This isn't going to help your deadline - but do understand the buffer size which adjusting affects latency are both concepts related to the audio path - not MIDI. MIDI has relatively very little data to transfer, so we do not generally concern ourselves with latency in the MIDI domain. You say there are no audio tracks recorded - so I'm assuming your issue has no audio components which, if used, would be related to the latency values.

Where the buffer size and latency would matter would be if you're using Montage as an audio interface for the VSTi sounds - here the audio path would be used and latency would apply to the VSTi audio output.

I have to assume what is out of sync is between all Montage sounds and all VSTi sounds. You don't really explain what is out of sync. I'm assuming if guitar and bass are both played by the Montage - then these sounds are all in sync relative to each other. This could be wrong - there do not seem to be the specifics enough to nail down.

As far as I can tell, MIDI Sync = MIDI, Clock Out = OFF is appropriate.

https://www.yamahasynth.com/montage-category/montage-midi-settings-explained

Details such as which device is the sound interface for your VSTi is not detailed. How you're listening to Montage sounds is not detailed (local monitoring or audio output through the USB).

Hi Jason, there are no audio tracks recorded but I have been monitoring audio of external instruments (synced up with Sync Gen via MIDI cable) through my UR824 AI directly Using ASIO Direct monitoring, so audio latency is pretty much non-existent. As a matter of fact all external instruments maintain perfect sync, but Montage MIDI parts (Organ, bass, pad, guitar) all fall out of sync after listening to a 33 bar loop from the project a few times. Yes, Montage parts stay in sync relative to each other, but not to the rest of the project. I am currently monitoring a stereo channel for the Montage summed parts using only my UR824-I am not using Montage's AI at all. To clarify- I have the left and right analog outputs of Montage plugged in left and right analog jacks of my UR824. In Cubase I have an input bus set up to receive the audio signal which I monitor directly through the hardware-preventing any noticeable latency, as I had mentioned. Each Part of the Montage performance is on its own MIDI channel in Cubase.
As an experiment I activated the metronome in Cubase and muted all the other parts of the external instruments so the only sounds being played back were the Montage MIDI parts and the the timing was very obviously not in sync with the metronome. Then I muted the Montage in Cubase and monitored the VST piano as well as the external instruments which are being synced with the Sync gen module and all connected instruments played back in perfect sync proving it is indeed the Montage parts that are losing timing because even the VST piano kept perfect timing in the MIDI domain. Before someone suggests that my MIDI parts are simply not quantized, they are definitely quantized and when I initially opened the project the Montage parts, the piano VST and the external synced instruments played back in sync like they were written to do. Like I had mentioned-the Montage MIDI parts in Cubase lose timing after loops of whatever section I choose to loop, and it gets worse and worse the more I repeat the loop. The external instruments and the piano VST loop perfectly and in time like they should. This is crazy...

Well, confirmed that the Montage was indeed the problem...somehow. As soon as I shut it off, I loaded up a multi-timbral software synth and replaced six MIDI channels with new sounds from the softsynth and had perfect sync with both the VSTs and the external instruments for the rest of the session (hours). I'm really surprised no one has mentioned anything like this before, because it basically tells me that I cannot use it with external instruments in a MIDI network that includes a DAW. Its a shame since the Montage has so many great features, but parts going out of sync renders it useless for using it with a DAW in my studio. The good news is the guitar arp MIDI clips sound excellent using the new guitar sound-even better than the original Montage guitar I originally used, so it worked out. Still had big plans for programming a bunch of scenes and using the superknob for morphing and other cool effects, so I'm sad about that. IF ANYBODY can suggest anything I could try to lock the sync please do because I really would like to continue using it for my current project if possible.

Thanks.

Yesterday, I simply tried using the arps on Montage, having no sounds loaded in the performance so only MIDI data was being transferred and once again the metronome in Cubase went way out of sync. As soon as shut off the Montage, the metronome was back in sync, hitting the MIDI notes in the MIDI editor screen on time. Jason, I know you said that MIDI doesn't cause latency but with all due respect, there is no audio being recorded or produced from Montage and latency only happens when I use it through USB MIDI. This is a definite problem and I know that some might think it's user error but I'd bet the farm on it that it isn't. There is a serious problem happening here, whereas I cannot use Montage to produce my songs with. I don't want to sell it but it's pretty much useless in my setup right now. Am I the only one experiencing this annoying latency?

Thanks.

Does this happen Only when Looping in Cubase? I have not heard the timing issues in Cubase while working with VST (Groove Agent), and Montage Midi Tracks, but I didn't loop in the DAW (Cubase/Elements).

Jason, I know you said that MIDI doesn't cause latency [...]

This is what was said:

MIDI has relatively very little data to transfer, so we do not generally concern ourselves with latency in the MIDI domain.

There is no such thing as zero latency. Even physical instruments have latency. The comment is that, relatively speaking, MIDI is a very small part of the latency pie vs. the audio path. So we, generally, do not have concerns as much with the serial bus interconnecting devices as much we do with differences in the response after MIDI has done its job. I say generally because, if you wanted to, you could introduce latency on a USB MIDI bus by placing a ton of hubs between or you could starve your PC so USB is not able to be serviced in a timely manner - breaking down communication in a more general way. Neither of these are very typical but are possible corner-cases.

Things going out of sync may not be latency related either. All things equal, latency would tend to be fairly constant and not accumulate. That's because everything is sync'd to the same clock, presumably. The time between the clock tick intended for a note and sound coming out should be roughly the same for all devices in the mix. If you start to get an accumulating type problem - this seems to imply something other than latency is involved.

One thing I cannot reproduce is the sync device you are using and possibly the VSTi. I would setup here something using a PC, a VSTi I have (Halion - came packaged with Cubase AI), not use anything other than the PC or Montage for clock, and ultimately end up with a different setup than you have.

The mystery deepens...So today I decided to use my Kurz PC3 which transmits MIDI back and forth via USB so I can record MIDI into Cubase using the Kurz (local off) and the sounds in the Kurz trigger with no discernible latency...The USB cable itself is 9 feet long and I connected it to a PC port and it's been working with the Kurz flawlessly. Used it for hours and transmitted arps with perfect timing. This tells me unequivocally it is in fact the Montage. The PC3x is literally 10 years old and the MIDI response is so good, I didn't have to readjust any recorded notes and I didn't use quantize while recording. The Montage is actually connected to a USB PCIe card port so sharing bandwidth shouldn't be an issue as it is the only device plugged into the card port. I only use hubs for dongles and USB storage; I never connect keyboards to them, so that isn't the problem either. I guess we'll never know wtf is going on...

I understand your testing has seemed to isolate things down - it seems that Sync Gen in a configuration and Cubase has tripped up someone else out there on the net. They tried lots of things before reinstalling everything (basically starting over with a fresh OS install and Cubase and the rest). Apparently, that fixed issues the user was having.

It's a fairly extreme way to fix anything - and there's perhaps not the evidence to pull that lever yet.

I just wanted to look out there at other experiences with anything (any keyboard - preferably Yamaha) + cubase + sync gen.

https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=118462

Here's a related discussion including a different tool for establishing sync: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/940990-hardware-daw-midi-sync-madness.html

There's a blurb in there about latency. The notion there is that two notes never can, in MIDI, start at the exact same time. This is true - it's because there is no standard message that says "turn these 4 notes on". Instead, you have 4 messages that come in one-at-a-time. The 1st note will happen first and the 4th will happen last with the bus latency involved. The thing is that this latency is very small because we're talking about 6 or so bytes and a few bytes for the clocking. The time it takes to transmit 100 or so bytes, even though there is latency between the 1st and 100th byte, is relatively small compared to the time it takes to manage thousands of bytes in samples through CPUs through A/D converters through other serial buses - and on and on. Generally. It does depend on the hardware and how that is tied together.

The slightly interesting thing about the Sync Gen that I read is that it works by using the audio path - not MIDI. It generates a clock signal using an audio channel. Placing the MIDI clock over the same path as audio. Not that this is any silver bullet - only that it helps me understand what the Sync Gen device is in your setup for and what it is doing. And also how I won't have anything to approximate that.

It may be worth looking at some of these links to see if you can glean anything.

Jason, thanks for the links. I'm taking a day off today so I'll definitely check them out. I appreciate your help man. Have a great day.

Well, I read the post on the Steinberg forum first and was not surprised to read that someone had a problem with Windows 10, but I'm using Windows 7, which is what I've been using for years without issue. Also, Sync Gen II Pro, which I have, has been rock-solid with syncing my external instruments. It's primary function is to sync a DAWS MIDI clock to external hardware instruments that have their own sequencers like drum machines and keyboard workstations. It does what it's supposed to do very well, despite some people (who bought the Expert Sleepers device) saying it doesn't. I have in the recent past had 5 devices connected to Sync Gen and it gave me stable, accurate clock so I was able to record my externally sequenced music into my DAW with excellent sync. I tested out the accuracy and it was spot on; I didn't have to adjust any audio using quantizing or cut/pasting. This is why it's so weird to me about the Montage...I'm not even recording audio-just MIDI notes but as soon as Montage is added to the project, it cannot keep timing. I suppose I should try latency compensation solutions. I've never had to use it before except for audio loops for external effects devices. And why is the Kurz workstation not creating this problem? I'm using it the exact same way I was using Montage-simply as MIDI input/output. The Kurz had no latency I could hear or see when I looked at the recorded MIDI notes from an arp part I recorded-and the Kurz is 10 years old. I mean I was tapping the keyboard as quickly as I could for 5 seconds at a time whereas the MIDI signal had to travel 9 feet to the computer and back again to trigger the sounds in the Kurz and I honestly could not hear the slightest latency-or see it on the MIDI grid in Cubase. I'll revisit the Montage at some point but right now I have to go with what works. Thanks again for your input Jason. Take it easy.

I’m sorry I did not see you post, but you are making things far too complicated. My suggestion. Skip the plugin sync device... folks NOT using that are synchronizing their MONTAGE’s by the thousands!

In the MONTAGE,
[UTILITY] > “Settings” > “MIDI I/O”
Set MIDI I/O to how you are sending MIDI to it, either “MIDI” (if you are using an external MIDI Interface), or “USB” (if you wish to use the MONTAGE as its own MIDI interface).
Set MIDI SYNC = MIDI (for either case)

In Cubase,
Go to TRANSPORT > PROJECT SYNCHRONIZATION SETUP... > MIDI CLOCK OUT > CLOCK DESTINATION > check the Port that is tasked with sending MIDI CLOCK to the MONTAGE:
_ If MIDI I/O = USB then place the check mark next to “MONTAGE-1 (Port 1)
_ If MIDI I/O = MIDI then place the check mark next to the device that is your MIDI Interface

As to your issues with MIDI and MONTAGE... unlike most synths/keyboards you are probably used to, the MONTAGE is possibly sending data on as many as 8 channels simultaneously. If you are not setup on the Cubase side to receive this ... oh boy!

I’ve done some “what if...” tests, as in “What if someone was unaware that an 8 Part Performance is transmitting on eight MIDI channels, simultaneously...”

If, for example, you setup eight MIDI Tracks thinking that’s the correct thing to do... you’d find this is a nightmare. Timing issues, no doubt. Each MONTAGE Part Transmits Data on the correspondingly numbered channel. A Cubase MIDI Track records all incoming MIDI data, and rechannelizes it on the way out... the result... EACH Track recorded all eight channels, and then combined them to a Single channel on the way out.

Use the Cubase “New Project” Template called “MONTAGE multi channel Record” this employs the INPUT TRANSFORMER... This causes MIDI Track 1 to only record MIDI Chanel (instead of all eight channels). MIDI track 2 records only MIDI Channel 2 and so on.

Th3 other method is to setup just one MIDI TRACK set to “channel” =ANY
“ANY” Means the MIDI data will be received and transmitted back Out on the channel it originated on... later you can divide the data by channel using the “DISSOLVE PART” function found under the MIDI menu option on the Cubase toolbar.

Hi BM, I use the sync device on all of my songs as its been my workflow for years and I've been very productive with it. Unfortunately I cannot load up a template at this point since the song is nearing completion and I had to cut the Montage out of the workflow due to the sync problems. I will definitely follow your instruction above though once I finish my current project. I am kind of hesitant about using only one MIDI track as the MIDI notes seemingly will pile up and editing would be very difficult due to the amount of notes of using say, 4 arp parts. I understand that 'dissolve part' can later separate the channels into their own track but the problem is a little more strange. I've never had more than 4 MIDI tracks for Montage parts and the last attempt at recording arps was only using one MIDI track to trigger a softsynth in the DAW, so the MIDI data was only triggering the DAW synth. All parts on the Montage performance were empty and I initialized the first part. I used the Arp out switch to generate the arp, which it did. The problem is when playing back the sequence in Cubase, the Montage MIDI track lags behind even though it isn't triggering it's own sound. Previously, I was using 4 Montage parts and when everything else was muted, The Montage parts all played in sync together but as soon as I unmuted the rest of the MIDI tracks the sync was a mess again. I have been reading up about the transformer function and set up a filter to only allow certain channels connected to each montage part but it didn't seem to make a difference, and it's very possible I missed a step when setting up the input transformer filter. I will use the Montage template in Cubase and follow your guidelines after I finish my current project. Thanks for your suggestions.

I understand and would not suggest that you simply leave it out, especially mid-project, but I truly believe that the source of the timing issue is the MIDI routing issue (and not anything to do with the Sync Gen plug-in). That is what is different about your MONTAGE from any other keyboard you have likely recorded - the MIDI routing. The fact that if you are recording multiple tracks you need to be using the INPUT TRANSFORMER you will be recording every note you play on every track for all MIDI channels. (Take a look at the MIDI > List Editor)

If you do not filter out all but the single MIDI channel - you will definitely clog up the MIDI stream. Every track records all channels

Recording the ARP OUT is also at the deeper end of the pool. Depending your settings in MONTAGE - playing back the data can conflict, if you did not Bypass the Arpeggiator on the way back in. It is possible that you did not... which would cause the ARP to trigger live and not necessarily start over - but from wherever it was when you pressed stopped.

So if you are not using the INPUT TRANSFORMER when attempting to record a MULTI PART Performance...
or if you are not BYPASSING the arpeggiators on playback ...

These could be two simple reason why your timing is seemingly off. Just FYI,