@Bill if you hold down Shift and Press the Bank Select button you'll see you can jump to part 9, and 13 with your next press.

[quotePost id=120725]

The empty part 5 slot is selected if there are less than 5 parts.

IMO that is a bug. I can't envision a valid 'that is how it was designed to work' scenario.
[/quotePost]

Agreed, Bill.

 

(premise: I'm the Original Poster, I created another account because I couldn't login to my original one, at first)

First of all, thank you all very much for your replies! 🙂

[quotePost id=120721]What any normal person's going to want is that the Performance Name ("HOME") position be retained whilst cycling through Slider Control settings of the subsections of Parts.[/quotePost]

That's exactly my point.
I'm not discussing the way ModX was designated, which is as it is: you may like it OR dislike it, and in that case you could switch to another model or brand.
It took me a while, but I finally understood how my keyboard works. I know the difference from single parts' Control Assign and the global Performance's Control Assign. And, of course, I understood that if you select a part, the keyboard will always play only that part (even if it has Keyboard Control off), unless it's muted.

My problem:
I just would like to control part 1-8 volume while keep playing parts that currently have Keyboard Control on.

Bad Mister provided a GREAT tutorial about how to accomplish this by using Performance's assignable knobs (and I really thank you, because your tutorial, as always, is really exhaustive and educational). But, despite this IS a workaround that works, in exchange you have to sacrifice one or more knobs.
I mean: if I want to be able to change part 5-8 volume (all of them) without using the Part bank switch, I'll have only 4 custom assignable knobs to use (at Performance level), not 8. And what if, for example, would I like to control volume of ALL of parts 9 to 16? I would'nt have enough assignable knobs to use! The only way would be to connect an additional MIDI controller with 16 sliders (or 8 sliders and a "bank switch" 😀 ).
Maybe it is a workaround, but I really think that this should NOT be the way. The "bank switch" exists in many MIDI controllers, and it works the same in all of them. Ironically, ModX also does it that way, but it also selects the first part of the bank (5, 9, 13).
I could reverse the concept: why, if you press the "bank switch" again coming back to 1-4 bank, ModX doesn't select Part 1 but it select the "Performance" (Home view), enabling global Performance's control assigns?

For what I can see, I'm pretty sure that this is a bug (because, as most of you said, there is no logical reason to select single parts while switching banks). I hope that Yamaha will fix it soon (should I send a bug feedback to them?).
In the meantime, I think Bad Mister's workaround is the only way (other than connecting an external MIDI controller).

Thank you all again!!
Have a nice day. 🙂
Rob

Interesting discussion!

I also find this behaviour annoying. I currently jam a lot with some SLIDER performances from Easy Sounds. As the name suggests, they are particularly made for blending in and out different parts via the volume sliders. Additionally, common and part assignable knobs are programmed for interesting sound effects.

In this case, when switching sliders to control parts 5-8 all of the sudden the assignable knobs function for part 5, because of this strange behaviour.

Is there a way to report this as a bug, and is there a chance to get fixed this by Yamaha? I mean, this shouldn’t be a big deal for the programmers …

By the way, I really wonder why this bug has not been noticed so far …

@ Original Poster (Roberto)

My problem:
I just would like to control part 1-8 volume while keep playing parts that currently have Keyboard Control on.

You’re welcome, by the way. I figured you’d want a way to accomplish this (a solution) rather than just noise and complaints…
I highly recommend that if you think it’s a bug, report it. I don’t happen to think so (as I explained).

Each of the 8 Common Assign Knob can be assigned to adjust 16 Destinations.
Those Destinations can be adjusting several different Parts and those Part’s parameters.
Say you’re playing Part 1 and wish to adjust the Volume of Parts 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8.
A single Common Assign Knob is sufficient to individually adjust the volume each of these seven Parts.
You can program exactly how much and in which direction they change the volume as the Knob is moved — if all you can think is linear change (then that’s all you be able to program). But each of the Parts will behave exactly as you program it. There are more Curve Types than just the default (linear Standard).

This is a concept of the Control Assign matrix.
One of an infinite number of possible scenarios: You can use a single knob to turn Part 2 up, while turning Part 3 up a completely different amount, while turning Part 4 down and Part 5 down a completely different amount, while Part 6 remains the same until you pass 9 o’clock at which point it rapidly increases in volume, Part 7 might be loud initially fade to zero and return when the Knob nears maximum, etc., etc. Each assignment has its own Curve, Polarity, Ratio and shaping Parameters.

Say at minimum (7 o’clock) each of these Parts is at its designated start volume. As you reach 9 o’clock, you might have an entirely different mix, at 11 o’clock another complete different mix, and so on… if all you have ever used is the “Curve Type” = Standard — I highly recommend you explore just a little bit further. Can’t find a Curve Type in the Preset Curves, create your own!

Or (taking a different approach) you can give each Part 2-8, its own (named) volume Knob… or you can group the Parts together on a single Knob, as makes sense for your music. I highly recommend you start with a single parameter per knob, until you wrap your head around how this works. I recommend some of the advanced tutorials where you’ll discover how the Control Assign matrix can be used to do things you probably have not even thought about.

I recommend: Start with simple stuff - use a single Knob to fade up and down Parts 2 thru 8 to accomplish different mixes.
Then recognize that you can customize each Parts degree (amount) and direction of change.
Recognize you can group things like rhythm section stuff to one Common Assign Knob, sweetening (brass/strings/pads) to a separate Common Assign Knob… and so on,

I simply recommend spending your time and energy getting to know what IS possible. To others posting their thoughts:
If you want to bellyache or discuss if it’s a bug… please go ahead (frankly, I don’t have time for that - and please, don’t waste your time trying to convince me) you are free to submit your thoughts to the IdeaScale… no real need to repeat them here. Here, a better discussion would be how to make the Common Assign Knobs work for you.

Common Assign Knobs can address both KBD CTRL and non-KBD CTRL Parts… without leaving the HOME position!
I’ll say it once more: the 8 Common Assign Knobs are like additional Super Knobs in that they can address any Part via its link to the Part’s own Part Assign Knobs. And they are available *without* you having to *select* the individual Part (they are available when you are in the HOME position). I get the point: you are surprised when you move away from the HOME (common) position, you are selecting to communicate with that selected Part… my solution: you don’t move away from the HOME position.

An external controller can be used…
I don’t know if it’s still available everywhere but the Yamaha “Fader & Pads” — came out back in MOXF/Motif XF days… 8 programmable sliders that could be programmed to control Volume across you Parts 1-8, Channels 1-8.

If you were able to download that when it was free and available, it works great for your requirement — I’m sure someone makes an app that can be 8 faders, (that’s not too tough to build). Each Slider would need to be on a separate channel

__if you select a channel to transmit on, the keys are now instructed to ‘play’ the sound. You should not be surprised that devices that use Channel CC messages follow suit. Part Assign Knobs (cc17-24)and Part Sliders (cc7) use Channel CC messages.
Common Assign Knobs do not use Channel CC messages… they can address any of 16 Channels without selecting that specific channel__ this is why they are available when you’re at HOME!

and please, don’t waste your time trying to convince me

Then please understand we aren't trying to 'convince' you.

We have been trying to get you to comment about the problem OP posted about.

You said you did address it but I couldn't see how you reply correlated with the 'select part 5' issue so I ask you for clarafication.

I also posted simple, specific test cases to illustrate the core issue - although I'm certain you didn't need those to understand or reproduce what was happening.

Here, a better discussion would be how to make the Common Assign Knobs work for you.

Maybe phrasing it like that will be better:

Here is the issue:

Toggling the Element/Operator button selects/deselects part 5 whether there are 16 parts or 1 part and without regard to whether any parts have keyboard control.

How do we make that automatic selection of part 5 'work for us'? Right now it is getting in the way.

If it is intentionally designed to work that way do you have any insight as to what it's intended use cases are?

I certainly apologize if you thought my comments were a personal attack. They are not. They are a sincere attempt to 'pick the brain' of a recognized expert in this area.

[quotePost id=120718]Montage has a similar problem when switching the sliders from 1-8 to 9-16. I remember venting about this sometime ago but couldn't dig this up.

There's a lot of reasons why one would like activate a different bank than the default (1-8, 9-16 for Montage ; 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-16 for MODX) without also selecting a Part.
[/quotePost]
Yeah, sounds like a good idea for ideascale.

[quotePost id=120719]Goal: adjust Part 7 volume while keep playing Part 1. [/quotePost]
I guess the question is whether you see that as the goal. 🙂 I think the way at least some us were looking at it was more like: Goal: select a different set of fader controls or screen display, without changing what keyboard part is playing. Which relates to Jason's comment about there being numerous reason one might want to do this, not only wanting to adjust a level for some other Part. (ETA: Though even for that, it would be convenient to be able to do this on any 5+ part Performance without having to set up the ability in advance of when you might need it, and without having to tie up knobs that could be available for other purposes, or worry about running out of knobs depending on how many Parts are in the performance, if you want on-the-fly ability to adjust any of them.)

[quotePost id=120719] If, however, you select, by touching any non-KBD CTRL Part slot, you are now playing that selected Part. You are no longer communicating with KBD CTRL group. As I state, that is true. And explains the behavior the original poster is experiencing.
[/quotePost]
From the player's perspective, though, he never touched any non-KBD CTRL Part slot... he merely hit the hard button that switches the sliders and display from 1-4 to 5-8. That's not touching a "non-KBD CTRL Part slot."

As Andrew and Bob pointed out, since hitting the 5-8 button selects part 5, but then hitting the 1-4 button does not select part 1 (regardless of whether or not Part 1 was selected before you made the change, btw), this behavior is not even internally consistent.

"Bug" is an interesting word. So this isn't necessarily about attempting to convince you that there is a bug. It may indeed be working exactly the way the engineers wanted it to, which means, by definition, it is not a bug. But while this operation may be working as intended, it's hard to see what the benefit is to the player, it seems much more likely to be an obstacle. (Especially where there isn't even any sound assigned to the Part that's being activated!) The way it works doesn't seem sensible from a player's stand point, even assuming the engineers absolutely intended it to work this way. So I guess at this point maybe the question really is, if it's not a bug, what operational/musical benefit might there be to having it work the way it does? Maybe we're missing something.

(ETA: Or maybe, as Jason's comment suggested, it was just an unavoidable, unfortunate consequence of some other necessary/useful aspect of the board's operation. Which again, wouldn't make it a "bug" per se, even if it's undesirable behavior.)

Hi everyone,

I finally decided to inform Yamaha USA about this, because it seems a bug to me (strongly hoping for a fix in the next firmware update).
Yamaha Support Case: Ref.#02921866ref:_00D30F1z._5004S4ZH8R:ref

Thank you all for partecipating to this discussion. 🙂
Rob

I finally decided to inform Yamaha USA about this, because it seems a bug to me (strongly hoping for a fix in the next firmware update).

Good - I reported it to them at the same time I ask you to do it in one of my earlier replies.

The more people that report problems and issues (including the TON of SPAM that keeps showing up in the forums) the more likely they are to take some action.

Spam related Bump.