Hello - My little mixer is out of its depth these days, being 24 years old, and I'm in the process of upgrading. However, I don't understand enough about these things to be sure of any decision - for example, BM tells me the input level of my existing mixer is -10dB and I need more than that for today's synths, especially Montage. OK - but huh?

Since I don't know exactly what mixer you own, I just posted an educated guess that it's RCA inputs we're looking for consumer level signal... I recommended you set your Montage Output accordingly. The Output Level on the Montage can be set for a wide array of use scenarios. You simply need to educate yourself on level matching, gain staging, and a few things about specifications.

When you are having to use adapters or special cables to make things work, it is always best to do some investigating. By setting the MAIN L&R Output to -6dB you are putting your Montage at a level that the typical consumer level product is designed to handle. That's what's important on the specification end.

So far as I can see, mixers do just that - they mix a number of inputs down to one output.

I can see my audio mentors cringing 🙂
Mixers have a utility function of getting multiple inputs down to a single stereo output, but there is more to it than that... particularly where music is involved.

Sure the mixer's utility function is solving the inputs to Output issue. It is designed to pass signal, matching levels etc... but there are two categories of doing this: passing the signal properly, of course, but then there are mixers that enhance your signal.

GIGO is a common acronym in audio... garbage in garbage out - well, the Montage is arguably among the best sounding synthesizer's ever (and to even be in the conversation is awesome, whether you agree or disagree)... so you can only degrade the sound by what you connect it to... get a mixer that performs the utility tasks but also offers you something in terms of enhancing the signal path.

I have not found any that have two outputs, one for balanced leads, and another for unbalanced. I infer from this that it doesn't matter -

It matters... you obviously have not looked at the Yamaha MG and MGP mixers, yet, then. Because they feature such arrangements of output options

In doing your research, learn about connectors, learn about levels. Learn about MIC input and LINE level inputs. Envision that your mixer can not only solve issues of connectivity, but it's very important that in doing so it can improve your audio situation. Your system will be only as strong as the weakest link in the chain (I think you've already experienced a bit of that first hand).

Please read up on MG10, MG12..., the MG series mixers feature three and four stereo channels, respectively, ideal for keyboards, etc metal chassis means it travels well... the MGP consoles, ideal for installations and larger situations, etc., if you have specific questions, let us know.

Hello BM, and thanks for response. On a Sunday, too! I did look at the Yamaha MG12XU among several, but it's 3 times the price of the Behringer and a similar spec - I had to look at the MG12 because Yamaha insist on 4 mic inputs, which are totally wasted on me, so the MG10XU wouldn't do as I need 4 stereo inputs. Which the Behringer XENYX 1002FX has, as it cuts the mic inputs down to 2 and keeps the 4 stereo inputs. I have been reading specs and reviews, and am more confused than ever! I know a little about Mic and Line levels, but Mics are lost on me anyway, and there is no emphasis whatsoever on separating balanced and unbalanced inputs and having two outputs - nothing. For example, you say the difference does matter (and I greatly respect your opinion) but Behringer say that whereas there are theoretical advantages, in real terms it doesn't matter! No wonder I'm confused! Several makes say that the inputs can be either TS or TRS, which can only mean they do not consider it important. Not a single manufacturer ,mentions having two outputs to cater for different inputs, and a separate output would have to be linked to a specific input to be of any use. Mind you, I'm only looking at the lower size/price range (under €500 - amazing what they can do for the money - and the Behringer is barely €100!).

So right now I'm no further forward, except that I propose to upgrade my old Chesley MK67T (I mentioned that somewhere!), and can plug the Korg and Tyros into whatever that upgrade will be, with improvement. Maybe the Montage too - experiment is called for there. If that doesn't work, I can simply revert to direct TRS connections with the Alesis monitors, and run the rest on the Sony monitors, as I'm doing now with the old Chesley hanging in there.

Apart from that, my wife is now complaining of being a 'Montage Widow' as I spend too much time down in my tiny music room.Married would-be buyers should be aware of that fact ...

Hi,

I don't know the Behringer directly but I have the Mackie Mix 8 which is similar in concept (BTW: I can recommend the Mackie, it has very nice sound quality for the price, although a lot less features than the Behringer. I read in tests that the Mackie has better sound than the Behringer, though...).

Basically the Mackie has inputs which you can either use balanced or unbalanced. If you use the normal instrument cables (TS), then it is just an unbalanced input. If you use balanced cables (TRS), then it is a balanced input. Similar for the output. The mixer automatically copes for that. It is wired such that all combinations of balanced / unbalanced inputs and balanced / unbalanced outputs will work fine.

Both balanced and unbalanced work fine for me in most circumstances. I don't feel that the balanced ones give you generally better audio quality. However, I had situations where using a pretty long TS cables in an environment which had lots of electromagnetic waves floating around (read: stage 🙂 ) lead to bad noise, hum and similar. Switching to a TRS cable did get rid of the noise completely.

Many synthesizers / keyboards only have unbalanced outputs (for example the Nord keyboards). There's nothing wrong with that. When connecting to a PA for a gig the mixer will use a DI box in that case - using relatively short TS cables towards the DI box. After the DI box it's balanced all the way to the mixer, which can be tens of meters away from the stage. This avoids a lot of problems on the signal path. The Montage (like my Roland Integra 7) fortunately has the TRS outputs. So I just use TRS->XLR cables to the stage box and we can spare the DI box - avoiding cost and a potential source of sound quality degradation. So it is a very nice feature to have balanced outputs but it's not vital.

In most cases if your mixer is close to the synth (like at your house probably), unbalanced should be totally fine. But balanced never hurts, of course.

Just a note: Don't feel tempted to use the XLR inputs on the mixer for the Montage. They are mic inputs, only, needing a different level. Connecting to them will degrade the sound quality in my experience. At least with the Mackie.

Hello Stefan, I looked at a couple of Mackies too, the MX8 comes to mind, but they didn't have enough stereo inputs in my price range! What you say and what I have read today agree that TS and TRS leads can be mixed without marked loss of quality in the sound - using just one TS lead in 4 cancels out the advantage of TRS altogether - but with an up-to-date mixer that shouldn't be noticeable. I'll be finding out within the next week or so if that is true or not! Thanks for tip re: the Mic inputs - it's not a mistake I'll be making though! Now I've got through the agonising - very properly initiated by BM - I'm looking forward to it, win or lose. As is said - hope for the best - but prepare for the worst!

Just because a mixer has XLR jacks does not make it an appropriate input for your balanced synthesizer output. Again, learn the difference between a MIC input and one rated for MIC/LINE inputs. In general, you get what you pay for.

I would want to get a mixer that has balanced and unbalanced ("guitar" inputs). The outputs do not have to be unbalanced - although usually there are various options here as well including RCA for attaching a low-end recording device for a scratch recording.

MIC and Line inputs are summarized here: http://blog.shure.com/whats-the-difference-between-line-and-mic-levels/

Some mixers have multiple sets of outputs. They generally call theses buses. I would think you would not need more than a single bus.

The MG10XU or a mixer of similar capabilities would be perfect for what you need. 5 sets of stereo inputs. 2 sets of stereo input are balanced - the rest are unbalanced. Mackie has a better mousetrap at least in that its 1/4 inch inputs are balanced or unbalanced (Line or MIC switchable). On a budget, dropping some features - the MG10 is viable just dropping some USB feature and effects. I like the connectors Yamaha uses since you can stick a 1/4" in the middle or use an XLR - which saves space on the mixer not having to have another connector.

The Behringer XENYX X1204USB has a nice set of features although it gets "maxed out" if you're using 4 stereo pairs. Line 5/6, 7/8 are nice as you can push-button select the dB input gain to match (-10dB or +4dB). On the cheap is the XENYX 1202FX Mixer.

I always wanted to get a VLZ (Mackie) - but the Mackie Mix12FX looks fine and is in the general price range of others listed above. Like Behringer, this has input gain switches on the line-input-only channels (5/6, 7/8, 9/10, 11/12). Inputs all accept balanced or unbalanced. The 1st 4 channels have a wider input gain stage so you can boost/trim with greater flexibility.

Not much of the hows and whys are going to make sense if you do not brush up on some basics.

At some point, you had to learn putting a glass traditional 100W light bulb in a tiny plastic desk lamp would melt the plastic. So although bright, 100W translates to heat which is incompatible with fixtures without proper ventilation and or using low-temp (melting point) materials. Also, you learned that more watts (in a bulb) means more power while its on - so that was something to balance when making a purchase decision.

Likewise in the audio world - there are a few key concepts to understand and apply when making tradeoffs of what makes sense to purchase as a mixer.

If you get a full-featured boards with all connector options (XLR, TRS, TR, balanced/unbalanced), buttons, switches, and knobs for every parameter - then such a flexible mixer may cost a lot - but would have you covered. Generally, a mixer will have a minority of "full featured" channels - then more channels with fixed properties (pan is full L or full R, connector type is 1/4" only, assuming line-in only, etc).

Hello Jason - you can understand my confusion, perhaps! For example, mixers seem to offer -10dB or +4dB as options for inputs, but the Montage puts out -6dB, 0dB, +6dB, and +12dB. ... nothing matches! To a rank amateur like me, that means confusion! I grasp the difference between 'MIC' level and 'LINE' level (mics are of zero interest to me, so I discard all 'mic' references as irrelevant to me). Similarly, 'USB' is of no interest, as I do not have a DAW nor intend to get one as I have no use for them. Now I find that 'TRS' does not necessarily mean 'balanced' (BM did mention this) which increases the chaos further - although the Behringer XENYX 1002FX accepts TRS leads, all the inputs and outputs are unbalanced.

Complete shambles.

So I am going to do nothing. My Montage is connected directly to the main monitors, so balanced throughout, and my venerable Chesley mixer manages the Korg and the Tyros with no apparent strain via the auxiliary monitors, unbalanced throughout. It is undoubtedly of -10dB standard, so I'll see if I can vary the outputs on the Korg and the Tyros to get closer to that.

My thanks to all - I thought my requirements were simple, but apparently not! But I have saved over a hundred quid!

Manual shows 1002FX line inputs are all balanced and also accept unbalanced. Output shows as balanced.

I'm not going to look up the main output specs for Montage and not everything is always documented, but the output level should be at a nominal level (probably not unity) and then the output trim/boost options are offsets from nominal.

I just bought the Allen and Heath ZED 14 "manufacturer refurbished" or "B stock" on ebay GOOD AS BRAND NEW for under $300. It beat everything I compared it to. Read the sound on sound review. The line inputs give you 10 to 30khz frequency range. It's specs were comparable to the $1,000 units. It has (4) stereo inputs on the line inputs. I don't need the high end mic inputs so there's no reason to pay more for those. I think they also have a ZED 12, 16, 18, 22 and 24. I love the XLR inputs as they don't ground out when plugging and unplugging but they are only used for mic inputs normally and adapted for mic input requirements. My Yamaha CP1 has XLR quality outputs. I like them much better. Beware not to turn on phantom power if you have equipment attached to the mic inputs. The ZED accepts both balanced and unbalanced. I thought I read that the Yamaha mixers (consumer end products) did not have balance 1/4" line inputs. I could be wrong. Yamaha also spends money adding the compression feature which my synths don't need.

What does this mean? -6dB, 0dB, +6dB, and +12dB for Montage VS -10dB/+4dB. Millions of synths have been plugged into mixers in our lifetime and I'm sure almost none of them have matched. Does Yamaha even match the Montage to their own line of mixers? Seems like if you stay under the threshold on the mixer then you're good. Can anyone explain this better?

Then, say I've got 6 synths all plugged into the same mixer. Of course most are going to be mismatched if not all. If you look at your mixer's suggested hookup diagram it shows synths connected into the line inputs and probably doesn't have a mismatch warning asterisk anywhere on the page.

The ZED14 gives a range for the line input but that's in "dBu"s. It's not a direct relationship to dB looking at the calculations. Says this: dBu is reference to 0.775 Vrms across 600 ohms. The range listed is from (+10 to -26 dBu) for the mono jack sockets and (0 nominal for the stereo jacks) (Control = off to +10dB) .

Hold tight. I have an electrical engineer in my office. I will confirm.

Hello david - I haven't got a clue! I figured to buy an up to date mixer and plug everything in, end of story. Not that simple, although of course it ought to be. I have relented in that I've ordered up a 'low-end' Behringer XENYX 1202FX in that effects on the Tyros and Korg aren't too easy to apply on the fly, so to speak. Nor on the Montage. come to that - I'll give that a try too (carefully!). I actually wanted the XENYX 1002FX, but there was such a kerfuffle getting my invoice in Sterling and not Euros that I bought what I'd first ordered - I'll just tape up the mic inputs to avoid mistakes! As to dB specs, good luck! Amazes me that these guys don't talk to one another to find out what each are doing - but if a 24 year old long-out-of-production mixer can handle my Korg and Tyros, then I expect better from the XENYX ... or at least, no worse! Find out later this week ...

The thing is that it will still work but what issue does the mismatch create? Does it cause excessive noise in the outputs? Does it cause damage to the circuits over time? The whole purpose of a mixer is to receive various inputs to mix. The manufacturer knows that all sorts of input voltages exist on a wide variety of electronic instruments. If they aren't concerned about it (if it was important to them staying in business) then every voltage type possible would be selectable on their mixer. Since no one offers these many options then it must not really be important, else they would be out of business.

David,

The voltage matching mechanism in mixers is the input gain adjustment. Full-featured mixers will have an analog-ish (either actually analog or a high-resolution digital "equivalent") knob which will rotate through a wide range of levels. Mid-range mixers will have some channels with such a knob and then buttons for the rest. The buttons will give you 2 or 3 options of fixed gain levels (as if perhaps the virtual knob was fixed at 9 o'clock when switch is not pressed and 3 o'clock when pressed). Then value mixers will not have options and will fix the various inputs to gain levels that target a certain use case or common standard that works for the target consumer.

So, in general, I would say that mixers have this as one of the first things you would be touching/adjusting as an audio engineer. The consequence of having a mismatch would be a faint sound ("no sound") or, on the other end, distortion/clipping.

If the signal is too low and you compensate by adjusting the output level - then your signal to noise ratio will be poor. Your signal may be so low that your noise is nearly at the same level. Then when you amplify this too-low-level signal, you amplify the noise too. This is true even if your signal is at the right level (just at the clipping threshold) - that increasing the output level/gain will amplify the noise. However, when the signal is at the right level - the noise is in the basement and the signal is far away in the 10th story penthouse suite. So turning up the output level will bring the noise to perhaps the 1st floor and signal to the roof - the noise isn't close enough to the signal to be distracting/noticed because the (desired) signal will be drowning out the noise that got amplified.

So above, too little signal means you will probably compensate by turning up the output which makes you have loud noise as a major component of the signal. The other extreme is if your (desired) signal is so high it's in orbit instead of the 10th floor. The consequence is that the signal itself manifests noise because the internal pathways (internal to the mixer) cannot contain so much signal. What ends up happening is distortion which sounds like its own form of noise. This noise follows the signal while the previous noise is more-or-less constant and doesn't change much as the desired signal changes. The detail of what happens with this lack of containing your signal (so parts of the signal get thrown overboard) will depend somewhat on the architecture of the mixer. As digital vs. analog will distort in slightly different ways. However, a mixer is never really the spot where one would want to manifest distortion as an effect - so it doesn't really matter that the distortion could be one way or another. They're both out-of-line and corrected by using the input gain - however that is set.

Montage allows for offsetting the output (either trim or boost) - so the instrument plugged into the mixer may be able to make adjustments even further upstream. If you do not have to use this feature of Montage (or other instruments) - then don't. Leave it to the mixer. Set the Montage to a 0dB offset if you can.

Hello Jason - and hey! That all made sense! Best explanation for me anyway! Basically, cheap mixers need cheap synths, and expensive synths demand expensive mixers. My main aim is to handle my Korg and Tyros at least as well, and retire my old Chesley - the headphone monitor output has packed up anyway, and the single microphone input hasn't worked for years! Not that that has ever bothered me anyway, but enough is enough. Not that I'd call either the Korg or the Tyros "cheap" - that still puzzles me, but I get the drift!