (external MIDI channel assignation) data, which makes Kross an excellent master keyboard with 16 independent zones for transmitting (key range, velocity range, individual MIDI channels). Additionally, the 88-weighted-key model is a serious and very affordable candidate to control an entire complex MIDI installation, especially live.

The simultaneous visualization of 16 channels isn't as complete nor graphical as on the Krome or Kronos, but that's one of the rare concessions made in this mode. You can access, for each channel, the settings that have become a standard for Korg: program category, origin (internal/external), MIDI channel, playing mode (mono/poly/legato/one or two oscillators), volume, panorama, transposition, tuning, temperament, key range (including bottom and top limits), velocity range (with limits as well), and delay. Program editing within the combinations context is done via a dedicated "Tone Adjust" page, which allows you to take control of eight essential synthesis parameters: filter(s) cut-off frequency or frequencies, resonance(s), filter envelope intensity, velocity to amplitude, and ADSR (filter and amplitude envelopes controlled together). Everything is stored within the combinations, an alternative to the full editing of programs in their combination context, incorporated by Korg ever since the 01/W. You can filter certain MIDI controls (Program Change, Aftertouch, Sustain pedal, portamento, wheels, switches, pedals, CC…). You can also set the routing to the five insert effects and the sends to the two master effects. And don't forget the settings and the assignation towards the external signal effects buses, which are returned via one (of the two!) audio input of the Kross!

 
Posted : 10/05/2017 11:03 pm
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

Yes Jason you are right. Kros is 16 multipart trasmissione.. ..only things it doesn't has aftertouch

 
Posted : 11/05/2017 9:02 am
Jason
Posts: 7897
Illustrious Member
 

... I guess just add that to the list of requirements when you do your own searching.

 
Posted : 11/05/2017 11:57 am
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

I'm looking about it but it's not so easy

 
Posted : 11/05/2017 12:05 pm
Jason
Posts: 7897
Illustrious Member
 

Slightly over your weight limit is the Roland FA-08. Aftertouch is not conventional (using the piano keys) - but aftertouch can be assigned to the D-Beam, an assignable knob, or a switch. Probably most intuitive would be D-Beam. Showing 16 zones and weight is 16.5kg

The RD-2000 is "well" over your weight limit - but sort of a better match to Montage at least in design (to me). Lots of similar approaches. I do wish this 9th fader idea was taken up by Yamaha to ensure the tone-wheel emulations would present 9 bars at once. Unlike most roland gear, this one has a "conventional" mod wheel (in fact, there's two - like EX5, SY99, etc). No aftertouch - that combined with the weight may kill it - but it's an interesting board with complementary stuff (modeled EP and pianos). Also has two MIDI outs - so there's more than 16 channels worth of outputs (16x2). 8-zones however. Lots of nice controller touches on this one.

Maybe the Korg Kronos LS at 17.8kg w/16 zones and aftertouch checks all the boxes at the expense of 2.8kg.

You could wait for the GrandStage. Not sure how much that's going to weigh - since it's just a prototype at the

Native Instruments KOMPLETE KONTROL S88 - 14.4kg, At least 8 zones. Does have aftertouch.

 
Posted : 12/05/2017 7:26 am
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

Jason different from my previous answer I checked about korg kross and it can't send midi note on 16 chennel but only pc
It must be carefully considering keyboard that have 16part sequencer or 16 parts that can receive midi on 16 different channel as capable to drive montage because it is often wrong. The important things to look is the number of indipendent zones and at today I think that only dr2000 and pc3k have this functionality but both are very expensive.
To find out something cheep it is necessary to look in the used keyboard that is not the best things because keybed may have soffer the long time to use.....
At today the "cheeper" solution seems to be viscount phisys piano k4 but it cost more than controller because it feature piano etc....

 
Posted : 12/05/2017 5:33 pm
Jason
Posts: 7897
Illustrious Member
 

These are your "requirements". They are premium - so it is driving a premium solution. If you want cheap - then you back off on the zones primarily because 4-zones will get you into the less expensive controllers. The Phisys has a model with and without a full-blown tone generator. But still, they're asking a lot for just the keyboard as (primarily) a controller.

The RD-2000, Most every Kurzweil synth out there, the FA-08, LMK4+, Kronos LS - these all have the zone count you're after but may not meet either the weight, your new aftertouch requirement, or now your latest requirement for something cheap.

Cheap usually means you must buy used to get something even approaching premium requirements.

Maybe start saving up to change the financial requirement.

Or get creative with your solution. Like buy 2 small/cheap 49-key keyboards with 4-zones each so you end up with 8 zones.

M-Audio Axiom 49-Key USB Keyboard Controller x 2 = 8 zone, 6.3kg (for BOTH), and 98 keys total (10 more than a single 88 key controller).

You also get twice the knobs and pads and faders and what-not to fiddle with going this route.

... looking for a more "realistic" suggestion:

M-Audio Code 49 USB MIDI Controller x 2 = 9kg (for BOTH), 8 zones, aftertouch, 98 piano keys, 32 drum pads (lists as velocity sensitive), 2 X-Y pads, 18 faders, 18 macro buttons, 16 knobs, 2 pitch bend, 2 mod wheels, a couple sets of transport controls - not as costly as other suggestions with less features.

I'm not suggesting this exact solution necessarily - but perhaps if you re-think your requirements you can land more in a "comfort zone" of financials, weight, and features.

BTW: I myself have had periods of times when I considered purchasing a MIDI controller as my primary interface that would be 88-key and last through many generations of "swapping out" the keyboard it was controlling (or rack unit) -- and just use a 61 key or smallest version of the "premium" keyboard.

However, I ultimately have never purchased a MIDI controller because:

a) The cost didn't make sense vs. just buying a larger "premium" keyboard
b) The controls on the MIDI controller are "always" a compromise vs. the controls on the "premium" keyboard.
c) If I'm going to carry an extra "thing" - I want it to make sounds that are different than the rest of my equipment AND perhaps provide some MIDI control of other gear. ... which has me eschew the controller-only devices.

At the moment, I have a synth-action Montage and an S90XS if I want the full weighted 88-key control. Yes, limited by 4 zones - but I have many options to overcome this including MIDI Mode=Single Channel. I've never paired the two - and never would during a gig. This is more of a pleasure-playing back-pocket configuration in case I want to have a better feeling piano/rhodes experience so the lack of uber-zone is not an issue for me.

If I wanted to add a few zones to control more than 8 sounds - I would use the Montage keyboard in addition to a 2nd tier - and could put the lighter-weight MO6 on the 2nd tier to act primarily as a MIDI controller. If I only need a few extra channels - I've got one of those mini-key Korg things that would work fine. It's 61-key - has it's own great complementary internal sounds - and is 4.2kg

I'm not saying to change any of your requirements - but sometimes when you hit a brick wall - you start digging, climbing, or going around it. So I'm offering some alternatives only to either spawn ideas or (which would be fine) to be shot down as unacceptable.

 
Posted : 12/05/2017 8:51 pm
Posts: 0
Trusted Member
Topic starter
 

Ok. ok.....but the best things to me is to find out (or waiting for) something similar studiologic sl88 studio that cost 400€ but have 8 zones.....I have just spent a lot of money about montage :--)
Two keyboard to play 88 notes is out of sense to me but is an idea :--)
Afetertouch it is not primary requirement......a decent key yes and weight under 20 kg.....at the moment viscount is the one similar but cost a lot of.
Thanks anyway Jason

 
Posted : 13/05/2017 5:44 am
Jason
Posts: 7897
Illustrious Member
 

The Roland Juno DS 88 is 16kg, 16 zones, no aftertouch. I see used market ones from people who used it once or twice and decided they need a smaller keyboard. Price for used is around 730 Euro - not a huge discount vs. new. Still recent release - so pricing discounts for used are not drastic. This is a full-blown keyboard - so you get complementary sounds from it.

The DS is a value keyboard - but the keybed is the same as the RD-300NX, although some sources say it is actually an improved version of the RD-300NX keybed. It (the Juno DS) receives very high marks from multiple sources on the feel/response of the keyboard. There is MIDI velocity for note-off events. This is not something I've been looking for as a spec - so not sure how common that is among the other keyboards listed. Some prefer the feel of this keybed over the RD-2000 (which is slightly newer and more "premium").

Many have assigned a foot controller to aftertouch.

I still prefer the control surface of the RD-2000 better due to 9 faders, more knobs and buttons. Also the preset focus of the RD-2000. However, this comes with a price tag.

Unlike Yamaha, who de-features MIDI zone control for the lower-end keyboards - Roland keeps zone flexibility in the lower end keyboards.

For Yamaha, my point of reference for the "low end" is the MX series (2 zone) as the MX88 and this DS88 have the same retail. Since the MX is a repeat of the Montage sounds (Montage and MX having Motif as a common reference) - even if the MX88 had 16 zones I'd go with the Roland since the price is the same and offers complementary sounds (meaning ones not already in the Montage).

 
Posted : 16/05/2017 5:31 am
Page 1 / 2
Share:

© 2024 Yamaha Corporation of America and Yamaha Corporation. All rights reserved.    Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us