As said in the prior thread, I think custom arpeggios are the way to do this. But we'll need someone like Jason, Bill or Bad Mister to articulate the pedantry that this involves. I don't have the patience to fight with the limitations of the onboard ways of making arpeggios.

Yamaha, are you paying Bad Mister for his recent contributions to this forum? If not, get on it!

I want the arpeggio editor software that Yamaha and its partners use for creating arpeggios, complete with whatever serves as conditionality "programming". Willing to pay for it, and sign NDAs until my pen runs out of ink.

Picking up from the other thread this is an offshoot from...[quotePost id=118799]Is it possible to assign a button on the Modx to use as a MIDIHOLD button (kind of like a sustain pedal)? [/quotePost][quotePost id=118801]Why not use the sustain pedal? It works as well for external sounds as it does for internal, you can similarly have it recognized or not for each part as desired.[/quotePost][quotePost id=118819]@AnotherScott – I will definitely try that, but I am not sure if the External Organ Module recognizes a “sustain message” since it is not something that exists on a “real organ”. If that worked it would be great, but it would potentially create another problem: What if I wanted to sustain Part 3 (BASS) sometimes and other times I would like to sustain Part 2 (Lower manual). I imagine in your suggestion the sustain pedal would affect a specific part and I would not be able to change it during performance. I will definitely try it anyways.
[/quotePost]
You could possibly set up a couple of adjacent Performances in a Live Set that are identical except for that sustain pedal assignment so you could switch that function with a screen tap (though I'm not sure what would happen if you made that change while you were holding notes).

Or you could take advantage of the fact that you can actually connect two sustain pedals to the MODX, and have them set to sustain different things. Besides the standard sustain pedal jack, you can also use the Assignable Foot Switch jack for a second pedal, which will also operate as a sustain pedal if you assign it to CC 64. I've never tried it, but I think you should be able to assign either one independently to sustain whatever zones/parts you want.

When you're dealing with external gear - you're limited to what it would allow. Although there may be different, more complex, or more creative ways to accomplish this task - getting some control of NOTE OFF (or interpretation of note off) would be straightest-forwardest way to get this done.

Other suggestions have included using a sustain pedal or arpeggios. Either works and the sustain pedal suggestion is the easiest to deal with if your external gear has one module/device/"thing" (with its own sustain pedal) for bass and one module/etc (with its own sustain pedal - so this is two external pedals total) for the chords. Simple sustain pedals (the type you would minimally require for this) are just momentary switches. Any two (momentary) button piece of equipment could be used for this and maybe there's something small that has two 1/4" outputs/cables that would work as two sustain pedals. Such a device could be taped/velcro'd to the keyboard wherever you want it and would provide similar functionality as holding the ASSIGN button to do this. Only this would be a new 2-switch module sitting on top of your keyboard. I've used some of the square foot pedals as hand operating switches before. That's a way but the size is big for 2.

If you could, theoretically, have two different sustain switches for your setup (because bass and chords can have their own "pedal" ) then you could also control this with your feet by having 2 added sustain pedals. One for bass and one for chords. That's the easiest to implement (if you can) because knowing where to get these pedals is trivial (they're abundant).

Now if you wanted to use buttons on MODX to do this and not add buttons or pedals - then maybe this is possible with considerable upticks in complexity to realize the solution and maybe slight revision to the particulars of which buttons to use and how they worked.

Assign buttons cannot be made to stop sending MIDI or change how MIDI is output from a Part. Although assign buttons are programmable - the there are no destinations (actions the assign button can be assigned to) that would change messages to external controllers. So assign buttons are out.

You could use scene buttons. One scene would "sustain" pressed notes for a long time. This has been mostly described before. The rub here is that what you play while "sustained" - because you would be subject to how an arpeggio is triggered and how it responds - you need to be sure your chord timing or bass timing follows some constraints and also that you don't want any new notes here after you sustain.

And then the (scene) buttons would not act as hold-button-to-sustain. They are latching so you would change to one scene that invokes an arpeggio to "hold" a struck note for bass. Then you would have to switch to a different scene to either sustain no notes or to change from bass to chord (or vice versa) "sustains".

Alternatively, if it's mostly sustaining the bass (for example) which would help you out - then maybe start with a single sustain pedal that only affects the bass. The thought is a half solution may be incrementally better than no solution.

Thank you for all replies. Update: I was able to accomplish a "quarter solution" (not even half) - but it is in the right direction...

The Organ Module has a setting where you can decide what happens when it receives a CC64 - It can either:
a) toggle the rotor ON/OFF
b) Sustain Ch.2
c) Sustain Ch.1
d) Sustain Ch. 1 and 2

What it cannot do is sustain CH.3 (which is what I really would like to accomplish). But sustaining Ch.2 is a nice surprise... and I guess I can figure out how to make it work. I did write a post on the Crumar website and on a Crumar Facebook group.. let's see what happens.

Ps: Is there a thing such as a MIDI HOLD message?

Have a great day everybody.

[quotePost id=118847]Ps: Is there a thing such as a MIDI HOLD message? [/quotePost]
In a sense, MIDI "Note On" is essentially a Hold (for that note) until the point that you send a "Note Off" - and Sustain (CC 64) is essentially a Hold (for all notes) until the point that you release the pedal. There's no other Hold function... but since any MIDI HOLD would need a way to end the hold as well, I don't know what you'd want an additional hold function to do, that those functions don't already do...?

I think the issue here isn't that there's a MIDI function you wish existed, or an existing MIDI function that the MODX can't do... I think what you want is really the MIDI sustain pedal CC 64 function that already exists, and what you're running into is a limitation in your module's ability to recognize it.

The arpeggio idea can be made to work. In order to make controlling an arpeggio easiest, I would set the advanced feature from gate to toggle. Using toggle you have more control on when the held note starts and stops. After you enable the arpeggio the next chord or single note you play will be held. When you let go of the keys the chord or single note will continue to be "held" by the arpeggio. Pressing any piano key will stop the note(s) and you can either turn off the arpeggiator to return to normal mode or hold a different note/chord.

As alluded to, there's a catch to arming the held note. You have to press the button to enable this arpeggio before you strike the held note. You can't press the "hold-my-bass-button" as the note is sounding. Arpeggios are only triggered on note-on events and enabling an arpeggio after striking a note means the note misses the window of triggering the arp (it's too early).

Here's the general rundown to make a user arpeggio suitable for this kind of thing:

1) Use the MIDI Performance recorder or Pattern recorder. Either will work. Pattern is more complex (more menus to traverse through) but allows for easily quantizing or adjusting your recorded notes. Press the record button first then select the "Pattern" menu to get started. Or, press the record button and select the "MIDI" menu for the Performance recorder which is easier (just two screens for everything) but there are less options to edit what you have recorded.

2) Make sure the record button is flashing (armed) and play a root position C11 chord. The quality of the chord doesn't really matter - you could play a Cmaj11 or a number of other chords. I say an 11 chord so you're holding down 6 different notes simultaneously and recording those to one track. If you want to be able to play a chord with more notes, you'll have to hold down more. At some point there's a limit I'm sure. 6 is enough for most everything.

Tip: if using the pattern recorder, set to start on a keypress. Also adjust the measure length to match how long you want to record holding a chord (how long you want the arpeggiator to, at maximum, hold the chord or note for you). Also turn loop off. Also, I set the quantize value although it's not so important with start-on-keypress.

3) Hold the chord down for as many measures as you'd want the arpeggiator to, at maximum, hold the chord. You can go many measures. If you want to run through a lot of measures fast - set the tempo to a blazing speed so you don't have to wait long to run through a ton of measures. The pattern recorder will stop automatically when all measures have been recorded. The Performance recorder will need for you to press the stop button.

4) Now that you have the MIDI data recorded (and edited if you want) you're ready to convert the "song" or "pattern" into an arpeggio. For the Performance recorder you would press on the title of the song which brings up a menu including to create an Arp. For the pattern recorder, there's a button for creating an ARP.

5) Either one you're going to have one track. Set the track convert type to Org Note. Adjust the measures to match how many you recorded. Name the arpeggio something useful so you can find it. Then press the appropriate on-screen button to create the arp.

... that's it for creating an ARP that works.

Now in your Performance add an individual arpeggio matching your new user arp. Turn on Arp master and the Part's Arp switch. Change the common arpeggio settings to Hold: On, Real-Time (not measure), type should be "Sort" which is usually the default. Under advanced, set the arp to "toggle" (not gate). This is uncommon. You'll need to practice using gate but once you get the hang of it - I think you will see the benefit in this situation. Particularly in controlling when the held notes end.

Now (with the Arp turned on) you can play a single note and that single note you play is held after you let go. It's held at maximum for the amount of time you held the note when creating the arp. You won't hear a chord even though you recorded a chord. That's a good thing. Press any piano key to stop the held note earlier than the maximum. Now press two keys. These two will be held together. Be aware that the timing of the notes is critical. You can't "roll" the notes or they will not be registered all together. You need to play them simultaneously. The reason is if you "roll" the notes - that first note is alone and the arpeggiator will think you just want to hold a single note. Then when that single note is being held - you won't be able to add more notes. Not until the arpeggio ends its cycle or you stop it by pressing any piano key (toggle).

If you play 3 notes simultaneously, you get a triad held. 4 notes ... you get the picture. Up to 6.

You can use the same user arp for both the bass (non-chord) and your chord part. Since the arpeggiator will work with either depending on if you're playing (and want to hold) a single note or more than one note.

It's really a breeze to setup a simple user arpeggio like this. I think the tricky part is knowing how to best setup the arpeggio settings. There may be more to do in the way of note range adjustments - but that is relatively run of the mill. The huge complexity is in switching in and out the arpeggios I would assume using scene buttons to do this.

Thank you very much for your reply Jason. Sorry for the late response, and thank you very much for the detailed explanation. There is a world of Arpeggios out there and I haven't even scratched the surface... Thank you Jason and thank you all.

I can "see" all the possibilities...

have a great one...