I am looking to recreate the "Bell DX" preset from the Yamaha montage inside of Dexed or a DX7

Don't think I can help you directly so be sure to wait for others to reply who can.

In reviewing the Montage/Modx and the docs for them and the DX7 I have noticed a couple of things that may be relevant.

In Montage/Modx that Bell DX performance is an AWM2 performance with three elements.

The Bell DX performance element 1 uses a waveform named 'DX Attack 1', element 2 is 'DX Attack 5' and element 3 is 'DX3'.

Those are waveform samples which is what AWM2 uses. They are in the 'Keys' main category and, curiously, the 'FM' subcategory.

I believe the DX7 is based on FM 'additive' synthesis. So you would need equivalent waveforms on the DX7.

So even though the Montage/Modx has an FM engine similar to that on the DX7 it looks like most, if not all, of the dx style performances are based on the AWM2 engine.

If they were based on the FM engine you might be able to replicate the various operator parameters to get the duplication you want.

Sorry I couldn't help more but I'm interested to see what others have to say.

[quotePost id=120673]Hello. I am looking to recreate the "Bell DX" preset from the Yamaha montage inside of Dexed or Ops7 or a DX7 (which I could open in dexed/ops7). Can anyone help? Or perhaps there is another software with presets that will do a similar sound. Thanks. [/quotePost]
There's this free Library from Yamaha that has 128 DX7 patches, maybe that one is also included:
https://shop.usa.yamaha.com/en/p/downloadables/sound-expansion-library/montage-expanded

You can find something close here:

https://patches.fm/

The site has online auditioning by clicking on the keyboard.

... then download the SYX file and import into Dexed or similar.

"bell" is something to search for - but so would be "piano" since "BELL DX" is an epiano.

Bell DX goes back to the first Motifs (Motif "Classic" ) with no provisions for FM and is carried forward from Motif to Montage/MODX.

[quotePost id=120681][quotePost id=120673]Hello. I am looking to recreate the "Bell DX" preset from the Yamaha montage inside of Dexed or Ops7 or a DX7 (which I could open in dexed/ops7). Can anyone help? Or perhaps there is another software with presets that will do a similar sound. Thanks. [/quotePost]
There's this free Library from Yamaha that has 128 DX7 patches, maybe that one is also included:
https://shop.usa.yamaha.com/en/p/downloadables/sound-expansion-library/montage-expanded [/quotePost]

That is a library for the Montage. I am looking for syx files or a vst to play the sounds directly from a laptop. Thanks.

[quotePost id=120682]You can find something close here:

https://patches.fm/

The site has online auditioning by clicking on the keyboard.

... then download the SYX file and import into Dexed or similar.

"bell" is something to search for - but so would be "piano" since "BELL DX" is an epiano.

Bell DX goes back to the first Motifs (Motif "Classic" ) with no provisions for FM and is carried forward from Motif to Montage/MODX.
[/quotePost]

All those patches sound very simple. The Bell dx is a 3 layered sound. I am really not familiar with programming the DX7 or FM synthesis in general. I am not even sure it has the ability to achieve such a 3 layered in a single patch. Perhaps what I need to do is breakdown each layer of the Bell DX preset and try to match each layer as close as possible and then layer them together.

As already mentioned "Bell DX" is likely a composite of DX7 Preset "Samples" all sweetly layered by the Yamaha AWM2 Synth Engine.

The good news is, if you have Dexed, and the original DX7 presets for it, all you need to do is identify which Sample matches which DX7 Preset.

Maybe someone here could provide isolated recordings of each "Sample" (Element) to help you pick them out.

I think you could then have 3 open "Instances" of Dexed, with each instance playing one of the 3 Presets. Hopefully this means you don't have to do any FM programming.

My MODX is not set up at the moment, but I will see if I can find any matches when it is.

[quotePost id=120686]As already mentioned "Bell DX" is likely a composite of DX7 Preset "Samples" all sweetly layered by the Yamaha AWM2 Synth Engine.

The good news is, if you have Dexed, and the original DX7 presets for it, all you need to do is identify which Sample matches which DX7 Preset.

Maybe someone here could provide isolated recordings of each "Sample" (Element) to help you pick them out.

I think you could then have 3 open "Instances" of Dexed, with each instance playing one of the 3 Presets. Hopefully this means you don't have to do any FM programming.

My MODX is not set up at the moment, but I will see if I can find any matches when it is.

[/quotePost]

Here is a link to an mp3. The first sample on the recording is the full BELL DX patch minus any effects and the 3 samples that follow are each of the individual elements that comprise it.

Take a look at an FM-X only preset Performance called "DX FM EP". This is a 2-part FM-X Performance that uses sine waves. Now solo Part 2 and/or mute Part 1. Just this single Part sounds, to me, a lot like the AWM2 Performance you're trying to replicate.

The algorithm you'd want to use would have 3 carriers with one modulator a piece and one of those modulators with feedback. Looking at the algorithm page - you can see the feedback amount then go to each operator and write down all of those values for OP3-OP8. OP1&OP2 are not used (they are at level 0).

This is enough information to duplicate this FM-X Part on some emulation software thing. Depending on the level/parameter scale (max 127 or max 99) you may need to scale the levels/etc.

Although I know Montage/MODX has a web-based program to convert DX7 (and other) SYX dumps into Montage/MODX performances - I'm not aware of anything that converts an FM-X Part/Performance into SYX that can be read into software emulation or a DX. Therefore, I think you'll need to do the programming by hand if you choose this route.

In my opinion, at certain velocities - Part 2 only of "DX FM EP" sounds close enough to "Bell DX" to replace it. AWM2 (samples) do not have a lot of character change when you hit at different velocities unless you velocity zone different sounds. A strength of FM is that as you strike at different velocities - if the operators respond to velocity - then you'll get different sounds and the response is more "alive". You get it for "free" where it's relatively expensive to simulate this in samples.

... you'll see "rate" instead of "time". Rate is the inverse of time (more time = less rate). Therefore, I normalize these by subtracting the values from 99 for time. If Montage shows the attack time as 0 then the rate would be 99-0 = 99 (rate).

[quotePost id=120692]Take a look at an FM-X only preset Performance called "DX FM EP". This is a 2-part FM-X Performance that uses sine waves. Now solo Part 2 and/or mute Part 1. Just this single Part sounds, to me, a lot like the AWM2 Performance you're trying to replicate.

The algorithm you'd want to use would have 3 carriers with one modulator a piece and one of those modulators with feedback. Looking at the algorithm page - you can see the feedback amount then go to each operator and write down all of those values for OP3-OP8. OP1&OP2 are not used (they are at level 0).

This is enough information to duplicate this FM-X Part on some emulation software thing. Depending on the level/parameter scale (max 127 or max 99) you may need to scale the levels/etc.

Although I know Montage/MODX has a web-based program to convert DX7 (and other) SYX dumps into Montage/MODX performances - I'm not aware of anything that converts an FM-X Part/Performance into SYX that can be read into software emulation or a DX. Therefore, I think you'll need to do the programming by hand if you choose this route.

In my opinion, at certain velocities - Part 2 only of "DX FM EP" sounds close enough to "Bell DX" to replace it. AWM2 (samples) do not have a lot of character change when you hit at different velocities unless you velocity zone different sounds. A strength of FM is that as you strike at different velocities - if the operators respond to velocity - then you'll get different sounds and the response is more "alive". You get it for "free" where it's relatively expensive to simulate this in samples.
[/quotePost]

Wow thanks! Will try this and report back! Have experience with subtractive synths but will be first time trying to program fm synth.

BTW: The construction of "DX FM EP" is very close to the EP preset (#1 I believe) that's a DX7 preset. There's an online DX7 emulator that initializes with the EP preset and there was very little to change. Same alg (not number - but it's the same shape). Same feedback. Very similar AEG settings (not exact, attack rate is faster -- more thunk in the beginning). Same ratios. The detuning is different. But overall pretty close. And on this emulator OP6=FM-X OP3, OP5=FM-X OP4, OP4=FM-X OP5, OP3=FM-X OP6, OP2=FM-X OP7, OP1=FM-X OP8

"DX FM EP" uses chorus and of course a DX7 doesn't have this. This is what the detuning provides in the "DX" (FM-X) sound.

@ Alex...

For clarity.... do you own or have frequent access to a Montage or MODX?

So far, I assumed you don't, and you only have access to FM Soft Synths.

If you do own a Montage/MODX... I would hope the "search and compare" process would be fairly simple.

[quotePost id=120697]@ Alex...

For clarity.... do you own or have frequent access to a Montage or MODX?

So far, I assumed you don't, and you only have access to FM Soft Synths.

If you do own a Montage/MODX... I would hope the "search and compare" process would be fairly simple.
[/quotePost]

Yes I do own a Montage. The searching I have done thus far has only brought me to trying to layer different dx7 sounds together but I am just pecking about with no experience programming FM synths. Thats why I am looking for some guidance.

[quotePost id=120692]Take a look at an FM-X only preset Performance called "DX FM EP". This is a 2-part FM-X Performance that uses sine waves. Now solo Part 2 and/or mute Part 1. Just this single Part sounds, to me, a lot like the AWM2 Performance you're trying to replicate.

The algorithm you'd want to use would have 3 carriers with one modulator a piece and one of those modulators with feedback. Looking at the algorithm page - you can see the feedback amount then go to each operator and write down all of those values for OP3-OP8. OP1&OP2 are not used (they are at level 0).

This is enough information to duplicate this FM-X Part on some emulation software thing. Depending on the level/parameter scale (max 127 or max 99) you may need to scale the levels/etc.

Although I know Montage/MODX has a web-based program to convert DX7 (and other) SYX dumps into Montage/MODX performances - I'm not aware of anything that converts an FM-X Part/Performance into SYX that can be read into software emulation or a DX. Therefore, I think you'll need to do the programming by hand if you choose this route.

In my opinion, at certain velocities - Part 2 only of "DX FM EP" sounds close enough to "Bell DX" to replace it. AWM2 (samples) do not have a lot of character change when you hit at different velocities unless you velocity zone different sounds. A strength of FM is that as you strike at different velocities - if the operators respond to velocity - then you'll get different sounds and the response is more "alive". You get it for "free" where it's relatively expensive to simulate this in samples.
[/quotePost]

I took a listen to the DX FM EP and it doesn't have the high harmonic that the Bell DX has on element 1. Need something like that to layer it with.