For the delays, I see what you mean about Dry/Wet set to full dry D63>W and the delay effect's EQ settings still impact the sound even though the delay itself (testing cross delay: delay times, feedback, FB High Damp, Input select) do not when D63>W.

Another insertion effect with EQ inside the ins effect is "Comp Distortion". When I set D63>W for "Comp Distortion", this EQ does not have any impact on the sound.

However, a different effect category still and "Classic Flanger" has an EQ section as part of the insertion effect that IS impacting the sound even when D63>W (full dry).

And G Chorus, as an example, also has the insertion effect's EQ impacting the sound even when fully dry D63>W.

I don't know what to tell you other than that's how it is. The most odd thing to me is that a minority of effects (like Comp Distortion) manage to not have EQs impact the dry sound. There's past guides that explain EQs do not have dry/wet because of phase cancellation issues and this is probably driving the reason for this -- so EQ can be applied uniformly while the rest of the signal is adjusted dry vs wet. That said - I'm not sure why some effects do not follow this unless it was maybe deemed that phase cancellation is part of the "sound" of say Comp Distortion. Speculation is all I can offer.

For lag - this is talking about the placement in time. Turn on your click and adjust the number and strike an initial note on the CLICK's downbeat. You'll be able to hear how either the delay is anticipated (negative values), right on the money (0), or lagging behind (positive values).

For Feedback Hi Damp: when I set the value to 1.0, I essentially hear no decay in the high frequencies (there is a delay, it's just super slow and took several minutes to recognize that the decay is happening). When I set it to 0.1, I hear a pronounced decay in high frequency content.

Tempo Delay Stereo
Delay Time 1/4, L/R Diffusion +63ms, Lag 0ms, Feedback +63, Dry/Wet D<W63 (fully wet). EQ settings as default.

Also the sound I am putting into the insertion effect is an FM-X initialized sound where OP1 (default is a carrier that has a level of max 99) sets the Coarse tuning to 18 in order to produce ultra high frequencies. Then I turn on OP2 (also a carrier) with a slightly lower level (level=80) and I leave its ratio as default (Coarse 1, Fine 0).

I happened to be playing just an E above middle C.

[quotePost id=119171]

First, I can hear almost no difference to the wet signal when the Feedback Hi Damp is at any setting if I listen to the wet signal on a long feedback

I find it much easier to help with this type of question/issue when I can use the exact test case you are using.

The problem is that if our result doesn't match yours the most likely reason is that we aren't really testing the same combination of things that you are.

Since, in another thread, you said you were 'exploring' you might consider giving us ALL of the info you have about a use case you are exploring:

1. what 'test' are you conducting? i.e. what are you trying to determine? - what effect feedback damp or eq settings have on a sound

2. what setup conditions are you using? - this would include info about the perf, part, element/operator and effects and how they are configured.

3. what did you do to conduct the test? - set the value of parameters A,B,C to M,N,O then played notes S,T,U

4. what results did you get? "I can hear almost no difference to the wet . . .'

5. what results did you expect to get?

Can you post the details of the test you did so we can try the same test ourselves?

Or you could just concede that you don't know anything about what's being asked, and that Jason does.

As does anyone that's battled with the Delays. Granted, they're not as clumsy as the reverbs, but as Rebecca's shown in her question, there's at least three oddities that jump right out at first time users of these delays.

Hi Damp is oddly named and the values inverted from what would make sense to any normal, common, average person. And not the same as those on the reverbs, which this should be, since both work in conjunction with forwarding stuff into the future.

The offset fo the delay is also oddly named, and the documentation is wrong, suggesting it's note time based when it's arbitrarily using the MIDI range to describe that, and we don't have any insight into what those values mean. My guess would be that 8 is a 1/6th, 16 is an 8th, 24 is a 1/4, 32 is a half, 40 a whole, 48 might be 2 beats, 56 might be a bar, and 63 two bars, or maybe four bars.

But that's if you're at 120 bpm, or 90 bpm. I can't remember which, and it's not true for all...

or something like that. As this is kind of how it is in a couple of other places where the MIDI range of 127 is mirrored around 0.

The EQ's are a great feature to have, but really need to be better, and standardised. Some are merely high and low, some have 3 bands, and some have four. Some have a Q setting, some don't. Some are always on the final blend of both dry and wet signal, some are only on the effects (not many, despite the fact that this is what they should be) and some seem to impact the dry/original signal and the wet signal, and then sum them.

Decays really need fall off envelopes, too. To bring them into the new world, such that we can fade them out as we like, rather than clumsily, and without having to burn a Motion Sequence to do it, which isn't even polyphonic... etc.

Jason's said most of what I'm saying, better. This is just in the hope that you'll learn to see that others see what the problems are, and that there's a language for discussing oddities that doesn't require asinine miniature and exactitude, just a quick "hey, what the hell is going on here...?" to be read and understood by a sympathetic and experienced user able to acclimatise the user to what's going on.

There's a LOT of this kind of stuff in the Montage/MODX. Hence the validity of asking "why" questions.

[quotePost id=119171]

First, I can hear almost no difference to the wet signal when the Feedback Hi Damp is at any setting if I listen to the wet signal on a long feedback

I find it much easier to help with this type of question/issue when I can use the exact test case you are using.

The problem is that if our result doesn't match yours the most likely reason is that we aren't really testing the same combination of things that you are.

Since, in another thread, you said you were 'exploring' you might consider giving us ALL of the info you have about a use case you are exploring:

1. what 'test' are you conducting? i.e. what are you trying to determine? - what effect feedback damp or eq settings have on a sound

2. what setup conditions are you using? - this would include info about the perf, part, element/operator and effects and how they are configured.

3. what did you do to conduct the test? - set the value of parameters A,B,C to M,N,O then played notes S,T,U

4. what results did you get? "I can hear almost no difference to the wet . . .'

5. what results did you expect to get?

Can you post the details of the test you did so we can try the same test ourselves?
[/quotePost]

Or you could just concede that you don't know anything about what's being asked, and that Jason does.

As does anyone that's battled with the Delays. Granted, they're not as clumsy as the reverbs, but as Rebecca's shown in her question, there's at least three oddities that jump right out at first time users of these delays.

Hi Damp is oddly named and the values inverted from what would make sense to any normal, common, average person. And not the same as those on the reverbs, which this should be, since both work in conjunction with forwarding stuff into the future.

The offset fo the delay is also oddly named, and the documentation is wrong, suggesting it's note time based when it's arbitrarily using the MIDI range to describe that, and we don't have any insight into what those values mean. My guess would be that 8 is a 1/16th, 16 is an 8th, 24 is a 1/4, 32 is a half, 40 a whole, 48 might be 2 beats, 56 might be a bar, and 63 two bars, or maybe four bars.

But that's if you're at 120 bpm, or 90 bpm. I can't remember which, and it's not true for all...

or something like that. As this is kind of how it is in a couple of other places where the MIDI range of 127 is mirrored around 0.

The EQ's are a great feature to have, but really need to be better, and standardised. Some are merely high and low, some have 3 bands, and some have four. Some have a Q setting, some don't. Some are always on the final blend of both dry and wet signal, some are only on the effects (not many, despite the fact that this is what they should be) and some seem to impact the dry/original signal and the wet signal, and then sum them.

Decays really need fall off envelopes, too. To bring them into the new world, such that we can fade them out as we like, rather than clumsily, and without having to burn a Motion Sequence to do it, which isn't even polyphonic... etc.

Jason's said most of what I'm saying, better. This is just in the hope that you'll learn to see that others see what the problems are, and that there's a language for discussing oddities that doesn't require asinine miniature and exactitude, just a quick "hey, what the hell is going on here...?" to be read and understood by a sympathetic and experienced user able to acclimatise the user to what's going on.

There's a LOT of this kind of stuff in the Montage/MODX. Hence the validity of asking "why" questions.

Part of the usability challenge with Yamaha synths through the years is how the user interface places little abstraction to the underlying hardware. Therefore, items that would be intuitive seem like reverse polish notation (are contrary to how a musician thinks).

Almost all time based parameters express things in terms of, well, time.

Unit Multiply doesn't multiply the tempo (to make it faster) - a bigger unit multiply takes longer because you're multiplying time (not tempo).

Here, we see 1.0 is a slow delay and 0.1 is a fast delay. It seems backwards because one would reasonably think "a fraction of a delay is a shorter delay -- a smaller delay". However, this again is referencing time. 1.0 time units takes longer than 0.1 units of time.

Circling back to the EQ question - there have been "better" docs for effects in the past. At least we see the block diagrams of various effects in the Yamaha MU100R (circa 1997) Sound list/midi manual. You'll see familiar effect names with nice pictures.

I took the liberty of coloring the dry path red and the wet path blue. On both L(eft) and R(ight) channels, there's a dial which is meant to indicate the mix of wet vs. dry.

The above effect is Comp Distortion which doesn't have EQ impacting the dry signal. You see there's nothing between the input signal and the dry output. So this effect - dry is the same as the input signal.

Now, check out Cross Delay:

I didn't spend as much time coloring -- but red shows the dry path. Notice the dry path has LSF and HSF (low and high shelving) which are building blocks of a 2-band EQ. In fact, the 2-band EQ picture shows [LSF]->[HSF] -- so you know this is the EQ. The picture shows everything - EQ is inserted BEFORE the dry and wet signals. Therefore, dry gets EQ'd.

The rest of the manual will give you more insight into other effects. There's no Karaoke(1,2, and 3) effects today ... and likely there are missing effects from today in the 1997 manual. However, there's lots of overlap.

Here's a link to the yamaha hosted manual:
https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/0/318070/MU100RE2.PDF

... and you'll also notice the High Damp parameter is slightly better documented in this old manual.

Normally if I have a question about something because the manual isn't clear, I'll search for just about any other Yamaha synth-like product to find what the document writers placed in those manuals.

I personally think that these block diagrams go a long way to quickly visualize what the effects are doing.