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Part Insert FX Mix Level control and Gated Arpeggio Mix Level control - how?

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Rebecca Turner
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As a former MX user, now MODX, I was expecting an upgrade in control over parameters such as these. It appears that Part Insert FX can still only be On or Off without control over the mix level, making more subtle control impossible. It also appears that Gated Arpeggios don't have any means to reduce the effect mix level below 100%, a feature common even to free VST plugins such as T-Force Alpha Plus.

I would like to be mistaken - maybe there are workarounds.

 
Posted : 21/07/2022 9:59 am
Antony
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Insert FX have a Dry/Wet control... it's just labelled a bit weird. It looks like this:-

D=W means 50/50
D43>W means less Wet than Dry
D<W43 means less Dry than Wet.

I don't know about the Gated Arpeggio thingy, I never used it. Maybe someone else knows.

 
Posted : 21/07/2022 3:36 pm
Jason
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Insertion effects ...

Some insertion effects give you more control over the "mix level" and some do not. It depends on what parameters are available for each insertion effect.

Referencing Data List: https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/2/1192592/modx_en_dl_d0.pdf
And also Parameter Manual: https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/1/812531/synthesizer_en_pm_c0.pdf

Looking at the Data List ...

All effects can be Insertion except for some reverbs (HD Hall, Rev-X Hall, R3 Hall, HD Room, Rev-X Room, R3 Room, HD Plate, R3 Plate, and Space Simulator). This just tells me which effects to take a look at (page 144-145 of above doc).

The next section of the doc spells out all of the parameters of each effect. Here I can scan for Dry/Wet level. Page 146 lists the reverbs. We don't need to look at this section since it's only for the reverb block.

Page 147 starts the insertion effects. Take a look at the first block which lists "SPX Hall", "SPX Room", and "SPX Stage". Parameter number 10 is "Dry/Wet Balance". These effects allows you to adjust the mix using this parameter. You would get to the parameters by looking at the "InsA" or "InsB" menu. The "Routing" menu isn't going to have all of the effect's parameters.

All of the effects on page 147 and 148 have "Dry/Wet Balance" capabilities.

Page 149 lists flangers. I see some that have dry/wet and some that don't. I see some that have a "mix" parameter. According to the parameter manual (another doc that explains functions in more detail) - the definition of "Mix" in the context of effect parameters is:

"Mix Determines the volume of the effect sound."

Therefore, "mix" is a parameter that should do what you want for these. Still, there are some with no "mix" or "dry/wet" balance. "VCM Phaser Mono" is one such example. "VCM Phaser Stereo" is another. However, these have "Depth". Looking this parameters up in the parameter manual:

Depth Determines a specific valueβ€”usually the degree or intensity of the effectβ€”
depending on the selected Effect type.
For Space Simulator, this parameter determines the depth of the simulated
room.
For VCM Flanger, this parameter determines the Amplitude of the LFO
wave that controls the cyclic change of the delay modulation.
For Phaser Type, this parameter determines the Amplitude of the LFO
wave that controls the cyclic change of the phase modulation.

For Jazz Combo, this parameter determines the depth of chorus/vibrato.

... so I wonder if setting this to "0" means really the LFO's amplitude is literally 0 or if it's just the lowest setting that still modulates phase. This is the closest parameter to mix although probably not the same thing.

I'll stop there - but you can see that different insertion effects have different parameters. Many insertion effects allow for you to adjust the "mix". Some do not. Hopefully, applying this information above, you now have a way of better evaluating this.

In some instances, there's an effect in the same category of effect types that allows for adjusting the mix. Sometimes there isn't. I do not have any visibility into what insertion effects you're trying to use with "mix" adjustments.

It also appears that Gated Arpeggios don't have any means to reduce the effect mix level below 100%

I don't quite understand the connection between gated arpeggios and insertion effects. I'm assuming insertion effects because you didn't make a distinction. So, in that context, I don't know what the expectation is for arpeggios to do anything with effects. Also "gated" can be applied in a couple of different places in arpeggios.

For one there is the trigger type of "Gate" or "Toggle". "Gate" is the default and generally how we use arpeggios. Assuming arpeggio hold is OFF: holding down a key opens the gate and lifting up closes it. While the gate is open the Arpeggio is running. I do not see a connection to effects here.

Secondly, there are control arpeggios that can modulate CC values or assignable knobs or the assignable switches or other non-note targets (most arpeggios "play" notes -- but some, aka control arpeggios, can "play" select parameters instead). Page 142 of the data list shows some of these. "GateL1" through "GateM18" (next page has a few more). Look at the first "Gate" arpeggio - this is "GateL1". The last column ("sound type" header) shows "(CC#11) ". All of the following gate arpeggios have a ditto double-quote in this column telling you they all have the same sound type of CC#11. What this means is that the arpeggio will modulate CC 11 -- and CC 11 is a type of "volume". CC 7 and CC 11 both have impacts on volume -- no need to get into all of that.

Again, I don't see any connection to effects with respect to these two interpretations of "gated" for arpeggios.

 
Posted : 21/07/2022 4:14 pm
Antony
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Disclaimer: I have not studied every single FX on the MODX.

That said, any insertion FX I have used did not seem lacking in typical "controls".

I'll say that not all FX, typically or traditionally, have a Dry/Wet control.

Two that immediately spring to mind are Flanger and Phaser, which necessarily require equal volume Dry and Wet to set up their characteristic tones.... Comb Filtering and Notch Filtering respectively. A Dry/Wet mix control is redundant and defeats the object.

However, depending on the Flanger or Phaser model in the MODX a dry/Wet balance may be provided.

So, don't rush to judgement... because some Effects do not normally have Dry/Wet balance (think of Insertion FX as Guitar FX Pedals).

Another thing to watch out for is if these FX are used in the "Variation Effect" slot. In many cases, the Dry/Wet balance is not available. It is presumed to be 100% Wet, because it's on a Send/Return bus. The Dry Wet balance in this case is governed by the Var Send and Var Return Levels (and also the "Var to Rev" if used).

Think of Var and Rev effects as Console/Desk Studio Rack Mounts.

Something you may want to look at is that the Two Insertion FX, A and B can be routed in Parallel. In Parallel, if you Set Insert B to Thru, you have effectively created a Dry signal Path.

Example:- 2 Identical Elements, 1 is routed through Ins A (Wet), the other is routed through Ins B (Dry). You can balance Dry/Wet by adjusting the individual Element Levels relative to each other, and/or, adjust the output of Ins A, if the FX has that option (an Overdrive for example).

 
Posted : 22/07/2022 2:04 am
Rebecca Turner
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Thanks for these useful and in-depth replies about insert FX. It does still appear that Gated Arpeggios have no means to alter the depth of the gate in the way that VST plugins do, which is a shame. Anyone who has used such a plugin has used its Mix control to alter the amount of signal passing through the gate, just as many of the MODX Insert FX I now realise have a Dry/Wet level control.

 
Posted : 22/07/2022 7:36 am
Jason
Posts: 7930
Illustrious Member
 

alter the depth of the gate

Can you explain what you mean here? Do you mean opening and closing cutoff? Do you mean modulating the gate time of notes played by the arpeggiator (gate time = legato vs. staccato notes). Or is "gate" that you're referring to meaning you want to modulate the mix value itself -- meaning you want arpeggios to vary the amount of wet vs dry signal? I'm not really sure what exactly you're describing it and I think there are a few different angles you can describe this that would be more illuminating.

Arpeggios can modulate certain parameters and maybe one of those is what you're after. However, I can't tell yet because the references so far have been too vague.

Also, motion sequence is similar to arpeggios but can reach many more parameters including effects.

 
Posted : 22/07/2022 12:17 pm
Jason
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Interpreting as you want arpeggios to modulate the "mix" level of effects, you can:

1) Select the dry/wet parameter (or equiv) on the effect you want to modulate this amount and press [CONTROL ASSIGN] then spin the Super Knob to assign this to the Super Knob. You may need to adjust the curve -- motion control and control assignments is a "chapter" of the MODX's functionality to study. There are tutorials. Then once Super Knob is in control of this parameter, use Super Knob automation to modulate the parameter

2) Same as above except instead of assigning the source controller to Super Knob, assign the source controller to a Part-level MS (motion sequence) lane. Then program the MS Lane to modulate the wet/dry level

3) Same as above except instead of assigning source controller to Super Knob or MS Lane -- assign to Part-level Assignable knob 1. Now you can use an arpeggio to modulate because there are arpeggios that control assignable knob #1. Since Assignable Knob #1 has been assigned as the source to modulate Dry/Wet -- the arpeggio will now modulate the "mix" level.

There are other options that are more wasteful - but you do have many options if this is your goal.

 
Posted : 22/07/2022 12:36 pm
Antony
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I wonder if John is asking about changing Arpeggio Gate Time?

Top Panel Controls, ARP/MS Switch, Control Knob 2.

 
Posted : 22/07/2022 1:08 pm
Rebecca Turner
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No, none of you has understood what I'm after... πŸ™‚ I'm thinking of arpeggio patterns that do not contain note data but only control data. An example of the 'gated' effect is Arp Ct/Hb:GateL16. Apply that to a sustained note and voilΓ , that's what I mean. It's commonly used in Trance music. All plugins that create this, such as the aforementioned T-Force Alpha Plus, have a Mix control to adjust how much signal to let through when the gate is applied to a beat in the pattern. I've not yet got to grips with the Motion Sequencer but I suspect that it can do this very well. Am I right?

 
Posted : 22/07/2022 1:53 pm
Antony
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Envelope Follower?

Sorry. No idea what you mean.

 
Posted : 22/07/2022 2:51 pm
Dragos
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[quotePost id=117917]No, none of you has understood what I'm after... πŸ™‚ I'm thinking of arpeggio patterns that do not contain note data but only control data. An example of the 'gated' effect is Arp Ct/Hb:GateL16. [/quotePost]
You might want to re-read @Jason's post above.

 
Posted : 22/07/2022 3:09 pm
Jason
Posts: 7930
Illustrious Member
 

I seemed to hit what you mean by my first response.

Secondly, there are control arpeggios that can modulate CC values or assignable knobs or the assignable switches or other non-note targets (most arpeggios "play" notes -- but some, aka control arpeggios, can "play" select parameters instead). Page 142 of the data list shows some of these. "GateL1" through "GateM18" (next page has a few more). Look at the first "Gate" arpeggio - this is "GateL1". The last column ("sound type" header) shows "(CC#11) ". All of the following gate arpeggios have a ditto double-quote in this column telling you they all have the same sound type of CC#11. What this means is that the arpeggio will modulate CC 11 -- and CC 11 is a type of "volume". CC 7 and CC 11 both have impacts on volume -- no need to get into all of that.

Since you didn't seem to react to this I started digging more into trying to understand. So lets rewind.

If a gated arpeggio identical to GateL1-GateM18 and beyond then you can use these arpeggios. You would change the arpeggio from "sort" to "direct" and the arpeggio would do its thing on the current Part. As the data list shows - this modulates CC 11 which is related to volume.

Or you could use motion sequence (MS Lanes or Super Knob automation) to modulate volume.

Or you could use an LFO to modulate volume.

Or you setup a source-destination pair that targets volume as the destination and the source itself can be modulated by an arpeggio that modulates the source controller (such as the arpeggios that control assignable knobs).

Or you could create a user arpeggio that modulates CC 11 like you want to if you want a different pattern than the stock arpeggios. I haven't tried recording CC11 - but other CCs (that arpeggios can modulate) can be recorded to produce user (meaning custom) arpeggios.

So the front-door request that arpeggios themselves do this is already built-in. You can use this. Or you can use one of the other numerous ways that arrive at this same destination.

Volume can also be automatically modulated by another sound source. Either coming from the keyboard itself (some Part) or from an external source (A/D Input L/R). Envelope follower can be used and then used as a source with a destination of volume. There are also effects that include a built-in modulator that you can tie to some Part's output. That's a different way to establish automation in the volume modulation (ducking, or whatever you want to call it).

 
Posted : 23/07/2022 12:04 am
Rebecca Turner
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Topic starter
 

Thanks Jason, I didn't quite get part of your earlier reply. There's plenty of scope on the MODX to do what I'm after here, probably best using the Motion Sequencer which has a huge amount of control available. I'll see what happens!

 
Posted : 24/07/2022 9:37 am
Antony
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I guess we'll never know exactly what John was describing.

Since he mentioned Trance Music, I would suggest the Envelope Follower would provide the best results.

Pump that beat!!

 
Posted : 25/07/2022 10:00 am
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