This does my head in. Same experience... sometimes, with MODX. Never with any other keyboard or any other MIDI device connected to a DAW.

And seen this in more than one DAW with the MODX.

It's MADenning!

Bill, look at this line:

" It's NOT my PC, it's NOT my rig, It's NOT me, its a setting within the MODX."

This is likely a response to reading several of the online (particularly in this forum) obfuscations that attempt to auto/reflexively divert from this particularly vexing issue, primarily by a fraternity of commentators that tend to presume simple mistakes by beginners rather than realise this might be being questioned by folks with enough experience to have already triaged the issue before posting.

There is/are three determinants and causes of this, that I know of, but I think there's more to this issue with volume controls:

- sometimes, somehow either interpreted and/or presumed, the MODX imagines it should have been sent volume changes by the DAW - that the MODX then responds to - can happen during mid timeline stop/starts, pause/starts, stop playback begin record, or full stop, full rewind and start/rec from beginning. This is the worst of them.

- some other issues occur with recorded actual volume changes that are sometimes (not always) sent at record time by the MODX, and sometimes not. And these are sometimes not consistently responded to when going back to playback and/or during playback.

- a setting inside some DAWs sends something that is interpreted as a volume reset of some sort, that is almost always maxing the volume of Parts (more than one). This is almost always seen at the beginning of tracks and/or MIDI segments, so is the easiest to spot behaving, and then requires some investigation to find the controller (CC) doing it. This is the least frequent.

All of these can happen (and frequently do) in an otherwise perfectly fine template of MIDI and tracks that are purpose built for MODX, that might (other times) work perfectly.

Aside from DAW MIDI rolls being an absolutely infuriating pain ALL the time, this is the worst aspect of using a DAW with the MODX.

Need a few more bits of information:

What Performances are being used? If there is pre programmed control set to the assignables/Super Knob this could be the problem. A good test to see what's happening is to used the Performance "Multi/GM" as a starting point and monitor if the volume issues happen with Performance with not additional controller assignments.

When I use MONTAGE/MODX with a DAW and want to use it as a standard TG I often start with the "Multi/GM" Performance and create the ensemble from there. I'll delete all unused control that might come in with a single added part...say I start with Multi/GM, change the parts to bass, keys, pads, etc., and build my underlying groove first. When I'm building the Performance like this with single Parts I always keep a look out for control. Also, the "Param. with part" feature in Part category search allows you to select what comes in with the Part you are adding when building a multi Performance. Deselecting those can give you a "cleaner" part with out mixing, arps, motion sequences or scenes that may have been programmed with the sound.

I'm not denying that the unwanted change could be generated by MODX. There are lots of controller sets in most of the Performances. Removing them from the Parts (Edit - Part - Control Assign, then touch "auto select" and move the assignables to see what has been set there. Then I just touch "Delete" in the lower right corner) can fix odd behavior many times.

MONTAGE/MODX is designed to function in a variety of ways within a single mode with lots of control options, effects, arps, simultaneous control of Parts, etc. Because of this working with it in a traditional multitimbral way can be a bit of a challenge, especially if you want to do a quick traditional pop tune with keys, guitar, bass, drums but start with a Performance like "Seattle Sections" and start changing things from there.

So, if you (David that is, the initial poster) tell me what Performances you are using in your project I can talk a look and see if I can replicate the behavior and offer a solution. (although i don't have ProTools...only Cubase and Logic, but I think the overall workflow will translate).

Thank you all for you're awesome responses, this seems to be the problem: From BLAKE "What Performances are being used? If there is pre programmed control set to the assignables/Super Knob this could be the problem".

When I disable "program change", the volume perfectly matches the protools DAW levels, problem solved BUT, then I cannot change the instrument patched within protools because the MODX won't received them because I disabled the "program change" feature!!?? That means, I would have to go in the keyboard and change the sounds per track AND save them as a song so the keyboard will remember the patches. Don't have the time to use the Fred Flisntone way of choosing sounds...

So, I read, I will have to disable the "volume" SW in the Part settings->mod control-Recv SW, in that common settings area.
SO, I disable "volume/exp" but when I hit PLAY, the setting automatically enables itself!

SO, here is where I am at, how do I find the volume control that is assigned in the "SUPER KNOB" so it will not transmit the CC to control the volume?

Warning, RANT: :p Layer upon layer upon layer of settings, the Yamaha engineers have found a way to destroy a user friendly interface, who gives you 22 CC parameter choices to enable or disable under the part control and tie it into a "superknob" where the contol settings manipulated are burried in another world of it's own? Wow, I am without words... 🙂

Arrangers and sound engineers don't have time to figure out complex layered menus, hours dedicated to breaking down the complexities of signal flow and settings that translate into hours lost for creativity, schedules and deadlines?? I'm only saying this because I can plug in 10 other yamaha, Roland, Korg keys in protools midi and they will work perfectly, sadly, this is not the case with the Modx.
Maybe next time. 🙂

Godspeed to all! and Thanks.

@Bill, you're coming from the assumption that it's perfectly solvable. That with enough detective work a way will be discerned. The Yamaha Way™.

Due to driver and windows and Daw updates, and the ghosts in the machine of MODX MIDI... and how late Yamaha is with its own updates, it is never a complete flowchart.

Which is only part of the problem. There also seems to be an issue with the direction of the wind, too. Sometimes it all just goes to crap (the three ways I've listed in the previous post the most common ways I've seen this), even in a previously perfectly functioning DAW project.

And it's safer to assume that david is only initially asking the question "am I insane, or is this device very poorly integrated with MIDI?", not attempting to write a perfect StackOverflow question for upvotes.

He's not insane. And only beginning the journey into how odd some of the designs and implementations of thoroughfares are within it. If he's in the window to get it refunded, before he finds out about the Part LFO not saving user defined curves, having no undo/redo, templates being destructive buttons right under your new curve and that it couldn't even be copied to or from another Part...

@david, if you're not super into FM, don't get completely jazzed by the guitars and brass of the MODX, or aren't completely in love with one of its pianos AND you want to do something moderately work related to deadlines and with objectives that aren't shiftable...

...then you probably will never have sufficient patience to put up with The Yamaha Way™ as it pertains to this device.

There's a lot more gotchas, caveats and byzantine labyrinths than what you've found so far.

Probably worth a look:
https://gearspace.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/1330027-montage-modx-current-former-owners-what-s-your-opinion-now.html

As is this vid:

https://youtu.be/89P_uqcSHrA

I'm lucky. For me, I'm the unofficial keyboard tech for my daughter, and come from a long period of tech design, which makes using this device a bit of a comedic infuriation experience, as I'll do my best for daughter (motivation) and have never seen anything designed quite like this before, wherein I'm constantly amazed (the comedy), but time is always limited (the fury).

If you don't want to disable MODX to ignore PC then don't disable this. Instead, remove unwanted program changes from the source. It seems there are PCs coming across when you don't want them which will end up loading up the Part with a new so called "Performance (Single Part) ". And, in doing so, the original volume of the loaded Part will undo any volume setting previously accomplished on that MIDI channel.

Blocking PCs seems to be a sledgehammer that helps in some ways, but hurts in others. Knowing that PC messages are the culprit, this can help right-size the master's output.

So, I read, I will have to disable the "volume" SW in the Part settings->mod control-Recv SW, in that common settings area.
SO, I disable "volume/exp" but when I hit PLAY, the setting automatically enables itself!

It's fairly rare you'd want to disable this. This also will prevent the sliders from changing volume. If this setting is "re-enabling" then the issue is back to a PC, I would presume. Because the setting doesn't re-enable itself. However, if you load in a different Part by sending MODX a PC on that MIDI Channel - then your settings will be pulled in from the Part which is addressed by the PC. And this Part, I would bet, has its Vol/Exp receive switch turned on.

If you really do want to load new Parts into your Performance dynamically - then use MSB/LSB plus PC and load in User Bank Parts. Then you could set the receive Vol/Exp switch off - if that's really what you want - on the Performance's 1st Part that you are asking MODX to recall into the given Part (MIDI channel). Turning Vol/Exp receive shouldn't be necessary, though.

SO, here is where I am at, how do I find the volume control that is assigned in the "SUPER KNOB" so it will not transmit the CC to control the volume?

1) Select a Part by touching it from the [PERFORMANCE] (HOME) screen
2) Touch "Edit"
3) Navigate to the "Mod/Control" -> "Control Assign" menu
4) Make sure "Auto Select" (upper left) is selected and green (not gray).
5) Spin super knob ("Display Filter" should show SuperKnob now)
6) Look for "Volume" under destination - if there are multiple pages make sure to press ">" next to the page to go to the next page(s).
7) If found, press "Volume" destination to select then, to remove, press "Delete" in the lower-right.
8) Repeat for all steps 1-7 for all Parts if you're looking to remove all.

Jason, I think you're making the same mistake as Bill... going for specificity when the examples david is giving are merely those he can be bothered pointing out, after what must be approaching 20 hours of experimentation, and possibly another 10 reading and thinking about it from various perspectives.

It's safe to say that anyone using the kinds of critical tones and rhetorical devices he is has some history problem solving and is now somewhat aware of (and amazed by) the "design" of the MODX and its MIDI "affordances".

He has probably even already solved a dozen problems during that time, and come to realise there is no logic to it all. I wouldn't be surprised if he's thinking, like me, that it wasn't designed for end users, it was designed to make it easier to code functionality that fit a checklist at the cost of ease of use, predictability, discovery and joy. At a certain point, he has to compromise on his time and output with this device to get consistent behaviour (which he seems unwilling to do, justly so) or compromise device/brand and get something that plays better with a DAW and PC.

Ok, I'm sorry, I'll try to explain in layman terms or more comprehensively.

1. DAW Protools: MIDI controller
2. MODX: Midi Device 1 for my sounds
3. 16 Channel song with 16 instruments 1-16 on protools through MIDI only
4. Setup-MIDI to record to DAW (All MIDI-no audio)
5. I hit play, all 16 channels of selected instruments play through MIDI arranged notes that I made or recorded, I MIX volumes in PROTOOLS, set them all.
6. I hit Stop protools
7. When I hit PLAY on protools again to mix, ALL my volumes are out of wack
8. When I check the Common MIX screen on part 1-16 all the faders where adjusted to whatever the MODX felt like adjusting to when I hit play...

IF, I disable program change, then do steps 1-8 again
1. DAW Protools: MIDI controller
2. MODX: Device 1 for my sounds
3. 16 Channel song with 16 instruments 1-16 on protools
------------------------------
5. I hit play all 16 channels of selected instruments play, I MIX volumes in PROTOOLS, set them all.
6. I hit Stop protools
7. When I hit PLAY on protools again to mix, ALL my volumes are Perfect

BUT...although I Protools gain the absolute control of the volume fader (because the MODX has program change disabled), I loose the advantage of being able to change sounds through the patches on the DAW, protools.

It comes down to 2 choices,
1. complete volume control at all times but no patch selecting on my DAW (program change off)
2. Patch select per channel (program change enabled) on my DAW but failed volume control on my DAW thanks to the CC volume control, being controlled and changed by the superknob when I hit playback from my DAW.

JASON suggests:

1) Select a Part by touching it from the [PERFORMANCE] (HOME) screen
2) Touch "Edit"
3) Navigate to the "Mod/Control" -> "Control Assign" menu
4) Make sure "Auto Select" (upper left) is selected and green (not gray).
5) Spin super knob ("Display Filter" should show SuperKnob now)
6) Look for "Volume" under destination - if there are multiple pages make sure to press ">" next to the page to go to the next page(s).
7) If found, press "Volume" destination to select then, to remove, press "Delete" in the lower-right.
8) Repeat for all steps 1-7 for all Parts if you're looking to remove all.

I think Jason has the solution, I will try it tomorrow. I'm so sorry I have you guys spending your time to assist me, I am super gratefull but accept my apologies.

Nahh, no mistake. I'm focusing my attention on the question asked of where David is stuck rather than getting bogged down in disparaging dialog. When I want help I don't really want to hear how I'm helpless. I'd rather get help.

The problems with PC are a different thing - I may have helped or not. I think the lightbulb will go off when some of these other issues are cleared and more confidence is achieved because shifting sand (or the feeling that it is) is not a place where forward progress is likely to be made no matter what approach support may take.

At any rate, I'm happy to help. None of this sounds unfamiliar. I do think some of these repeating themes should inform R&D (hopefully though a side-channel from the forum admins) that the support burden would be lower if usability improvements could help make self-serving more obvious. Last sentence intentionally a little vague because it extends further than topics raised here.

I think Jason has the solution, I will try it tomorrow. I'm so sorry I have you guys spending your time to assist me, I am super gratefull but accept my apologies.

Given your statements about PC being an issue here, although you asked about Super Knob assignments (and you have a few answers) - dealing with Super Knob isn't going to fix the issues you experience from PC. Those issues you can clear up by filtering PC at the Part level (more as a debug step, but not a real solution) would need to have the DAW's side remove (unintended) PCs. That's the cleanest solution. Or send MSB+LSB+PC messages for a Part that has the volume initialized to a value you desire.

When you issue a PC on a given MIDI channel, assuming you are not sending a multi-Part Performance change (which would replace the entire Performance) then what's going to happen is the volume that is programmed into the requested Part you are recalling using PC will become the volume since you would be asking MODX to recall another Part with volume settings and all.

One solution to this provided is, if you do want to use PC, is to ensure you recall from the User Bank your own custom Part. This would require sending MSB/LSB and PC together so you select the desired User Performance (and Part 1 of that Performance would be recalled into the Part that matches the MIDI Channel used for these messages). Your User Bank Performance would have the desired volume programmed in that you want to initialize when the Part is recalled.

I'm (sadly) experienced enough with PC and MODX and MIDI and multiple DAWs to know that any fix-it for this is going to be temporary (due to the fallibilities listed, and others unknown), and come with limits and compromises, too, such that david will have to compromise and limit his workflows to that which works with the MODX rather than that which he's become accustomed to with other MIDI gear.

... setting expectations is a responsibility I take seriously 😉

This is the problem with creating general capabilities without focusing on fronting and easing the common, ideally to the point of them being automagical.

Domain specific languages are dead, and now common sense favourings of the common are, too.

Yamaha had a truly unique opportunity to make the Montage/MODX act like (and be) a 16 part VST/Plugin, and didn't even seem to see that, at all.

And that's just talking about the recording and playback tightness between it and a DAW. Something like how well the now ancient Waldorf Blofeld worked in multi-mode, but native to a DAW as a VST to call up for any channel/part/track. Dreamy.

When it comes to sound and motion design... what a world we could have had... if only the VST/Plugin interfaced with the sounds... that'd take us from 4 Motion Sequences to near infinite amounts of it. Instead... CC lanes. How fun.

Ok, thank you all, this is the fix just for the MODX because my Juno DS and Yamaha MX work PERFECT with my current protools setup, the bad boy here is the MODX.

1. I will leave the "program change" on when I create songs via MIDI because this will allow me to select the sound (patches) at the DAW level within protools. Once I create the song and all my sounds are assigned to each MIDI channel and I am ready to mix
2. I will DISABLE "program change" JUST for the MODX. By disabling the setting AFTER I create the song will allow me to keep the patches (sounds) in place AND allow me to mixdown without the MODX interfering with all my volume faders.

It is sad but what can I do. The MODX was created with the fllaw of driving all the MIDI CC through the Super knob. All the CC settings and control features in the MODX menu are purposles because the super knob will enable them all with the touch of "play" in protools.

BUT, since I need all of MODX sounds to go to the next level of pro audio sounds, I will keep it.

P.S. I hope Yamaha can create the next gen synth without disrupting the MIDI CC signal flow from the controler to the device.
The MX88 works perfect, the Roland Juno DS works perfect but the MODX does not, I give it an "F" for MIDI applications.
BUT, I will always love the quality and products of Yamaha, they have been embeded in my 20+ years of professional sound engineering.

You all should hear a SALSA I created with the MX, you would NEVER believe it's MIDI, that's how good Yamaha is with their sounds.

Lord bless you all, please take care in these perilous times!

If you know Super Knob is steering Volume and you don't want that - then remove these Volume destinations.

@David

Probably not going to help but have you tried using the Montage daw remote control settings? And then using Track or Transport? How about checking zone settings? Also if you have loaded up the Connect vst that could be messing you up if its set to auto sync. Just some things to eliminate.

Another thing I would try is checking out each tracks monitoring setting. These are things I would look at closely. I even remember having some issue in FL Studio in the past and found out I had accidentally recorded in automation to the track that I couldnt see.