Hello Everyone:

We’ve looked into reports regarding CP73 black key velocity issues.

Just as a reference, CP73 was designed for musicians needing mobility as much as they need piano-focused sounds and a weighted action. The keyboard action is a significant part of a stage piano’s weight. Keeping CP73 mobile meant we couldn’t just use a 73-note version of the CP88 keyboard.

Regarding the issue, here’s what we’ve found: we couldn’t recreate the issue under our typical playing conditions. The only way we could recreate this issue is by using multiple fingers on a single key with repeated and very heavy force. We actually nearly knocked the CP73 off the stand trying to recreate this issue. Our thinking is we’re hitting the internal hammer mechanism so hard that it’s rebounding back off the top of the case and giving the velocity sensor a false reading.

We understand that everyone plays differently so we might have a couple of simple solutions that could help.

1. We know this seems simple and but try turning up the CP73 volume – either the unit itself, the mix or your speakers. The keyboard action and tone generator are a system connected to your hands and ears. Changing any single part of the system affects the interaction of the others.
2. Adjust the Touch Curve to “Hard.” Alternatively, you may even find the “Soft” setting gets you into the higher part of the velocity sooner which will tell your hands to back off a bit.
3. If possible, try a different keyboard stand. As mentioned above, we were using so much force that we nearly knocked the CP off the stand.
4. Finally, it could be that the CP88 might be a better choice. The keys have more mass and there’s a triple (as opposed to a double) sensor for velocity detection.

Of course, our goal is to have everyone fully enjoy their instrument. We’re asking our Japanese engineering team if there’s any way to improve the playing experience in this situation. We’ll keep you posted on the progress. In the meantime, we’d recommend starting with points 1 and 2 above and letting us know if this helps. Thanks for letting us know!

Lastly, I personally have played CP73 on several occasions in different types of music from jazz solo piano, trios, rock, pop and funk and have never experienced this during a gig. There are a few videos of me playing and demonstrating CP73 and I've listened back to them and didn't hear anything like this listening back.

I am not a super heavy handed player (I think I'm pretty "average"...Not too heavy, not too light) and I set the Touch Curve to "Hard" on most weighted action keyboards.

As stated above, I can get this to happen by striking a key with fast repeated force that I simply wouldn't use when playing...Put it this way: If it was a Rhodes I would worry about breaking a tine. That's level of force I'm talking about. I

'm not disagreeing that the black key issue can happen, but I think for the vast majority of players who are looking for a lightweight mobile weighted action stage piano the CP73 will work nicely. And as I stated above, for those who want a more piano like experience, the CP88 is probably a better choice.

So this bug is a matter of choosing the right stand or a specific touch curve?

Hello Blake,
Thanks for your response.
If I'm allowed to do so, I'll try to reply and answer what you're pointing here. Let me start with this:

Lastly, I personally have played CP73 on several occasions in different types of music from jazz solo piano, trios, rock, pop and funk and have never experienced this during a gig. There are a few videos of me playing and demonstrating CP73 and I've listened back to them and didn't hear anything like this listening back.

So, you couldn't be able to reproduce that weird behaviour? That probably shows that only some CP73 units had the problem.
If there's other people experiencing this, as other users pointed on this board and here:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CP73--yamaha-cp73-73-note-stage-piano/reviews please drop more comments.
If it is of any importance, I think I was able to photograph the s/n of my CP73 before sending it back to the dealer.

As stated above, I can get this to happen by striking a key with fast repeated force that I simply wouldn't use when playing...Put it this way: If it was a Rhodes I would worry about breaking a tine. That's level of force I'm talking about.

The black keys fixed velocity problem were showed in my unit when played hard but I'm not sure of what are you pointing. I had two actual Rhodes way back and playing the dynamics that I'm describing would not damage the mechanism. (BTW I never tried that on mines, but just playing I think it's pretty difficult to break a tine on a Rhodes EVEN banging the keys. I suppose you get to that if you act very aggressively).

We understand that everyone plays differently so we might have a couple of simple solutions that could help.

1. We know this seems simple and but try turning up the CP73 volume – either the unit itself, the mix or your speakers. The keyboard action and tone generator are a system connected to your hands and ears. Changing any single part of the system affects the interaction of the others

To answer this, first I want to state that I tested and played my CP73 connected to what top engineers consider one of the best D.I.'s out there, a Millennia TD-1- please check it out, if you don't know what I'm talking about -. In fact I was connecting the CP73 stereo outs to TWO actual TD-1 units in my studio, so I think my gain staging was not bad and I kept my CP73's volume to 75 or 80% which is near optimal and a pretty common use. Anyway I've tried different levels and can confirm here that that has nothing to do with the black keys strange velocity response.

2. Adjust the Touch Curve to “Hard.” Alternatively, you may even find the “Soft” setting gets you into the higher part of the velocity sooner which will tell your hands to back off a bit.

My choice for a CP73 action would be the NORMAL curve, the most common used curve, but we know this a personal decision for the player.
Anyway, as I stated before, the velocity curve selected have not changed the weird black keys response - that's it: reaching a point when the velocity stays fixed - except, obviously, in the FIXED position.

3. If possible, try a different keyboard stand. As mentioned above, we were using so much force that we nearly knocked the CP off the stand.

Oh! Off the stand? Sorry to hear that.
Thankfully, it never occurred with my unit. Yes I'm a professional and if the music requires it, I can play soft or hard but I do not play that "banging-it" hard, but who knows, maybe you figured out the contrary.
I also use a very sturdy Z-type stand here in my studio which also serves me for placing big heavy keyboards on it.

4. Finally, it could be that the CP88 might be a better choice. The keys have more mass and there’s a triple (as opposed to a double) sensor for velocity detection

Yes, we agree. Sure that CP88 keyboard would be a better choice... the thing for me, and BTW, probably for many of us, is that we already own big 88 keyboards (CP line, Montage, MODX...) in our studios, and we know it's a compromise BUT we want a GOOD more portable alternative to perform on gigs with no professional transportation and with little or very comprised stage-space. For those, a 73 weighted-keys will probably do the trick. That's why I ordered the CP73.

If Yamaha is interested enough to release a stripped-down 73-keys triple-sensor version of the CP88, just count on me ; )
it sure will be no.1 on my buy-list.

All the best,

Jose

Note that if you find the issue occurs at any velocity less than 127 (using any velocity curve) - then the issue is not isolated to playing too hard. There may be variability from unit-to-unit. I'm not sure you're looking at the velocities the CP is reporting when the issue occurs. The CP should not "fail" when sensing any velocity less than 127 - because, by definition, this can never be striking a key too hard (since there's still one velocity level before you've reached the ceiling).

According to Blake's testing - apparently this only would occur when the velocity sensed is 127. And that the force taken is well after the velocity was sensed as 127. But it'd be "great" if this behavior could be identified on units at velocities less than 127 because this would shift the issue from possible issues related to usage or setup and shift them to the unit itself.

Just to "close" the topic for me:
I switched over to the CP88 !
(big thanks to my dealer)

The CP88 plays like it should. The white AND the black keys.
Something with the blacks keys on the CP73 were definitely wrong.And NO it was not my playing techniq or whatever (should be on the whites then too...)

I owned and played a P200, S80, P250, CP4, MOXF8 in the past and 2 or 3 sensors, I didn't notice any problems, never.

Maybe it was a specific production batch or only some models.... who knows.....
But for me Yamaha should check the production parameters, tolerances of his "newly developed" BHS keybeds if some models have it and some not.

Now, I enjoy the CP88. Best Stage Piano I ever had. I don't see an alternative on the market. A joy to play !

Hey everyone!

I am considering buying a Yamaha CP 73, and 88 is not an option because is too big and heavy for me, my car and the gigs I'm used to make. I am a little bit concerned about this "black keys" issue, and I think Yamaha's comments on this topic have been honest but not very useful for the ones that have this problem. I post here to refresh this topic and also to ask for advice. Should I get Yamaha CP73 even with this testimonials?

I found a youtube demonstration of the 73, and at the minute "9:08" aprox you can see this issue that everyone is talking about (or I think so). Please take a look!

Video

Thank you all in advance!!

Hi Cansale,

Well, being that I am the one playing the CP73 in that video I can tell you: I absolutely didn't hear or feel the issue. I think you were referring to the two Bbs I play in a row right that time: the first was at a higher velocity, the second at lower velocity. That's it. NOT ONCE did I stop and think "what was that? was there some weird thing that just happened?"

I spent a huge amount of time with the CP73 at San Francisco Music Expo a few weeks ago and played the instrument for hours and it was great. I set the velocity curve to hard and feel like it plays just fine. There were lots of people who came it and played it and not one person said a thing about the issue.

Now the question you might have is this: CAN I get it to happen? Well, as I stated above, yes. I can repeat the issue only if I play in a way that I simply would not. I literally have to pound on the keyboard over and over to get it to happen.

Now, I want to be clear: The CP88 action is pretty nice, and if I had to choose I'd prefer that for two reasons: The GH3 triple sensor and the 88 notes. There is a greater level of expressiveness, especially at lower velocities. And I miss those extra notes, especially at the bottom. HOWEVER: If I were playing gigs and moving around alot, the CP73 is what I'd play. If I lived in NYC and was taking the subway from gig to gig, or driving a small car around where space is limited...CP73 all the way.

There are those in this thread that switched over to the CP88, and I get it. But at 28.9/12.1 (lbs/kg) vs 41/18.9...the distance you have to walk to the stage from the car might be a factor.

In the end, I'd be happy to play a CP73 on a gig, and as all of our marketing states:

CP73 for the Gigging Keyboardist
CP88 for the Discerning Pianist

And you can be both!

Hi Cansale,

Well, being that I am the one playing the CP73 in that video I can tell you: I absolutely didn't hear or feel the issue. I think you were referring to the two Bbs I play in a row right that time: the first was at a higher velocity, the second at lower velocity. That's it. NOT ONCE did I stop and think "what was that? was there some weird thing that just happened?"

I spent a huge amount of time with the CP73 at San Francisco Music Expo a few weeks ago and played the instrument for hours and it was great. I set the velocity curve to hard and feel like it plays just fine. There were lots of people who came it and played it and not one person said a thing about the issue.

Now the question you might have is this: CAN I get it to happen? Well, as I stated above, yes. I can repeat the issue only if I play in a way that I simply would not. I literally have to pound on the keyboard over and over to get it to happen.

Now, I want to be clear: The CP88 action is pretty nice, and if I had to choose I'd prefer that for two reasons: The GH3 triple sensor and the 88 notes. There is a greater level of expressiveness, especially at lower velocities. And I miss those extra notes, especially at the bottom. HOWEVER: If I were playing gigs and moving around alot, the CP73 is what I'd play. If I lived in NYC and was taking the subway from gig to gig, or driving a small car around where space is limited...CP73 all the way.

There are those in this thread that switched over to the CP88, and I get it. But at 28.9/12.1 (lbs/kg) vs 41/18.9...the distance you have to walk to the stage from the car might be a factor.

In the end, I'd be happy to play a CP73 on a gig, and as all of our marketing states:

CP73 for the Gigging Keyboardist
CP88 for the Discerning Pianist

And you can be both!

Hi, Blake!

First of all, I aprecciate your answer! I understand the differences between cp73 and cp88, and I also understand that the situation about the black keys is an isolate problem that I am not going to experience (specially because I am a jazz player, softer than majority of modern pianists).

After thinking a lot, I've decided to purchase the CP73, so now I'm waiting for it! CP88 is not an option due to weight and size, but If I wasn't a gig musician I would have take it.

Thanks a lot for you response!!!

Blake, why is it on the Black Keys only ?
And NOT on the White Keys?

There seems something not correct with the mechanical construction or the sensor placement?
Else it could be fixed by firmware.....

Maybe they better used the GHS from P121....

Anyway, the CP88 ist the better choice. The keyboard is fantastic and worth the few kilos more!
18kg is not that heavy for a Digi.

Hi Everyone,

I own a cp73 and I am really happy with the sounds. I could imagine some simple improvements which yamaha could easily add with a firmware update but it is a different topic, so I won't detail my ideas now. 🙂

Unfortunatelly, I felt the black keys issue too. Firstly, I thought it is because I know about it but later it happened in concert circumstances when I really did not want to create the issue. Furthermore, I am a jazz musician and not a heavy handed guy. I tried everything which were suggested here and nothing helped. I hope yamaha can somehow solve this problem with updating the firmware. If not then I would be a bit dissappointed because I really love yamaha's products and the high quality of them.

I have a CP73 as well and love most things about it. However, I've noticed after a few months of playing a couple of the white keys have starting clacking a bit. Almost as if a weight or something in the key is loose. Has anyone else experienced this?

I'm disappointed that the CP73 is not simply a smaller profile version of the 88. So, I remain in the search for the 73 or 76 note keyboard that actually feels the way it needs to to satisfy the pianist in me - a seemingly simple idea, but I haven't found this keyboard (a properly wood weighted non 88) on the market in my decades of experience. Please Yamaha, consider making the action of the 73 equal to that of the 88. I'm good with a few extra pounds. I was dealing with the heavier Roland RD700 for years - a great piano, but a back breaker. The cp73 with a few extra pounds would be nowhere near the bulk of the RD, and I think would be a hit. In the meantime, the p121 will have to remain my piano board, a compromise. Darn - I would have loved to have had all those juicy bells and whistles on the cp.

https://youtu.be/yorixT7quVc

Take a look at 7min 30sek in.

I think people are failing to realize the nature of digital pianos (especially dual sensor keybeds). After you get past a certain speed you get mis-strikes because the key itself has not returned and you are trying to hit it while its down. This is not a bug, it is a trait that all two sensor keybeds have.

On a 2-sensor board, if the key has not yet returned to a position that is above the top sensor (i.e. "hitting it while it's down"), you will not get a strike at a wrong velocity... rather, you will get no strike at all. All you'll hear is whatever decay remains of your previous strike.

As for Blake's ability to reproduce the problem only with strikes that are so hard that the board practically falls off the stand, combining that with the fact that people have apparently experienced this without practicallty throwing anvils onto the keys, I think the answer might be (a) it is indeed something that can happen with this action, as even Blake experienced, but (b) the amount of force one needs to use to instigate this behavior may vary somewhat on a unit-to-unit basis.

Hi all!
Well, i just came out from the largest music store in Sweden. Have been playing and testing the cp73. Wonderful stage piano. Great keybed, a tad lighter on the touch compared to the CP88 which is a good thing for my playing style. The black keys are a little more heavy than the white keys but is not a problem. BUT I’m sad to say that the black keys do have the velocity problem. And it happens even if you play soft (I dont play hard anyway, I’m gentle player). I tested the different touch/velocity settings to no effect. Only the black keys. And it happens when you play the same black key continuously, not even that fast actually. I’m on the fence here. You can call me a Yamaha fanboy so I’m disappointed. (Proud owner of MODX, DX7II, SY77, CP reface to name a few products) So please Blake and Yamaha, believe what we say here. All the best to all you. /M